Using your seat.....

[ldlp111]

Just pondering after watching my pilates exercise dvd again (and doing the exercises or trying anyway )
How would you describe you use your seat? eg when you ask for a half halt do you use your seat to aid this and what do you do

thanks

 

[Tonks]

I think that's a really good question because it is often used in equitation with no clear definition and no clear explanation of how to get your horse to respond to this cue/aid. You hear trainers/instructors say, "OK now use your seat", or "use you seat in that downward transition", etc, etc.

I think of it like this: A change in seat posture/position if often referred to as the weight aids. An aid is also known as a cue and it is a signal to the horse to perform a certain behaviour that we want.

I personally feel that the horse responds 'naturally' (that is without training) to some seat changes but that primarily these seat cues have to be trained.

For example, horses naturally appear to slow the speed of their legs when we slow the speed of our rise.

However, when trainers refer to a change of posture/position/weight from us (using your seat) they are really referring to a learnt response by the horse that is brought about through 'conditioning'.

For example, once the horse understands and responds correctly to a stop or slow from pressure and release of the reins, we can then PAIR this with a change in our seat posture and our horse should begin to link these two stimuli. Over time he will learn that a change in seat position preceeds another signal to stop/slow. As such, he will then learn to stop/slow from the change in seat posture alone.

The rider has to ensure that the change in seat posture/weight is given BEFORE the pressure to stop from the reins. If the seat aid is given after the rein aid, then learning will be hap hazard, more difficult and longer - if at all.

We train the horse using the rein aid first because this pressure motivates the horse more than any other type of stimuli as they are keen to reduce this mouth pressure. As such, it is pretty much guaranteed to produce the same consistent repsonse (stop/slow) in the horse everytime and is reliable (once learnt and assuming not a just backed horse.) If the seat aid is consistently give before rein pressure the horse learns in a clear concise manner, which enhances learning.

To use the seat aids alone (without first showing the horse what we want throught the use of the rein pressure) is again hap hazard and unclear. This is because the use of weight aids does not automatically and immediately produce the behaviour we want [like pulling on the reins has.] As such, you may get speeding up one minute followed by lateral movement and sometimes the oddest behaviour that you're not expecting.

This is because a change in seat does not necessarily mean stop to the horse. It only does once its paired with another cue that definitely signals 'stop' to the horse.

You can actually teach the horse using classical conditioning or secondary reinforces anything you wanted it to - you could even teach it that leaning back means - go to the left. Unfortunately, a lot of riders do inadvertinently teach such things.

 

[TheMule]

Tonks, good reply, I agree not it's all conditioning as I think there are certain pressures which a horse responds to bio mechanically, not through a learnt response.

I learnt how to use my seat properly through riding well trained horses. By riding sensitive schoolmasters with a good instructor, I learnt what movements made what happen! It's now indescribable, it's just a knowledge of how to position myself, and my horses go really nicely from the seat.

 

[weebarney]

I once had a flatwork lesson off a respected dressage lady round here and she asked me to let the reins go loose and use my seat to slow the horse, well we just went faster and faster until i stopped her with my reins. Afterwards i was wondering how the horse was supposed to know what i was asking it!

 

[~ Clear Light ~]

According to the classical German methods there are 3 different weight aids:

1) Increasing the weight on both seat bones
2) Increasing the weight on one seat bone
3) Easing the weight on the seat bones

Buy yourself a good book like the GNEF’s The Principles of Riding or Michael Putz’s Riding with Understanding and Feeling, but to summarise…

The first method involves BRIEFLY bracing the back and stomach muscles more strongly in such a subtle way no one (besides your horse) would notice. This encourages the horse to activate his hind end more. This, in combination with leg and hand aids which are secondary, are related to your half halts.

The second involves a slight lowering of the hip and knee such as when riding round corners. Collapsing in the hip is a common fault. This alone is enough to guide a well schooled horse and keep him in balance. Even a young horse will want to follow where the rider’s weight goes to keep him in balance. Hence by trying to do the opposite in say half pass and sitting against the movement and trying to push the horse over (which often feels the correct thing to do), is actually totally counter productive and blocks the horse.

The third is mainly used in young horses or when training difficult work, for instance it makes it easier for the horse in an extension. Many riders think sitting behind the movement and driving with the seat helps but it makes it much harder for the horse and totally blocks the back!

As you asked about half halts… In Germany I have always been taught the first aid is the momentary tightening or bracing of the back and abdominal muscles, followed by driving leg aids, and lastly followed by a very BRIEF rein aid (asking or non yielding) which should then immediately YIELD when the horse responds. It is the timing of all this that makes the half halt useful, otherwise the rider just puts the hand break on and loses the hind leg.

