Urgent - Where do i stand??

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Rockchick_uk

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I brought my new horse on 10/07/10 and had a 5* vetting done as i brought him for County Showing and explained this to the vets.

All the vetinary report showed was he has a lump which is a possible sarcoid and throws his front feet at a trot which im not bothered about as sarcoids can be treated and hes a heavy horse so throwing his feet is nothing really.

Anyway the 2nd week i had him we started having lessons, loads of walk and max of 5 mins trot as hes unfit and unbalanced as hes never been schooled and we were just getting to know each other.

Anway at the end of the 2nd week he went lame and has been lame ever since, the vets have diagnosed significant changes to the lower joints which indicates spavin caused by a conformational fault on his back end.

Basically he walks one hoof in front of another (my vet says he has a walk better than cindy crawford!)

Anyway this means that he will never be able to be shown and at the moment im not sure if he will ever become sound!

I cant go back to the old owner as they are no longer in the country (they were selling cause they were emigrating) so have just called up the vets who did the vetting and they are calling me back.

Where do i stand with this? please help
 
Bear in mind that bone spavin is not the end of the world for you and your horse. My boy had a bone spavin when he was 12 (now 21) due to his fairly straight hocks (a stocky cob). He was operated on, and has never looked back - has jumped, dressage, le trec, sponsored rides etc and I show him every year in the summer in local shows in cob classes, condition classes, and latterly veteran classes and he does really well (sounds big-headed but want to do him justice!). So don't despair!
 
No No Spavin doesnt bother me, my TB has had it for the last 6 years so i know how to treat it etc, im just bothered that the vets didnt pick the conformation fault up thus landing me with a potentially huge vet bill and alot of heartache for both me and the horse!

Especially as i will never show him due to his movement
 
Get your vet and a second opinion to tell you whether the vet that did the vetting should have picked up on this.

If it should have, then see a solicitor maybe?

Good luck :)
 
I'm not too sure if vets should pick up confo faults...? Maybe if they are likely to cause problems rather than purely cosmetic - I'm not too sure either way but maybe someone else can confirm.

If you bought him to county show and its a big enough conformational fault (what and how bad is it?)' is there any reason why you yourself didn't pick it up? And did you see him walked/trotted up? Was he doing his cindy crawford moves then?
 
I picked up on the strange movement behind hence why i wanted the vetting, i specifically told the vets i was concerned with his behind movement etc.

My vets have said that this should of been picked up on.

when i called them up to ask a senior partner to call me i asked the receptionist if they they pick up on conformation faults on a 5 star and she said yes, so they have shot themselves in the foot.

Will let you know whats said when they call me back
 
head on block here, but if you were concerned about his action, and yet wanted to show him at county level, why did you buy him?
am prepared to be shot at. tin hat on. :)
 
Basically this horse is a heavy percheron who has had no schooling and is very unbalanced, hes a big baby! so his action was bound to look funny as he is very immature in his body and had no turning capabilities before he came to me.

When i went to see him the girl was turning him in 5-10 meter circles as there was no school on their land, it was obvious then that he had no clue what a circle was and his back end just seemed to swing behind his front, he was not lame but just looked unbalanced.

I asked the vet to check the back end as im no expert and i got stung when i brought my last horse (the one with the spavin) and this time i wanted to make sure he would be fine for what i wanted him to do, the vet said he was sound and there was nothing that would concern him so i brought him!
 
A 5 stage will pick up on confirmational faults, but only if they are major enough to be likely to give rise to lameness issues. If there is a confirmational prob that isn't a health prob, but is important for appearence and showing, then it is your job to pick it up.

A vet can't be expected to know what is required in different disaplins, all they can say is if they are likely to stand up to the level of work asked. A 5-stage vetting isn't the be all and end all by any stretch. Showing (as equestrian sports go) isn't particularly hard on the horse so you might find that the horse is ok-ed for the level of work you want of him, yet the horse can still be incorrect for showing if he isn't a correct enough example. That aspect isn't the vets prob. They are just there for health.

(hides behind skewbald_again and nicks tin hat!)
 
skewbald_again said:
head on block here, but if you were concerned about his action, and yet wanted to show him at county level, why did you buy him?
am prepared to be shot at. tin hat on. :)
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I'm going to don my tin hat and second that. I wouldn't buy a horse for county showing if I was in any way concerned about it's movement.
 
Rockchick_uk said:
Basically this horse is a heavy percheron who has had no schooling and is very unbalanced, hes a big baby! so his action was bound to look funny as he is very immature in his body and had no turning capabilities before he came to me.

