Using shotguns near horses

[beckybue]

I would be grateful if someone could give me some advice. Our local gamekeeper has for years used a shotgun at night right next to our paddock, frightening and disturbing us and our ponies. Also, the gamekeeper’s employers, the local farmers, organise pheasant shoots every season and pitch their pegs right by our ponies’ field, on one memorable occasion putting a peg 5 m. from our stable. We have complained to them but generally get abuse in return. The police can take out an ASBO against the farmers and their gamekeeper as far as the impact on us and our children is concerned, but apparently horses have no legal protection against shooting and any other antisocial behaviour that may frighten them. This I am completely amazed by! Has anyone reading this ever been affected by shotgun use near horses? Educating the farmers about horses and guns is pointless because they own point-to-pointers themselves and completely know the score - funnily enough they don’t shoot anywhere near their own stables…... Please help!
R Hyde Parker, Wretham, Norfolk

 

[*hic*]

My elderly Welsh objects to the men with guns being in the next door field - however it's the men being there he doesn't like, he couldn't give a stuff about the guns. Shooting in our own field is nigh on impossible as the horses all wander over to "help". Being bunted in the back by a TB looking for a cuddle tends to put the best gun off his aim.

So sorry, no help here I'm afraid, my horses really aren't bothered.

 

[jrp204]

We have held a clay shoot in the paddock next door to the horses, they pay no attention to the guns.

 

[gugglebum]

You need to find a way to co-exist I'm afraid, as I can't imagine either of you has any intention of going anywhere! Try and make friends with the gamekeeper. A bit of charm can go a long way. The problem is the drives are well thought out and established, but you could ask if there's any way they can reconfigure the drives, or reconsider where the pegs go. I doubt they'll move the drive but possibly the pegs.

Before the season starts you can ask for a list of shoot days so you can move them a bit further away from the guns the night before. At least you don't have to worry about it for a while now.

 

[Hen]

My sympathies but I don't think there is anything that really can be done from a legal/welfare standpoint? I had a similar situation at a previous yard where the farmer ran private shoots all over the farm and through the horse paddocks, we were even required to switch off the electric fencing during the shoots - great! (Although having assessed the standard of some of the shooting, horses were kept firmly stabled!) We also had the Army doing night-time helicopter landings in the paddocks, which was even more exciting.

It's tempting to get one's own back by taking up mounted shooting as a sideline sport

 

[marmalade76]

The family neighbouring my YO were running a shooting school (not anymore, PP was turned down) and my field is against their boundry. My horses have never taken any notice of the guns and like Jemima's pony, mine would be more worried by people than guns. Most horses soon learn to ignor things that happen regularly.

 

[ThePinkPony]

They are unfortunately making their living. though why a keeper is shooting a shotgun at night is beyond me? my fiance is a gamekeeper and says ''using the shotgun means he is probably bunnybashing, and unfortunately they arent being unconcientious and not all keepers are like that and do try to avoid problems like this, after all it makes their lives harder. On the flip side if the farmer is wanting the rabbits gone from his land then its a necessity and there isnt alot the police can do as long as they are abiding by the law.
Communication is always a better route to go as threatening police action wont help your cause and will almost certainly put both the landowners and the keepers backs up''

do you own the land or are you renting? Is there an estate manage to can talk to and obtain shoot dates so you can move your horses?

Unfortunately you are living next to a shoot, and if you knew that when you moved then really what do you expect? it is the keepers job, it probably puts a roof over his head and if he has a job to do he isnt going to take kindly to being told what he has to do just because you happen to have chosen to live there. And if they are on their own land and complying to all shooting laws and are within their boundaries then you cant really do much but move.

Personally i live on a shoot, we have horses surrounding us and they shoot 100+ days a year and encounter very little issues, if anything the main problems have been caused by riders ignoring a bridlepath and deciding to take the scenic route right through a game crop disturbing 5000 pheasants my fiance has spent all year raising specifically for that drive?

i may be biased, but we do have alot of horses on the estate who really arent bothered when a drive is being shot. like i said i live on one with drives behind the house with a small baby and its never been an issue with us.

my fiance stresses that communication is the key, and making threats that will probably be unsuccessful with no doubt put you in a worse position, some keepers are stubborn and can be very unhelpful especially when their pheasants and livelihoods are concerned.