Of course no one is actively thinking all this whilst they are riding, but that is the basic theory behind it. People underestimate how much influence our weight has on our horse, it is not purely a learned response. It can make the difference between a horse who has gait irregularities due to a rider’s incorrect and crooked seat, to one which is supple and elastic when ridden with a “breathing” and constantly dynamic seat.

Thanks for asking as it is refreshing my memory in preparation for exams I have

 

[Tonks]

People underestimate how much influence our weight has on our horse, it is not purely a learned response. It can make the difference between a horse who has gait irregularities due to a rider’s incorrect and crooked seat, to one which is supple and elastic when ridden with a “breathing” and constantly dynamic seat.

I do agree with you that an unyeilding, driving, inflexible seat can produce rigidity in the horse - a tense rider causes a tense horse. I do even think that it could produce gait abnormalities (I think a horse that produced gait abnormalities due to a rigid seat may already have some issues with thier core stability and lack of balance, though.)

I think that weebarney has described the situation perfectly though......in order to get your horse to produce overt movements such as the stop or halt it has to be trained. It has to be paired first with rein pressure to produce such overt behaviour. In fact, I would argue that 'bracing' your core/seat actually makes the horse quicken rather than slow. Hence the real need to train it.

Using it alone in order to try to get the horse to stop is simply not enough to produce a 'stop'. I think you've described the training of the HH really well.

 

[trottingon]

Wow I found that really interesting, thank you😀

 

[Molasses]

a wonderful little book called Dressage Formula by Erik Herbermann is the only place i've seen a rider x-ray the pelvis and explain in detail how to use your seat using those x-ray pics. if you learn from images and clear explanations that's a gem of a book

 

[nieghham]

I am trained along the lines of clear influence in that my training is German....but even within one system there can be variances in some methods and we are an example

While the increasement of weight in the seatbones is a huge influence on the horses balance...it is the alignment of the three points of the seat[/I] "engagement vrs application" influenced/fueled by the cores supported by the back and legs/hands in the order dictated by the movement or evasion

I was taught that more than often it is the a heavy aid that causes alot of eveasions in riders error and details missed can have a detrimental effect.

an example is the activation of the back,......alot of time when people use the back brace the horse stops insead of tansitioning into a smooth walk of they "jerk/hesitate" the transition when the back is braced so the horse is taught to go off the core HH through activating the lower core into the upper core while timing the outside hand HH to the inside hoof fall....the core HH is activated on the up part of the rising trot.

Increasing the weight in the seat bone to me is not done through the drop aid of the leg but by manipulating the waist angle controlling a hip drop through the angle that allows the seat bone aids to be felt along the spine...the seat can be activated for forward/downward transitions/influencing the whither and shoulder without needing to involve the drop aids. Drop aid application is for things like calf engagement for evesion/leg yield/forward/half pass/piaffe but are not always mandatory when eagaging the seat or individual seat bone.

I do agree that it is with the engagement of the drop aid that one of two kinds of collapsed hip is seen where the rider's incorrect hip/waist angles has lifted/tucked the third part of the "seat"...the pelvic affecting seat bone placement /hip angle/thigh placment/knee angle/calf placement/ankle angle, suspensory, suppleness

I also agree that the riders breathing has alotof influence...we have all seen the effect on the horse when the rider is tence and holding their breath

I ride the seat aid using the cores first..using the lower core as the brace and the upper core as my aligner.if ignored or not quite understood I go to the lower back working into the upper back/shoulder blade engagement if these aids are ignored I then go to the seat bone then hand with all being supported by the leg...the timing/activation of the aids to the hoof fall are paramount to keeping the rythym even to the tempo.

 

[Tonks]

Neighham........

Please don't think me rude, but much of what you say doesn't make that much sense to me! What is a) alinement of the 3 points? b) influenced/fueled by the cores supported by the back leg......etc, etc. I doesn't make any sense.

What is 'activation of the back'? You need to be clear in your use of terms and definitions.

Drop aid of the leg - what is that? How do I increase the weight in my seat bone? I think you need to be clear on how to practically do this? How can the seat be activated? What is calf engagement?

Do you mean applying pressure with my calf to ask the horse to lengthen? Yes, it is extremely useful to use differentiate parts of the rider's leg to signal different movements in the horse. But, I'm not sure this is what you mean? What does 'engaging' the seat actually mean?

What is the third part of the seat?

OK, I understand the last bit a bit better. But can you please explain the other bits I've commented on?

Sorry if I appear rude, but as an instructor myself - I get really annoyed when trainers etc, use terms that a) can be many different things to many different people b) are not clearly defined, explained or demonstrated c) they 'think' everyone understand d) use old fashioned terms that do not clearly explain how in practical terms what the rider should do with their body/hands, etc.