When i went to see him the girl was turning him in 5-10 meter circles as there was no school on their land, it was obvious then that he had no clue what a circle was and his back end just seemed to swing behind his front, he was not lame but just looked unbalanced.

I asked the vet to check the back end as im no expert and i got stung when i brought my last horse (the one with the spavin) and this time i wanted to make sure he would be fine for what i wanted him to do, the vet said he was sound and there was nothing that would concern him so i brought him!
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Sounds like it was always going to be tricky then. He would have been a risk to buy as you would have brought him (from the sounds of it) with the expectation that his way of going was due to being an unbalanced baby. Sadly that is a risk. If you are now finding problems then it can still be because of his babyness, or could be a vet issue. Given time and schooling you might well find then when he learns to carry and use himself correctly his way of going improves.

(I took a risk on my mare as she had a poor unbalanced way of going. I reckoned on this being because she was poorly muscled and schooled and so hoped I could improve her. With time, a great farrier and much work fortunatly she has improved immensly, but it was always going to be a risk. Is the way with horses unless they are currently doing exactly what you want to do with them, you just have to hope they turn out how you want.)

Good luck with your horse.
 
itsme123 said:
I'm going to don my tin hat and second that. I wouldn't buy a horse for county showing if I was in any way concerned about it's movement.
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Please read my reply!

You seem to be trying to shoot me in the foot for this which i find strange? I am in no way a professional or a conformation expert so i did the sensible thing, i went and got a 5 star vetting and discussed my concerns with a professional.... simple?

The professional gave the horse a pass with no mention of the action on the back end, even when i questioned it, he confirmed there was nothing to worry about.

The horse in question is a big baby and a heavy draft horse so you can imagine what a unschooled unbalanced, confused 18hh baby looks like being turned in tight circles??
 
Rockchick_uk said:
Please read my reply!

You seem to be trying to shoot me in the foot for this which i find strange? I am in no way a professional or a conformation expert so i did the sensible thing, i went and got a 5 star vetting and discussed my concerns with a professional.... simple?

The professional gave the horse a pass with no mention of the action on the back end, even when i questioned it, he confirmed there was nothing to worry about.

The horse in question is a big baby and a heavy draft horse so you can imagine what a unschooled unbalanced, confused 18hh baby looks like being turned in tight circles??
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The thing is you went to a health expert for a showing question. If you are after buying a show horse, but aren't confident in judging the confirmation, then I would find a friend or show producer who could help you out. A vet just won't be able to help you with that. The 5 stage vetting is basically, is the horse healthy and can it be judged to be put together well enough and is healthy enough to have a good chance of standing up to the level of work wanted. That is pretty much it I'm afraid.
 
Many thanks Glosgirl for understanding the situation.

My farrier has now put on lateral extensions to try and improve his movement and hes wearing sausage boots 24/7 to stop him cutting his legs to peices.

My vets have confirmed that this should of been mentioned in the original vetting as this movement has caused changes to the hock joints and the horse may need to have them drilled at a later stage.

In a perfect world i want my vetting fee back and maybe them to cover the fees for the diagnosis of my vets.
 
Yes i wanted the animal in question for eventual showing but my concern now is the health aspect for this horse, as a health professional he should of known that this action would of caused significant pressure to the joints etc. Especially as soon as we started working him ie 5 mins of trot and 25 mins of walking a day for 5 days made him lame and he continues to be lame a month later??

Obviously its hard to explain the situation, if you had of been there then you would understand where im coming from.
 
If his way of going was poor enough at the vetting to suggest a high chance of future injuries and damage then I think it is fair to expect the vet to pick that up. I would get a second opinion from your vet and then approach the original vets with this info and explain your expectations of what you would be happy with to conclude this issue.

Best of luck with your boy. You would be astonished at the difference good shoeing, time to grow and develop, and time spent schooling can make! One year on my mare is unrecognisable as the poor wonky thing I brought home (and she was 7ish so all growing done, still time to improve)!! Her vetting actually brought her up as lame and unbalanced. There is no lameness at all, she just needed to be helped out a bit!
 
Not that I'm going to be of much help but at 18hands and still a baby, It's going to be hard to write anything in stone.

To vet for showing I would expect movement and conformation to be an important clean sheet? You have bought him for that purpose so he needed to move straight at the least?

I have to say I subscribe to the theory that the bigger the horse (and 18 hands is pushing it some) the greater the possibility of soundness issues.
 
My vets couldnt carry out the vetting due to the distance i travelled to see the horse.

