Using Baileys Stud Balancer with foals?

[Holly831]

Farrier came today and Rocky is now quite 'upright' in front. He commented last trim (every 4 weeks) and left his toes longer but it has got worse. His bone has grown more quickly than his tendons and so needs sorting quickly.

I have been advised to wean him - which I have done rather abruptly today (I hate doing it this way). He is out with his field mates and Mum is in for now.

He is 5.5 months old and stands over 14hh at his wither and taller at his qtrs.
He is out 24/7 with ad lib haylage (only the last 3 weeks as we had grass until then!)

I had intended to leave him on his dam until Feb next year and wean him at 8+ months

Question - I started feeding Baileys on advice from their rep (following The BEF series) I feed at the recommended levels of 5 to 6 cups split over 2 feeds per day with a small handful of Afa A and fibre beet to mix it in.

Could this be why he is overgrowing? I was assured the balancer would 'support' his growth - he was a large foal when he went to BEF at 6 weeks old!

Help!! I don't want to make this worse, he is such a lovely foal and a keeper for us. Do I stop the feed all together?

Thanks for any replies

 

[chrissie1]

The only foal I ever fed it to, as advised by Baileys and of right age to start it, went footy on it with raised DP. Cutting it out, and all feed for a few days, and stabling cured that. This was most def. feed related.
I have also fed Suregrow to foals that weren't genetically related and both shot up with an upright foot that required many trims, stabling overnight with hay at chest height etc, to put right.
I have had a hugely experienced remedial farrier, who only works on vet. reccomendations, to trim them (neither belonged to me but were here at livery) and he said every time that these days we oversupplement mares while in foal, and foals after birth. At a time when so much more is known about nutrition he is busier than he has ever been, and he is reaching retirement age and travels all over the place to studs.
So, no I don't feed foals stud balancers!

 

[only_me]

Know nothing about breeding, but

5-6 cups is rather a lot?

We feed the stud balancer to our horses (eventers) and they get 3 cups a day (1 and a half cup in morning, same at night) with chaff (plus oats if needed)!

Its something like 32% protein, so could very well be the reason he is growing so quickly!

 

[Clodagh]

My vet is opposed to foals having anything more than a mineral lick, and she also said I should watch my hay as we cut it early this year as it was so dry, she said it could quite likely have the protein levels of stud cubes, so I would watch the haylage as well.

 

[GinnieRedwings]

I use Bailey's Stud Balancer on my mare when she is nursing only - and I stop the foal from sharing her dinner. My guess would be that Rocky's bones are almost certainly growing too fast because of the food he eats. I wouldn't think it was a brand-specific or product specific issue though. Foals and weanlings don't need hard feed - I agree with Chrissie1 and believe it is the root of all developmental evils.

I like Bailey's feeds but I would NEVER feed anything at the manufacturer's recommended level... It is in their interest that we overfeed our horses, but not in the horses' interest.

I give my youngsters a spoonful (literally) of soaked speedybeet & grassnuts and a pinch of Hi-Fi once a day to keep them busy when the others are eating, just enough to mix a scoop of vitamin supplement. And ad lib hay (not haylage, which is too rich). All to ensure they grow slowly as nature intended.

An interesting fact: one of my friends just bought a 5 year old horse. She spent £9,000 on him and looked at very many in the £5,000-£10,000 price bracket. The one she bought was the 5th she had vetted. The other 4 failed the vet on OCD - a problem which is believed (by vets & farriers) to be brought on by overfeeding weanlings and yearlings - if owners carry on trying to make their yearlings look like 4 year olds (and by that I mean have meat on their ribs, which they shouldn't have at that age) and shove tons of over-rich hardfeed down them, we are going to lose a whole generation's worth of excellent breeding to developmental diseases like OCD, until people wake up and feed hay & a vit & min lick or supplement only and accept that between the ages of roughly 8 months to 20 months, horses look gangly, weedy, sometimes ugly, but they will last longer!

Rant over, sorry

 

[eventrider23]

I love BSB and feed it to all late term mares and ones with foals at foot however I would not feed it to foals generally under the age of 6 months (although they say 4 months) and as a rule I do not like feeding it to foals as I do feel it keeps them in such good condition that they end up growing to fast. Instead I tend to feed my foals D&H Foal Mix OR if BSB NEVER at the manufacturers recommended levels as they are so high.....I mean it states I should feed a weanling the same amount in some instances as a fully grown mare with foal at foot! And so if I do feed it, I tend to go 'by eye' and how the horse is looking.