For an instructor/trainer to simply say "activation of the back" or "increasing the weight in the seat bone" doesn't actually mean anything for a rider sat on top. These terms have to be broken down, defined and demonstrated to give the rider a good understanding of what it would feel like to move their body in this way to produce change in the horse.

 

[~ Clear Light ~]

in order to get your horse to produce overt movements such as the stop or halt it has to be trained. It has to be paired first with rein pressure to produce such overt behaviour.

Ahh training it for the first time in a totally green horse is a whole different thing. I see what you're saying about conditioning the horse's mind to ever more subtle aids, with the rein aid being the initial, crude one if you like. In an ideal world the horse would be used to halting on the lunge and voice commands, so with a rider on board and a trainer on the ground there should be no problems, in theory! The rein is mainly to dictate the frame and a young horse should have the confidence to go forwards into it, so I would still avoid using it as my main halt aid. A halt should still be *active*, Carl Hester trains the horse to be constantly taking tiny active steps until it is square, and even then there's the feeling the horse is still on the aids and absolutely ready to move on again ie the halt is not as immobile as people make it out to be. The horse is still GOING INTO the contact, the contact remains pretty consistent to how it was before the halt, yes some horses are lighter than others through their schooling. Mind you I have ridden GP horses who are unbelievably heavy in the hand through a different style of training that need to be ridden positively up into that heavy contact before they slow down! However that is not my ideal

Increasing the weight in the seat bone to me is not done through the drop aid of the leg but by manipulating the waist angle controlling a hip drop through the angle that allows the seat bone aids to be felt along the spine...the seat can be activated for forward/downward transitions/influencing the whither and shoulder without needing to involve the drop aids. Drop aid application is for things like calf engagement for evesion/leg yield/forward/half pass/piaffe but are not always mandatory when eagaging the seat or individual seat bone.

I'm not sure what you mean about manipulating the waist angle? How can you activate the seat without it affecting the rest of your body (I mean the movement has to go somewhere?) Fundamentally the movement stems from a diagonal tilting of the hip. When you do this on a Balimo stool it shows clearly how this affects the corresponding leg, which ultimately results in a slight lowering of the knee and heel (the leg does not become more active, it is purely a weight shift). I have found unless people have been shown this actually on a stool it is quite difficult to understand how to tilt the hip correctly, and in novice riders it can help to think of a slight feeling of lowering the inside knee in the initial stages to remain in balance, or at least to avoid falling to the outside/collapsing the waits.

Interesting discussion, thanks everyone

 

[paddy]

Not sure I entirely agree. If you lean back, with loose reins, your horse will step further under and either change to a slower gate or stop depending on a) how far and how quickly you lean back and b) most importantly, whether you get the timing right. Leaving aside dressage training, trainer uses this to help with horses who aren't trained to stop with the reins (and in fact to train them without having to pull on the reins to stop). As the horse becomes more conditioned/ developed, the backwards lean can be more subtle.

However, if my horse is p'ing off with me, leaning back is now my first response, and we now tend to stop after a couple of strides, rather than the whole of the long side!

 

[Coblover63]

I am not a spring chicken and have been a "happy hacker" for many years. It is only recently that I've been thinking about fine-tuning my riding. I have been teaching my boy to slow if I tighten my thighs/buttocks and he's picked it up really quickly. We've progressed far enough to be able to get walk to halt without me holding the reins at all.

However, it has highlighted how unbalanced I am as I instinctively "clench" if I panic o) and thus he will now slow, bless him, so I am also learning to ride with a much more relaxed lower-half. So we are both learning!

 

[nieghham]

Neighham........

Please don't think me rude, but much of what you say doesn't make that much sense to me! What is a) alinement of the 3 points?

two seatbones and the pelvic make up "the seat" and too often many riders leave the application vrs placement vrs engagement of the pelvic nevermind how it affects the aids when not alinged or balanced out with teh seat bones


b) influenced/fueled by the cores supported by the back leg......etc, etc. I doesn't make any sense.

All the kinetic energy of the rider has its' starting point and it is within the cores....the cores align the upper body...control the shoulder placement ...free the back to support the seat independantly...place the hip and are used to stretch or contract the riders upper body.....the legs support the cores as they do with all seat activation

What is 'activation of the back'? You need to be clear in your use of terms and definitions.

I am confused myself now....I have trained in Canada/Germany/Sweden and here at home...activatiion of the back is a common term across the board when regarding anything fo the seat....to have to go into great detail about it would require a book,.....but the easy way is the back is activated by engaging whichever muscle along either side of the spine or the lower back or the shoulder blade area and it too supports the cores though these two are always working very close together

Drop aid of the leg - what is that?

The drop aids are the kinetic energy riders use as weight aids....it is by the control of the relaxation or weighting certain muscles through activation...one can drop the weight from the shoulder into the waist....or the waist into the hip or the shoulder right down into the ankle angle where it can be distributed to the ballof the foot and heel as needed

How do I increase the weight in my seat bone?