 

[Dubsie]

The man who comes and shoots the rabbits does so in our fields. So long as the ponies have hay to eat in the field shelter, they are not bothered by the gun (does have a silencer), as they're so used to it. It's more when he appears round the back of their field shelter that surprises them, not the gun itself, so my rabbit man has learnt to keep out of sight so as to not spook them into scaring the rabbits. He usually gets half a dozen or so each visit.

There's also a shoot about a mile away as the crow flies, and we hear that as well as a paintball 2 fields away the other side of the river (that's noisy men yelling more than shot noises ) , but they're not bothered.

 

[ThePinkPony]

Also, it is worth keeping in mind that in the farmers eyes he might well be thinking, If one of your ponies legs got caught in a rabbit hole, and you decided to form a court case because you believed it was his lack of vermin control causing the rabbits to damage your paddock, then its going to be him in the firing line. I have heard through the grapevine of this happening before.

Try not to be aggressive, there are exceptions to the rule but usually if you approach an issue calmly and with some understanding then people are much more likely to do all they can to help.

They may well have heard this a million times before, on our old estate a family started renting an estate cottage and began causing merry hell because there was a drive at the back of their garden, and really no shoot is going to move a main drive because someone moves directly into the firing line and then decides they have a problem with it.

Im really not defending it, there are a few farmers and keepers who are just pains, but thats probably not the issue here. But at the end of the day i've never read anywhere of a shoot being served an ASBO, and the policeman may have just been of the type that stop pidgeon shooters and call in SWAT because they see/hear a gun and obviously that means someone is breaking the law.

 

[beckybue]

Huge thanks for all the comments and advice.

Yes, I agree that diplomacy and communication is and has been in the past the way forward (meetings with the farmers and the keeper, agreements to let us know when they are going to be shooting), but the police and Firearms Licensing officers are recommending firmer action now as agreements to be more considerate just fall by the wayside.

The police have mentioned an ASBO, not as a means of controlling the organised shoots, but as a way of keeping in check the gamekeeper's and his employer's behaviour which has been very abusive and intimidating at times. And an order like that would apparently also control the gamekeeper using a shotgun late at night behind our house (he refuses to use a rifle with a silencer). It's really loud, wakes our young kids, frightens them etc. The gamekeeper argues that he has to use a shotgun because he lamps for pigeons at night (which is illegal) but he doesn't care. He says it's pest control. But he and his friends routinely shoot all the roosting birds regardless of species, out of the trees anyway. His employers don't have a problem with any of this, despite us (and other neighbours) raising concerns with them directly. My husband is a shooting man, has farm-managed most of his life and he's never come across this situation before. We don't know any other gamekeepers who run around with a shotgun late at night so close to houses! Anyone we know (my husband included) use rifles with silencers to shoot rabbits and foxes, and they wouldn't dream of lamping for roosting birds.

Our ponies were very scared of the gunfire at the beginning but similar to the other comments on here, have over the years actually got used to it, but it took time. But the shooting makes it hard to have other friends and their horses/ponies on ' a sleepover' as I don't know how they horses would react, and also makes me dread the day when we get a new horse and have to de-sensitise it to the gunfire. I was amazed to find that there is no legal protection for horses and ponies though - the anti-social behaviour coverage only extends to humans! Saying that the impact of it is bad on our children, particularly our youngest daughter, who gets v upset and stressed by it :-(

Further advice gratefully received!

 

[ThePinkPony]

Sounds like you have unfortunately got yourself one of the pain in the ass keepers. they are far and few between, and have no consideration for other peoples feelings.

lamping pigeons out of trees, hah! sounds like a bit of a tool! lacking in morals or common sense. but at least he is using a shotgun, shooting anything out of a tree with a rifle would be seriously dangerous.

sorry i cant help more. its a pretty impossible situation for you. what is the shoot called, you can PM me if you like.

 

[Orangehorse]

Gosh, this sounds like quite a nasty situation. It sounds as though you have done all the reasonable things, and you obviously understand the whys and wherefores of shooting and running an estate. We use a shotgun at night for rabbit shooting, so it is legal. We always inform the Police before we go and don't get too close to houses. And it only happens a few time. There are no horses to be frightened.