My current weanling and yearling are on nothing but good old Dr Green as my new winter grazing is so lush, they need nothing else. If I see them needing something I will start first with a Vit/Mineral lick and then hay before I go down the hard feed route.

 

[Holly831]

Gennie, I have only ever 'fed' my foals adlib hay/haylage in the past but after the BEF the Baileys rep convinced me as Rocky was such a big foal he 'needed' the suppliment to support him. They actually recommend 6 to 7 cups a day in winter

My foals are normally the standard gangly yearlings etc (I hate to see them prepared for the show ring as over mature babies) I like them to be out (rugless) 24/7 if at all possible and well handled but not over handled 'in your face' youngsters.

I do have Rocky Red Field licks in my fields and will stop the Baileys over the next week.

I am a strong believer that we overfeed in foal mares causing problems with huge foals too.

In future I will listen to my gut instinct instead of a rep!!

 

[sallyf]

Personally we dont feed a balancer but we do feed and always have fed stud cubes to our in foal mares and foals right up until they are 2 years old.
In 20 odd years we havnt had a case of ocd and all of our stock sold have passed vettings whether they have been 4 months or 4 years old so i can only say it how it is for us.
Iv'e never had a foal go upright either.
I do believe some of it is genetics though and some i believe is caused by a mismatch between mares and stallions, ie when someone puts a small slight mare to a much bigger much heavier stallion which causes the foal to lay down bone too quickly as it trys to grow to what it genetics are telling it too ,too quickly .
We tend to breed like to like and keep the genetics simple and that seems to work.
Personally it would be no good me feeding my mares balancer as they just wouldnt keep condition on as well as i like .

 

[AJBliss]

I am planning to put my big colt on Surelimb at weaning--he doesn't need any "extras" really, so ad-lib forage when in, then alfa + Surelimb for feeds. Maybe Carron oil in the spring when I want to take him places. His dam has been on it throughout pregnancy and lactation, as she's a good doer and has still made him a bigger boy than I expected.

 

[Alec Swan]

.......In future I will listen to my gut instinct instead of a rep!!

It sounds to me as if you've learned a lesson, which will last you for ever!! There's a world of difference between a youngster which is "ribby", and another which is poor. Why is it that we look at a youngsters ribs, when we judge their condition? Look at the animals back. If it's flat, as in well covered, then that should be our yardstick.

I once had a youngster with OCD, and it was my fault, because I listened to the advice which I should have ignored. If I have another, then it'll be for another reason.

I work on the basis that I NEVER believe what I'm told, by some one who's trying to sell me something!

Interesting and thought provoking responses, from everyone.

Alec.

 

[Toast]

good god 5-6 cups is a lot!
I always find baileys 'reccommended amounts' are always ludicrously huge.
Im not a massive fan of baileys stud balancer as it is, overpriced and you can get just as good for less. I use D&H Suregrow.
However if your noticing problems that could be feed related id cut it out now.
my 7 month old tbxwb is on nothing but haylage.
x

 

[tikino]

having listen to a rep in the past and ending up with a youngster with a severe case of ocd and being pts i only every feed my youngsters fibre so the are on hifi and fibre nuts and they look great and are growing steadily.

 

[GinnieRedwings]

Holly831 & Sallyf, I wasn't at all being personal when I climbed on my soap box and ranted and apologise if I upset anyone.

I am not trying to say everyone else is wrong and I am right either and my personal experience of breeding is minute in comparison to some people on this forum. I do read a lot and the latest research does suggest that a lot of bone development issues are due to overfeeding and "pushing" babies through their skinny stage. I remember growing up in France with a generation of Selle Francais horses being lost before their teens to navicular disease and the finger being pointed at poor nutrition in early life - I believe the situation is now much better with large studs in Normandy working to rectify the problem and this rising trend in OCD could be controlled similarly.

It has to be acknowledged that horse "nutrition" has evolved hugely in the last 10-20 years and the nutritional contents of stud cubes has no doubt changed an awful lot in the process.

Sally, you might be right that there is a breed influence, though in the case of my friend's doomed horse purchase, there were 2 IDXTB & 2 Warmbloods, so no real trend there. There were no pure TB, though the size of the "trial" may not be admissible from a scientific point of view

Will anyone agree with me that there is a whole section of the equestrian world, who keep enormously fat animals and call them looking "well"? Isn't it a trend of our Western societies to pour our collective fear of missing out and our collective guilt in the face of attrocities like Amersham and compensate by stuffing our animals full of food and wrapping them in cotton wool in the mistaken belief that treating them "better" than our fellow human beings somehow makes us better people?