If you are dropping the weight down from the shoulder...instead of harnessing any of the weight into the waist hinge or hips themself one would allow the weight to drop and concentrate to the seat bones.

I think you need to be clear on how to practically do this? How can the seat be activated?

The length of the theory to practical application explaination of this is best done through writing a book or teaching a lesson but I will do the condensed version...the seat is activated by rider muscle control....depending on which part of the seat aid you want to work will depend on where the rider concentrated their own kintetic energy but it all fueled by the core ...a seat bone aid...a bracing of the back or incorporating all the aids together in an evasion.....the rider activates the seat by the core...breathing is the start timing is the key strength/developement of the cores is uptmost importance just as it is for a horses topline/abs to be...the cores keep the waist aligned and free from collapses into the hip by keeping the seat bones aligned...it is the perfect area to harness and dispatch the energy with less effort




What is calf engagement?

Do you mean applying pressure with my calf to ask the horse to lengthen?
Yes, it is extremely useful to use differentiate parts of the rider's leg to signal different movements in the horse. But, I'm not sure this is what you mean?

engagement of the calf is just that yes...engagement of the calf....often placment vrs applicatuion site is off or the rider rotates out of the hip/ankle turning this area and pointing toes out as a cause...lengthening comes from the cores/seat to me though again legs do support

What does 'engaging' the seat actually mean?

What is the third part of the seat?

OK, I understand the last bit a bit better. But can you please explain the other bits I've commented on?

Sorry...now I amconfused....what other bits?

Sorry if I appear rude, but as an instructor myself - I get really annoyed when trainers etc, use terms that a) can be many different things to many different people

Though I do compete in the GP Jumpers here and have been to the Hunter/Event rings my main and foundation training is Dressage and these are the standard terms right across the board and ponds that are used by the trainers I have had....for further references any terms I use other than relating directly to jumping I speak in Dressage terms as they are used by the FEI standards

b) are not clearly defined, explained or demonstrated

the above said.....and having travelled and realizing there is more than "just" DRESSAGE riders out there I do understand that yes sometimes..."K"..alot of time confusion can be a result of the typed word due to lack of emotional support to the words or facial expression to go along with them...so if I do have a word not recognisable it is never rude to have to ask.

c) they 'think' everyone understand
this is true...sometimes I talk like I am talking to some of my riders and forget myself...different terms for differing countries...different level of training/end goals or levels that not all terms are going to be umbrella


d) use old fashioned terms that do not clearly explain how in practical terms what the rider should do with their body/hands, etc.
Now I will admit I do not do this in detailed depth...if someone asks like you did I am more than happy to comeback and answer...but in reality...most answers to be as detailed as I wouldwant....need a one on one lesson system for a training period or enough time for me to write a book

For an instructor/trainer to simply say "activation of the back" or "increasing the weight in the seat bone" doesn't actually mean anything for a rider sat on top. These terms have to be broken down, defined and demonstrated to give the rider a good understanding of what it would feel like to move their body in this way to produce change in the horse.

This is not a lesson though...it is a simple discussion...I work with many of our Dressage Young Riders/upper level riderw and go into the great depth of detail needed for their advancement...theory is covered as depthly as the physical/practical application and mental development of both rider and horse

Sorry if I do not put the same effort in here....but I just want to play/share and discuss with like horse people and not teach lessons here or change riding for anyone or even clash with people/systems/beliefs....not trying to be rude or anything myself...but I think everyone has an instructor who can teach that to them without me which I hope allows me to participate without having to be a coach all the time....though it is in the blood and seeps out...if they are not understanding it ..it is hard to offend me by saying...WYH???

 

[nieghham]

I'm not sure what you mean about manipulating the waist angle?

The waist is not really consider a riders'angle like the elbow/wrist/hip/knee/ankle are but is moreof a supporting hinge like the armpit but can be incorporated as an angle (when a rider leans meanly they have taken the hinge element out of the waist and made it an angle)..the best discription of manipulating the waist can be seen in belly dancers...of course riders in no way go to that extent unless something is going veryveryvery wrong

How can you activate the seat without it affecting the rest of your body (I mean the movement has to go somewhere?)