The only other organisation I can think of is to contact BASC - this is very bad public relations for shooting and they might be able to put some pressure on the shoot employer/gamekeeper, etc. They are not living up to the spirit of the BASC certainly.

 

[beckybue]

To ThePinkPony, huge thanks for your informative response. It's interesting that your fiance is a gamekeeper too, you offer a different perspective. I didn't know that about rabbit holes and potential liability. We do have rabbit holes in our field from time to time but we would never dream of sueing the farmer for not keeping the rabbit population down if one of our horses broke a leg in a rabbit hole.

Trust me, we're not aggressive over-bearing townies who don't get the country way of life and chuck our weight around. On the contrary, we are small, quiet, non-confrontational country folk! If Asbos etc seem heavy handed then it's because the gamekeeper is well-known to the police anyway (drunken fighting, making threats against people etc. etc). We do realise that thankfully most game-keepers don't behave like him, thank goodness!

 

[MurphysMinder]

If the gamekeeper has such a reputation with the police how on earth does he still have his shotgun licence?

 

[posie_honey]

i'm surprised he even has a license tbh if he's known to the police!
i've know keepers have their stripped for lesser offences!
i'd maybe speak to the estate owner or factor? and def speak to BASC too - as ORANGEHORSE says they wont look kindly on this - yes he needs to do his job but there has to be a little bit of compromise.
we have a drive where the beaters come through our field - luckily though our horses are fine with it all - and they send through the beater who has horses so she can keep an eye on them (or me if i'm out ) and we've had no bother

 

[ThePinkPony]

i do sympathise with you. i have met keepers like the one you describe and by the end of their first sentence you are guaranteed that you'll either have punched them or thrown a drink in their face.

like my partner says, communication communication communication, and try to find someone involved within the shoot that could influence their behaviour.

it may be a long shot but maybe your husband taking up membership to their syndicate may improve relations. the shooting and keepering world is a very close knit one and someone will know someone else who may have a sway on his behaviour.

Have you tried posting in the shooting times forum, or even sending a letter to the magazine? the majority of us shooting/keepering folk hate the fact that there are individuals who give us a bad image and you could find they woul be more than happy to help???

or as others have said,Contact BASC or the NGO. someone somewhere will be willing to help to preserve the publics image.

 

[*hic*]

If the gamekeeper has such a reputation with the police how on earth does he still have his shotgun licence?

^^This

 

[OWLIE185]

BACS Code of Conduct regarding Horses
Horses and Shoots
There are a number of causes for concern over safety issues between shooters and equestrians. However, a good relationship exists between the two groups and the problems should be easily overcome. These guidelines will help to contribute towards the safety of the riders and horses.

Risks
Noise is the principle area to be addressed. It can be broken down into two main areas that are wholly to do with shooting and another more general one

1.The noise from the guns as they fire
2.The sounds created by spent shot as it falls as well as any falling shot birds
3.Noises and sudden movements made by gun dogs and beaters working in cover as they approach bridleways etc. (This may include the sound of a flushed animal)
4.Drives situated near to regular riding routes may be responsible for spent shot falling on and around those routes. Care should be taken, where practical, to avoid this.
5.Shoot organisers should be aware that "holding up" a horse which might be near its home stable can result in a problem for the rider. For example, it is really only police horses and some military mounts that will stand for long periods of time.
Dealing with the risks
•Riders and shooters should show courtesy and consideration towards each other at all times
•Riders and shooters should be vigilant at all times
•As soon as a horse, or horses are spotted, all shooting and beating should stop until they have passed
•All guns should be aware of bridleways and it should be the duty of every host to notify guests of their position and of any fields in which horses may be present. Drives should be organised with this in mind.
•Where possible shoots should liase with local riders or yards to inform people when formal shoots are taking place; equally riders should look for clues that shooting may be taking place in the area, e.g sounds, cars parked in gateways, BASC stickers in car windows.
•It may be appropriate to publish the dates of shooting days and to inform local riding centres of any drives which may affect them. Publication of dates would move an element of responsibility to riders.
•If appropriate, signs or signals should be placed notifying riders that shooting will be taking place. Shooters and riders should ensure that they have adequate 3rd party insurance.
Amended 12/02/02 SJC

 

[lachlanandmarcus]

the way I look at it is, an awful lot of the land we get to ride through would not be suitable riding country if it wasnt being managed for shooting....