 

[millitiger]

I've never fed any of mine hard feed before weaning.

Afterwards they get haylage, grass and about 1 mug of Topspec a day.

Vinnie was huge as a weanling and as a 4yro now is 18hh. he has always had plenty to eat with ad-lib haylage and his Topspec but looked lanky right up until he was a 3yro and even now still looks weedy some days.

Fingers crossed you notice a quick improvement in your boy.

 

[sallyf]

Holly831 & Sallyf, I wasn't at all being personal when I climbed on my soap box and ranted and apologise if I upset anyone.

I am not trying to say everyone else is wrong and I am right either and my personal experience of breeding is minute in comparison to some people on this forum. I do read a lot and the latest research does suggest that a lot of bone development issues are due to overfeeding and "pushing" babies through their skinny stage. I remember growing up in France with a generation of Selle Francais horses being lost before their teens to navicular disease and the finger being pointed at poor nutrition in early life - I believe the situation is now much better with large studs in Normandy working to rectify the problem and this rising trend in OCD could be controlled similarly.

It has to be acknowledged that horse "nutrition" has evolved hugely in the last 10-20 years and the nutritional contents of stud cubes has no doubt changed an awful lot in the process.

Sally, you might be right that there is a breed influence, though in the case of my friend's doomed horse purchase, there were 2 IDXTB & 2 Warmbloods, so no real trend there. There were no pure TB, though the size of the "trial" may not be admissible from a scientific point of view

Will anyone agree with me that there is a whole section of the equestrian world, who keep enormously fat animals and call them looking "well"? Isn't it a trend of our Western societies to pour our collective fear of missing out and our collective guilt in the face of attrocities like Amersham and compensate by stuffing our animals full of food and wrapping them in cotton wool in the mistaken belief that treating them "better" than our fellow human beings somehow makes us better people?

Didnt think anything was personal at all far from it
Just relaying my experience .

 

[Holly831]

Didnt think anything was personal at all far from it
Just relaying my experience .

Me too!!

I am a appauled at the 'fatness' and over growth of a lot os the foals I see. I just can't believe I have let this happen to my gorgeous Rocky!!

He was such a big boy I trusted what I was told and feel I have badly let him down. I hate having to wean him so abruptly although so far he has been good as gold and left Mum no problems when I put him back out again (it's a fair walk too)

I will post some pics of him taken today later so you can see he isn't an overfed fat baby - he is 'what it says on the tin' a 5.5 month old colt - still very cute but about to hit the 'ugly' stage. You can't see his ribs as his coat is soooo thick he looks like a woolly teady bear

I really appreciate the replies given and will cut out all hard feed within the next few days (just want to wean him off!!)

Thanks again B x

 

[CBFan]

I too suffered at the hands of a feed balancer. My cleveland bay filly was in the first crop of foals that her breeder fed on topspec at weaning. Sadly at 8 months old she was diagnosed with physitis and it was later confirmed that she had OCD in her stifles. Breeder has now returned to simply providing add lib hay and access to a vit and min block despite 'advice' from feed co rep.

OP, I hope you've caught your boy early - it sounds like you have! good luck with the weaning.

 

[Smile_and_Wave]

I dont like the baileys product and the woman who always advises around is talks total crap and suggest the most insane feed regimes for horses, for comparison my weanling gets one cup of spillers youngstock pellets and is gorwing steadily and well and is a good weight he also get ad lib hayledge

ive looked after one foal with a growth problem like yours he literally was fed very very little to try stunt his growth for a few months in the hope that he would grow more regularly and was weaned early, have you got the vets advice it is a condition that requires quite a lot of management

 

[jaypeebee]

Ive used Baileys stud balancer for years and years. I feed 2 cups each day to my weanlings and have not had any problems.

 

[Holly831]

Thanks, I have phoned my vet for advice and he is coming out to have a quick look tomorrow when he is passing. His advice over the phone after speaking to my farrier was to wean quickly, which I have now done and Rocky does seem quite settled now (he has stopped shouting for Mum at the moment anyway)

Farrier seems to think there will be no long term problem as long as we can limit his growth now. Someone suggested gelding him to set him back so I will ask the vet re that tomorrow as well.