Yes...the kinetic energy of the rider must be somewhere...it is harnessed in the cores/angles and dispatched as needed


Fundamentally the movement stems from a diagonal tilting of the hip. When you do this on a Balimo stool it shows clearly how this affects the corresponding leg, which ultimately results in a slight lowering of the knee and heel (the leg does not become more active, it is purely a weight shift)

I disagree...or else the horses would need riders would need to realign for one tempo changes...this would disrupt the horses longitudinal balance and the connection alignment nevermind taking the actual seat bone out of alignment....it is through musclecontrol that the weight is placed....the activation of the seat bone should not be needed nor should it influence any other part of teh body so drastically...muscle control/activation is important for movements like the piaffe into the passage or the rider takes the mechanicaland technical out so that while a horse may maintain rythym he will not have a pure tempo...there needs to be no weight shift at all unless the rider wants to increase the aid and invilve the supporters.....although your example does show how a hard aid can influence what you ahve described is not an asking aid but is a telling/demand aid and I save those for resistance/evasions

. I have found unless people have been shown this actually on a stool it is quite difficult to understand how to tilt the hip correctly, and in novice riders it can help to think of a slight feeling of lowering the inside knee in the initial stages to remain in balance, or at least to avoid falling to the outside/collapsing the waits.

Any tilting of the hip will inadvertently lift the opposite seat bone taking it out of alignment and moveing the practica application site of the aid...and more than often has the rider place the inside seat bone too hard against the spine/whither affecting the shoulder and behind the outside seat bone....tilting the hip is never desired by the Dressage rider....it is through weight aid manipulation of the muscles that the drop aids are used not the dropping/tilting/taking out of alignment the application site of the aids

Interesting discussion, thanks everyone

I do not open from the knee unless I have closed that angle incorrectly...all stretch comes frommy hip angle...it is often here I find the rider lifts the leg bringing the knee into action through the lift dispalcing the correct area on teh flap for the knee to rest...I myself had to work this issue after a hip surgury and now fully sympathize with thjose who have to battle it and the lifted heel.

 

[TarrSteps]

Not sure I entirely agree. If you lean back, with loose reins, your horse will step further under and either change to a slower gate or stop depending on a) how far and how quickly you lean back and b) most importantly, whether you get the timing right. Leaving aside dressage training, trainer uses this to help with horses who aren't trained to stop with the reins (and in fact to train them without having to pull on the reins to stop). As the horse becomes more conditioned/ developed, the backwards lean can be more subtle.

However, if my horse is p'ing off with me, leaning back is now my first response, and we now tend to stop after a couple of strides, rather than the whole of the long side!

Does you trainer load the stirrups when he/she does this? Does he/she change the angle of the seat? Soft or "braced" back?

I'm not arguing by the way, just information gathering!

I am curious though, over all, if lifting the seat, along with a "fixed" (as in not following, not as in stiff) hand and a relaxed "knee in" leg is NOT a "natural" way to make a horse slow down why is this the universal method for people who ride very green horses at speed? Transfer of weight is a very useful "crude" aid, or at least I've found it to be so with very green horses. I'm not arguing with anyone, just asking for a clarification.

As to the rest, too much thinking for me! And that's saying something. The most useful "seat aid" advice I've ever been given is to think of making the shape with your seat that you'd like the horse's back to take on. I'd urge everyone to have a go at trying to pull their seat bones into their body - without external action, hollowing, tightening your glutes etc. You will feel a "pull" at about your waistband when it works. Have a play with it.

 

[PapaFrita]

Ok, this is what I do (v low-tech)
When slowing down, I stiffen my back and exhale, making myself 'heavier'. When wanting to pick up the pace, I accompany the movement of the horse more with my pelvis and 'lighten' my torso. When turning or doing lateral work, I move my weight onto one or other of my butt cheeks without actually moving my backside in the saddle.

 

[nieghham]

Does you trainer load the stirrups when he/she does this? Does he/she change the angle of the seat? Soft or "braced" back?

I'm not arguing by the way, just information gathering!

I am curious though, over all, if lifting the seat, along with a "fixed" (as in not following, not as in stiff) hand and a relaxed "knee in" leg is NOT a "natural" way to make a horse slow down why is this the universal method for people who ride very green horses at speed? Transfer of weight is a very useful "crude" aid, or at least I've found it to be so with very green horses. I'm not arguing with anyone, just asking for a clarification.

As to the rest, too much thinking for me! And that's saying something. The most useful "seat aid" advice I've ever been given is to think of making the shape with your seat that you'd like the horse's back to take on. I'd urge everyone to have a go at trying to pull their seat bones into their body - without external action, hollowing, tightening your glutes etc. You will feel a "pull" at about your waistband when it works. Have a play with it.

But really Tarrstep it is not...you see...I think we really are saying the same thing...as you said...the masters taught this.

Equitation riding science is the same as correct riding to me...please correct me if the following assumption is incorrect, I hope I am not far off...please understand this is in no way detailed or in depth....just a general for the examples toget my point across better

Angle engagement refers to how the rider uses say.... the finger joints when squeezing for the half halt right down to which finger is used or how many are engaged in the HH itself. The science of the kinetic energy travelling through the fingers into the wrist angle into the elbow and so one. The wrist is another angle that also acts as a hinge...which as we know....if the wristis are stiff or bent it affects the hand placement (piano/low/breached hands or opened fingers for example) and softness of the aid plus numerous other issues it can bring on. The bent wrist is actually an angle out of alignment to the elbow breaking the line of contact conection...that is just an example of action getting a reaction and whether it was desired or not.