I have just spoke to the vet who carried out the vetting and he wants a full vetinary report, a letter from my Riding Instructor and farrier as well as photos of the self inflicted injuries and a video to show the horses movement.

Hes notifying his insurance of the negligence claim and will be in contact with me next week.
 
I'm sorry, but I don't think vets are required to inform you of the ins and outs of a horse's conformation, unless it is going to effect them doing the job they're to be doing. However, I don't think vets are supposed to know exasctly what is required for each discipline.

I guess if people want to be sure during the vetting process, they should have xrays etc done.
 
Basically this horse is a heavy percheron who has had no schooling and is very unbalanced, hes a big baby! so his action was bound to look funny as he is very immature in his body and had no turning capabilities before he came to me.
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Wrong, wrong, wrong.

If a horse moves 'wrong' - it is wrong. Doesn't matter weather he's a baby or not.

Did you discuss the result of the vetting with the vet on the day? I'm assuming you were present?

What 'expert' eye did you take with you when assessing whether this was showing material? Why did you buy a horse that from the outset was clearly not up for showing?? What do you now expect the vet to do?
 
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I am confused.

You have had this horse for 2 weeks now. Are you saying that you didnt notice that he/she walk in this fashion for the whole 2 weeks?

When you went to see him (before purchase) surely you asked for him to be walked and trotted up (in a straight line) since this would be important for showing?
 
and, if he needs boots on '24/7' - did he not injure himself before?

Like guido16 I can't quite understand how you could have missed such a major thing when you went to see him.

Did you see him ridden?
 
from another angle....

Have you had the blood samples taken at the vetting tested? To make sure the old owners hadn't given him pain killers to make him sound?

It sounds to me that when you got him, his dodgy movement and confo made him go lame very quickly on very little work!
 
I'm sorry to hear this has happened to you so soon after getting your horse. I have also been in the position of two weeks after purchase my new horse went very lame.
I had a five stage vetting done, was there when vet was vetting him (in fact it was me who rode him for the vetting) we put that horse through every test, the vet took her time and went over him with a fine tooth comb, he was 100% sound and so very, very fit.....but he still went lame.
The way I saw it the vetting was a moment in time, a snap shot in the horses life, and at the time of the vetting his arthritis was not bothering him..two weeks, new yard, and a different routine later...it was.
I'm afraid I feel that if you wanted to buy this horse for showing it was up to you to investigate this horses hind leg conformation/ odd action, by getting an expert set of eyes to watch the horse and to request x-rays with the vetting. Your vet wouldn't have had a crystal ball with him that day I am sure.
 
Rockchick_uk said:
My vets couldnt carry out the vetting due to the distance i travelled to see the horse.

I have just spoke to the vet who carried out the vetting and he wants a full vetinary report, a letter from my Riding Instructor and farrier as well as photos of the self inflicted injuries and a video to show the horses movement.

Hes notifying his insurance of the negligence claim and will be in contact with me next week.
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I may be being cynical but that reads as if he's gonna try and base the horses problems on injuries that occurred after the vetting. I cannot see any vet not doing their utmost to defend their position, his livelihood and reputation depend on it.

Good luck it all sounds a huge blow.
 
When we have had vettings done vet always asks what we want to do with it so they know if anything will go against it.Have had horse 'fail' but be suitable for my needs.
Was the vet aware you wanted to show?
Have known a horse fail because it 'might' get navicular which I found strange but presumed it was a confo thing that showed it may be predisposed to it.
 
galaxy23 said:
from another angle....

Have you had the blood samples taken at the vetting tested? To make sure the old owners hadn't given him pain killers to make him sound?

It sounds to me that when you got him, his dodgy movement and confo made him go lame very quickly on very little work!
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This is excatly what I was thinking, what he has been diagnosed with only 2 weeks of light work I don't understand how he could have gone that lame so quickly, what age is he. I had conformational faults picked up on a 5 stage vetting for a previous horse, he also had his "funny" trot action in the hind legs picked up on, which we later found out was from trotter lines in his breeding, my current horse has a slight toe out conformation and the vet at the time commencted on it and pointed it in case it would be a issue for me but did not write it on the vetting certificate, whether that is normal I'm not sure.

With the old owners emigrating I have my suspisions they may have known about it and he was buted for your trial of him and maybe the vetting as well, knowing full well they would out the country when you find out... or is that just my suspisous mind.

If you can get the vets who carried out the vetting to admit negligence I would be expecting the full value of the horse plus all vets fees occured back, not just the fee for the vetting. If you are insured for lose of use this may also be a line to follow to get your money back, but you are very close to the 2 week limit for insurance cliams on it.
 
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