Again - back to gut instinct I think and learn to trust what I feel rather than a very very good sales speak!! A hard lesson learned but hopefully no long term damage

 

[nijinsky]

I use Topspec stud balancer & have done since weaned. I've had no problems at all. I do not however feed the recommended amount. My two, now 17 months & 15 months are on 1 scoop of Alfa A mollasses free, 2 cups of the stud balancer, once per day and adlib hay. They are living out and have a field lick.

 

[CBFan]

Thanks, I have phoned my vet for advice and he is coming out to have a quick look tomorrow when he is passing. His advice over the phone after speaking to my farrier was to wean quickly, which I have now done and Rocky does seem quite settled now (he has stopped shouting for Mum at the moment anyway)

Farrier seems to think there will be no long term problem as long as we can limit his growth now. Someone suggested gelding him to set him back so I will ask the vet re that tomorrow as well.

Again - back to gut instinct I think and learn to trust what I feel rather than a very very good sales speak!! A hard lesson learned but hopefully no long term damage

I would say the changes you are making to his diet should be sufficient to steady his growth. sounds like he's going to be a big lad anyway but hopefully cutting the protein down will steady his growth rather than encouraging big spurts...

I do wonder, those of you who just feed a couple of cupfulls of your chosen balancer rather than the recomended and therefore 'balanced' dose, whether your youngsters are indeed getting the correct balance of nutrients :{ ... thats all!

 

[chrissie1]

My Han x Dutch/TB yearling stand well over 16hh, although she was born at the end of feb so is not far off two in reality.
She is in fab condition, and no one who sees her, and doesn't know my feed regime, ever believes me when I say she has never, ever, had stud feed, balancer etc but has had a few (currently 3 coffee mugs a day) of Spillers HF cubes, HiFi, D and H totally unmolassed beet and Benevit. She has also had soaked grass nuts, low energy ones, when the grass has gone, and ad lib home made haylage, made dry so it is hay rather than lush haylage, cut late in year to keep levels low.
I did aim for a bigger foal from the mare when I chose the stallion......

 

[K27]

I have used BSB for my foal for a short time in the past- when I purchased him I was advised to feed him 6 cups a day(!!)- ...... to a little Cob foal who is naturally a good doer..... I thought to myself theres no way I'm doing that so I fed him a mug per feed, I found he bulked out too much on it and could have started looking top heavy despite me feeding less than the recommended amount, so I changed him to the Spillers Gro and Win (as my others are all fed Spillers) and he looked better and more as he should on it, not so bulked out looking and his growing is slow and steady, no foot problems either.

 

[aimeetb]

I do wonder, those of you who just feed a couple of cupfulls of your chosen balancer rather than the recomended and therefore 'balanced' dose, whether your youngsters are indeed getting the correct balance of nutrients :{ ... thats all![/QUOTE]


CBFan, I know I am sorry, I always come back to you! LOL!

I am still in such a worry and turmoil about my filly!

Your comment above was my worry when I was just feeding her hay and a vit and min lick, a stud vet said she should be given a balancer to make sure (as you said above) she is getting all the vits and mins she needs in the correct quantities.

Having spoken to Baileys and D&H I thought the lady at D & H really listedned to my problem and advised that I fed her D&H Ultimate Balancer as you only need to feed 100g per 100kg body weight so for her this would be 250 - 275g per day which I thought was much better than feeding her pounds of the BSB or 1.5 pounds of the Suregrow to get the right levels.

It is about 26% protein but with the amount being fed this would only be around 75 - 80g of protein per day which she said is close to just over a kilo of good hay! This really convinced me, also is has MSM in it for soothing her joints, digestion aids and all the vits and mins. I did ask her about just going on Surelimb but she said that the small amount of protein would be good for her during the winter and then maybe swap to the Surelimb and plain chaff in the summer when the grass is providing more.

She is still looking a bit ribby which is what I wanted but has a lovely coat, flat back and her legs and joints are cool, she could be a bit ribbier and it would be ok but I assume this will happen as we progress through winter.

I am so worried that I am doing the wrong thing for her but just thought that with a bit extra now, when the grass comes back I have something to take away to balance out the effect of the grass.

Sorry to hi-jack but CBFan, GinnieRedwings, Maesfen, JanetGeorge all you oracles that I cant remeber your names! Please help me sort my head out! Is this wrong?

x

 

[aimeetb]

Also CBFan, sorry never asked, how did you find the OCD in your filly??