Core alignment is a large part of equitation. Too many times (I am speaking here) I have heard coaches say bring the shoulder back and stick the chest out to straighten the back only to have the rider be tense in the back losing mobility/suppleness in the hip.
If the rider engages the muscles between the shoulder blade to place the shoulder they lose the ability to work as an aid as they already have a duty...keeping the shouler back
This often has the side effect of traveling along the muscles along the rider spine adding tension to the lower back....this tension is transfered to the horse as a resistant aid
If one uses the cores by lifting the upper core and slightly tighting the lower one...the front cores of the rider align the body through the lift and drop affect when engaging the cores this eay..these is the core "On the ready for use" without any engagement of aid just as the seat can sit in the saddle still "on the ready" without being an asking aid every step

The elbow angle is another alignment that is engaged....if the rider opens the elbow too far, they throw away the contact often hollowing the back tilting the pelvic up bringing the shoulders behind the motion taking the riders'body out of alignment

I really am speaking the same language I think....I may do it in a bit more differenty through articulation/country phrase differences but please be patient while I catch up with some terms
I am also a bit detail anal and will indentifying things like angles used or calf placment vrs application vrs engagement...that is the breaking down of the equitation science of where the calf sits and how the leg lays out of the hip angle to ensure the stability...application is how the rider uses things like the knee angle/knee/ect

The seat "aid" is an example...broken down it is not just the seat "bones" to me...but the actual way riders employ the cores and/or back and/or pelvic and/or left seat bone and/or right seat boneect. as an aid in support to the whole body muscles used
Another words the core/back/seat bone/pelvic all make up the "seat aid" ...it is how the rider uses drop weights or body manipulation (dropping the hip physically instead of just the kinetic energy without moving the shoulder alignment/elbow placment/ankle/calf/thigh as this is one individual aid through the engagement of simply dropping mroe wieght into it)

If a rider stand/rides off the toe over a fence the ankle angle is opened too much on the top...as equitation science/correctriding dictates the following will happen taking the rider out of alignment...they stand on the toes bending the angles of the digits there tensing the sole and arching it a bit....this in turns "lifts"the heel
The lifted heel will affect the calf which affects the knee which affects the hip and so one

Even the minute angle is science and alignment...their engagement and how the rider uses these angles when activating or asking with an aid and how many they angles they incorporate...it is all equitation.

The cores place the shoulders simply through their own alignment (both front and lateral cores) You see it in the front cores when people ride in the fetal position or push their stomach out and in the lateral cores when people have those mean leans in corners or one shoulder is dropped and there is a collapse in the hip resulting from the hip itself.

The ankle controls the heel drop/weight in ball of foot on the iron through the kinetic energy distibution of the weight aid
IMO the weight aid does not go into the heel but into the ankle itself...this is why the ankle must be supple and work as a suspensory....it regulates just how much weight is needed in the ball to keep the iron steady but not enough to cause the toes to numb/curl or have the rider "push" the weight onto the irons opening the knee and causing a chair seat or harely motorcycle syndrome

^^^all this...angles vrs placement vrs activation vrs employment..is the same thing....as I said...we just have different training background/experienc

I may be wrong though...would not be the first time

 

[siennamum]

Gosh haven't we just had a clear demonstration of why amateur riders struggle to understand the use of the seat and refining the aids.
I think I'll go back to reading my Carl Hester book, with accompanying pictures.

 

[SpottedCat]

To be honest Siennamum, I'm not sure it's only an amateur rider who'd struggle with this thread

I'm with TheMule - I learnt to use my seat through riding schoolmasters in the USA and UK under instruction, and I'm certain I don't make it anywhere near this complicated. Maybe that's because I'm not riding at GP, but then again none of the people I've trained with have ever made me feel I haven't the faintest idea what they're talking about, whereas this thread is almost entirely incomprehensible to me, and I can't see how it can possibly be useful on that basis! Maybe it's me not being smart enough, but one of the people I trained with thought I was in a place to ride their GP horse not usually used for lessons, so I can't help thinking it might not be me....

 

[TarrSteps]

I'm finding it incomprehensible and I'm Canadian.

Tbh, I do actually understand a bit

 

[TarrSteps]

Bad phone!

. . .a bit of the various explanations and I do think the need for precision, both in language and in practice, increases in direct proportion to demand. Feel is very, very hard to explain let alone teach!

But, in order for riders to improve, they need to be able to understand and experiment. Personally, I find a 'metaphorical' approach, something like Centered Riding, combined with an image of what the rider wants to accomplish, is most useful.