Like in any walk of life, a prat doing this chaps job can be a pain, and TBH this guy sounds a bit out of control so probably does need some talking to from the authorities.

Shoots and horses can live together ok and rub along but it does take both sides to be reasonable, it doesnt sound as tho he is fulfilling that. So the issue isnt with the shoot being there, thats just tough Im afraid, they have as much right to be as your horse does, but its the extra stuff hes doing that he shouldnt be.

 

[beckybue]

Huge thanks for all the further advice and to Owlie for the specifics. Very interesting reading. I hadn't thought of contacting BASC either - my instinctively first port of call was the horsey world but it would be interesting to see what BASC have to say, absolutely, and I will definitely follow it up.

Yes, why is this keeper allowed to have a license at all - good question. One that us and many other people in our area also ask themselves on a frequent basis! I know the keeper has had his guns 'confiscated' for a while by the Firearms Licensing Officer for using threatening behaviour but I think he still holds a licence (but actually we just want him to show consideration, we don't want him to lose his licence 'cos he'll lose his job then, and wouldn't wish that on anyone in current financial climes).

I am well aware that the way this keeper and the farmers operate their pest control and organised shoots is not the norm. We are v. familiar with what is a considerate way to shoot at night near houses/horses (my husband comes from a farming family who turn their birdscarers off on Sundays!). We also understand how organised (private) shoots should run (although we have no experience of syndicates between us), and we understand that shooting and horses should be able to co-exist with some consideration, and give and take on either side. But you can (apart any from horse-related issues or noise impact) only ask someone for so many years to stop climbing over your back garden fence to pick up pheasants without permission, to stop showering your house and your stable with lead shot, to stop beaters beating your driveway, to stop being abusive over the fence etc etc before you realise that consideration just doesn't even come into it . Concerns raised are met with abuse and retaliation and we realise now that we should have phoned the police straight away on more than one occasion in the past. One of our neighbours who have trouble with them once complained about something and the farmers lined a load of machinery up against their garden hedge for a few months in revenge. We, and others, are scared of them and not without good reason.

Anyway, I've had some good advice on this thread though. Big and grateful thanks to all.

 

[mymare]

Hi,

I've kept horses on shooting estates for the past 11 years. Fortunately I've always got on really well with the gamekeepers. The horses soon got used to the guns, and to be honest although I worried about how the horses were reacting during their lamping sessions at night, I was grateful that they were trying to keep the rabbits under control. Rabbit holes and horses don't mix.

I remember walking my dogs up the hill and looking down over the farm to see the beaters being dropped off and starting to walk with their dogs through the horses' field. They had only been put into that field a couple of hours earlier, and were a bit "flighty". I had a feeling of dread when I saw the beaters starting to walk through it, and then suddenly they ran into a group just as I saw the 2 horses galloping into view straight at them...eek! I was too far away to do anything. Fortunately they just circled them (at great speed) a few times and then left them alone. I apologised profusely to the gamekeeper the next time I saw him, although did have a good snigger to myself once they were all out of the field safely! Needless to say they did their best to avoid going through their field after that! The gamey said the beaters almost shat themselves LOL!

 

[proctor]

We are situated on a Royal Marine base and the 25m fireing range is right next to us, the horses are used to it and take no notice, even new ones who come onto the yard seem ok, they must feel and see that the other horses are fine with it, so they know it's nothing to worry about!

 

[ruby1512]

We used to have duck shoots on a farm we were at, but the YO always warned us when it was taking place and we used to keep ours in for the morning, we were at a rented field once when the farmer just turned up with a load of blokes to shoot and never warned us, he stood right next to out fence line and let a couple off and our horse went barmy! so my daughter gave him a gob full and a row insued in the middle of our field, he was a nasty old git anyway, we moved in the end, we found bloody spent cartridges in our water troughs!!!!!