The physitis I assume was easily spottable (in my case anyway) as you see small lumps but how did you know to check for OCD? I am so worried, mine has the Physitis lumps but all else seems fine to me, what would make me question whether she has OCD? x

 

[Tempi]

Not read the replies but 5-6 cups is loads for a foal? My mare who is in foal has 3 cups in the morning with a scoop of chaff and the same in the evening and she is a good doer.

My 2 1/2yr old gets stud balancer and he has 2 cups a day with a stubbs scoop of sugar beat.... I have never had any growth problems with him, he did have a massive spurt in the summer but nothing different to any other youngster.

I would phone Bailey's back and say you are worried your foal is growing too quickly and get them to suggest something else.

 

[CBFan]

Also CBFan, sorry never asked, how did you find the OCD in your filly??

The physitis I assume was easily spottable (in my case anyway) as you see small lumps but how did you know to check for OCD? I am so worried, mine has the Physitis lumps but all else seems fine to me, what would make me question whether she has OCD? x

I have a VERY good vet! He is very experienced with this sort of thing and spotted the swelling on her stifles. he said he was pretty sure she had it but as we couldn't xray at the time because we had strangles at my yard and she couldn't be taken off the yard, I had to wait a couple of months to confirm it. He was right.

If you are really concerned it is worth getting xrays done to check. stifles are the most common location for this but the hocks are also common - but swelling is easier to spot.

Just keep your eyes open for any fluidy swelling and tenderness on any joints and call your vet if you are at all worried.

 

[CBFan]

I do wonder, those of you who just feed a couple of cupfulls of your chosen balancer rather than the recomended and therefore 'balanced' dose, whether your youngsters are indeed getting the correct balance of nutrients :{ ... thats all!

CBFan, I know I am sorry, I always come back to you! LOL!

I am still in such a worry and turmoil about my filly!

Your comment above was my worry when I was just feeding her hay and a vit and min lick, a stud vet said she should be given a balancer to make sure (as you said above) she is getting all the vits and mins she needs in the correct quantities.

Having spoken to Baileys and D&H I thought the lady at D & H really listedned to my problem and advised that I fed her D&H Ultimate Balancer as you only need to feed 100g per 100kg body weight so for her this would be 250 - 275g per day which I thought was much better than feeding her pounds of the BSB or 1.5 pounds of the Suregrow to get the right levels.

It is about 26% protein but with the amount being fed this would only be around 75 - 80g of protein per day which she said is close to just over a kilo of good hay! This really convinced me, also is has MSM in it for soothing her joints, digestion aids and all the vits and mins. I did ask her about just going on Surelimb but she said that the small amount of protein would be good for her during the winter and then maybe swap to the Surelimb and plain chaff in the summer when the grass is providing more.

She is still looking a bit ribby which is what I wanted but has a lovely coat, flat back and her legs and joints are cool, she could be a bit ribbier and it would be ok but I assume this will happen as we progress through winter.

I am so worried that I am doing the wrong thing for her but just thought that with a bit extra now, when the grass comes back I have something to take away to balance out the effect of the grass.

Sorry to hi-jack but CBFan, GinnieRedwings, Maesfen, JanetGeorge all you oracles that I cant remeber your names! Please help me sort my head out! Is this wrong?

x[/QUOTE]

This is what annoys me about nutritionists advice. Your filly has a growth disorder due to her growing too fast for her own body to keep up with. She needs no encouragement to grow any more! winter or not!

When you compare the protein content of Surelimb - 7% you will see there is a vast difference! and this is the blurb that D&H have on their website about it. I've highlighted the relevant bit for you... I really have no idea why you've been advised by them to the contrary...

"A broad spectrum vitamin and mineral supplement specifically formulated for breeding stock and horses in intense work. Surelimb provides optimal levels of vitamins, minerals and amino acids needed for maintenance of a healthy Musculo-skeletal system. Ideal for fast growing weanlings at risk of developmental problems or to balance the diet of horses fed straight cereals."

As for your worry about when the grass comes through... just cut out her hay! (which I am assuming you probably do anyway.. and cut down on chaff etc so that she just gets a handfull to carry her surelimb...

I add Glucosamine and MSM (gold label) to my boys feed too just for peace of mind...

 

[aimeetb]

Thanks CBFan, I'll keep an eye on it and ask the vet to have a look next time he is down just to be sure unless I see anything before then! x