One thing I would pick out is the use of an 'off the horse' device for practice. A simulator or even a stool or gym ball. Having time and space to isolate and experiment with muscles, postures etc without having to worry about a moving horse is almost essential, especially for people who don't ride a lot.

In the end, it has to work on the horse, though. There will always be some experimentation.

 

[kerilli]

Gosh haven't we just had a clear demonstration of why amateur riders struggle to understand the use of the seat and refining the aids.
I think I'll go back to reading my Carl Hester book, with accompanying pictures.

Yes. I can talk technically about dressage till the cows come home but I find what neighham says to be pretty much impenetrable. And it has nothing to do with the language barrier either!

I mean, this:
"two seatbones and the pelvic make up "the seat" and too often many riders leave the application vrs placement vrs engagement of the pelvic nevermind how it affects the aids when not alinged or balanced out with teh seat bones"

Okay, pelvic WHAT? The pelvis itself? The pelvic girdle? The 'fork'? I get the first part but from "too often" onwards the rest makes NO sense!
Riders leave the application WHAT? leave it too late? leave it alone?


Dressage does not have to be impenetrable. Since Carl Hester and many other top riders and trainers espouse the 'KISS' idea (Keep It Simple, Stupid), I'll stick with them!

To answer the OP (eventually!)
How do I use my seat.
Umm, lots of different ways. Still (not wriggling about on saddle, but moving purely in concert with horse's back) soft, absorbing most of the time, in a 'cupping the horse's back' kind of shape as described by TarrSteps. Evenly balanced as much as I can. Pelvis upright, so seat is equally balanced on seat bones and 'fork'.
For lateral work, slightly weight seat bone I want horse to move towards. Thinking of pointing that hip bone slightly the way I want to go helps too.
A momentary "stop" with the seat (not following horse's motion any more) as start of half-halt, as my legs engage more.
A more exaggerated and slightly heavier following of the horse's back motion from walk to halt, which will eventually become the canter to walk and canter to halt aid. Once they know this you hardly need to touch the reins, which helps enormously, I find.
Slightly weighting inside seatbone for canter aid depending on training level of horse. Keeping inside seatbone weighted in counter canter to prevent confusion and unrequired change.
A more powerful forward-pushing feel but not heavier, for extended work (but I don't think I've explained that very well!)
That sort of thing.

 

[Littlelegs]

Some very complex explanations, I'm having to re-read to make head or tail.
I think the easiest way is to physically learn it, with questions & explanations along the way. I learnt it first through riding ponies in headcollars & lrs bareback, or whizzy ones. At a very crude level you learn how to reduce & somewhat block the movement with your seat. And once you can block the movement, you can learn to use it as an aid without blocking the movement. Even kids on ponies find the idea of 'think of your bum bones as brakes to press down' easy to grasp. Of course that blocks the horse from coming up through the back, but imo its an easy way to get the idea of using your seat. If a rider is aware of what they don't want, its sometimes easier for them to feel it when the seat is used correctly. And if you don't have access to a lovely schoolmaster its a method you can get a response from on a less than perfect horse. I think to really refine it & focus on the positive way the seat should be used, you do need to ride a schoolmaster, & learn to feel it.

 

[siennamum]

Yes. I can talk technically about dressage till the cows come home but I find what neighham says to be pretty much impenetrable. And it has nothing to do with the language barrier either!

I mean, this:
"two seatbones and the pelvic make up "the seat" and too often many riders leave the application vrs placement vrs engagement of the pelvic nevermind how it affects the aids when not alinged or balanced out with teh seat bones"

Okay, pelvic WHAT? The pelvis itself? The pelvic girdle? The 'fork'? I get the first part but from "too often" onwards the rest makes NO sense!
Riders leave the application WHAT? leave it too late? leave it alone?


Dressage does not have to be impenetrable. Since Carl Hester and many other top riders and trainers espouse the 'KISS' idea (Keep It Simple, Stupid), I'll stick with them!

To answer the OP (eventually!)
How do I use my seat.
Umm, lots of different ways. Still (not wriggling about on saddle, but moving purely in concert with horse's back) soft, absorbing most of the time, in a 'cupping the horse's back' kind of shape as described by TarrSteps. Evenly balanced as much as I can. Pelvis upright, so seat is equally balanced on seat bones and 'fork'.
For lateral work, slightly weight seat bone I want horse to move towards. Thinking of pointing that hip bone slightly the way I want to go helps too.
A momentary "stop" with the seat (not following horse's motion any more) as start of half-halt, as my legs engage more.
A more exaggerated and slightly heavier following of the horse's back motion from walk to halt, which will eventually become the canter to walk and canter to halt aid. Once they know this you hardly need to touch the reins, which helps enormously, I find.
Slightly weighting inside seatbone for canter aid depending on training level of horse. Keeping inside seatbone weighted in counter canter to prevent confusion and unrequired change.
A more powerful forward-pushing feel but not heavier, for extended work (but I don't think I've explained that very well!)
That sort of thing.

It is interesting to me to understand how much using the seat is a natural & intuitive thing. I use my seat a lot and always have done. Some people I put on my horses block them with their seats, even though they look like nice riders, others even though novices have very light seats, which encourage freedom and forwardness.

I teach people to use the seat, in particular to half halt. The only thing which is often counter intuitive to them is to sit more in the direction of travel in lateral work. It seemsd to make sense to novices to put more weight into the seatbone above the leg they are using.

So much of what is being talked about in this thread is basic stuff and so I am at a loss to understand why it is described in such complicated terms.

 

[Tonks]

If the rider engages the muscles between the shoulder blade to place the shoulder they lose the ability to work as an aid as they already have a duty...keeping the shouler back
This often has the side effect of traveling along the muscles along the rider spine adding tension to the lower back....this tension is transfered to the horse as a resistant aid
If one uses the cores by lifting the upper core and slightly tighting the lower one...the front cores of the rider align the body through the lift and drop affect when engaging the cores this eay..these is the core "On the ready for use" without any engagement of aid just as the seat can sit in the saddle still "on the ready" without being an asking aid every step

The elbow angle is another alignment that is engaged....if the rider opens the elbow too far, they throw away the contact often hollowing the back tilting the pelvic up bringing the shoulders behind the motion taking the riders'body out of alignment

I really am speaking the same language I think....I may do it in a bit more differenty through articulation/country phrase differences but please be patient while I catch up with some terms
I am also a bit detail anal and will indentifying things like angles used or calf placment vrs application vrs engagement...that is the breaking down of the equitation science of where the calf sits and how the leg lays out of the hip angle to ensure the stability...application is how the rider uses things like the knee angle/knee/ect

The seat "aid" is an example...broken down it is not just the seat "bones" to me...but the actual way riders employ the cores and/or back and/or pelvic and/or left seat bone and/or right seat boneect. as an aid in support to the whole body muscles used
Another words the core/back/seat bone/pelvic all make up the "seat aid" ...it is how the rider uses drop weights or body manipulation (dropping the hip physically instead of just the kinetic energy without moving the shoulder alignment/elbow placment/ankle/calf/thigh as this is one individual aid through the engagement of simply dropping mroe wieght into it)

If a rider stand/rides off the toe over a fence the ankle angle is opened too much on the top...as equitation science/correctriding dictates the following will happen taking the rider out of alignment...they stand on the toes bending the angles of the digits there tensing the sole and arching it a bit....this in turns "lifts"the heel
The lifted heel will affect the calf which affects the knee which affects the hip and so one

Even the minute angle is science and alignment...their engagement and how the rider uses these angles when activating or asking with an aid and how many they angles they incorporate...it is all equitation.

The cores place the shoulders simply through their own alignment (both front and lateral cores) You see it in the front cores when people ride in the fetal position or push their stomach out and in the lateral cores when people have those mean leans in corners or one shoulder is dropped and there is a collapse in the hip resulting from the hip itself.

The ankle controls the heel drop/weight in ball of foot on the iron through the kinetic energy distibution of the weight aid
IMO the weight aid does not go into the heel but into the ankle itself...this is why the ankle must be supple and work as a suspensory....it regulates just how much weight is needed in the ball to keep the iron steady but not enough to cause the toes to numb/curl or have the rider "push" the weight onto the irons opening the knee and causing a chair seat or harely motorcycle syndrome

^^^all this...angles vrs placement vrs activation vrs employment..is the same thing....as I said...we just have different training background/experienc

I have done two Master's degrees, I am a qualified school teacher and I'm now training to be an equine behaviourist which has a scientific basis and still to me, most of this is absolute bloomin gobbledygook!

I don't think I'm alone in feeling that this poster is not able to express themselves with the written word in a coherent way.

I have officially lost the will to live and will not comment again on this thread!!

 

[labruyere]

for those struggling to fathom some of the replies...

IME many riding instructors appear incapable of explaining things in plain language...

because
1) they repeat the mantras that were drilled into them - even though they never understood them either !
2) it disguises that they don't actually know how to do it themselves - if they did they should be able to explain it in several different ways
3) it justifies the cost of the lesson, by making them appear 'clever'

in broad terms there are 2 basic elements to seat aids
1) weight distribution (usually left/right - to influence/create bend)
2) use of the TWO seat bones to influence EACH of the hind legs

if you click on this link you can access my complimentary training course on this subject
which I PROMISE is written in 'normal' English and which has consistently received very positive reviews and feedback
.