VERM-X???????? What is it for?

[Pilib]

Hi all,

I won some Verm X pellets in a horsey raffle. It comes with two free worm count kits which is great as I do worm count my horse and only worm as/when required.

However I am at a total loss as to what these pellets are actually for……….The box doesn’t really say…….. I’ve looked on the web site. It says it maintains intestinal hygiene but doesn’t specifically say it’s a wormer. The benefits on the website are really woolly……….. I have had a good read through and am still none the wiser…………..

WHAT DOES IT DO!!! Am I missing something?

Anyone?

 

[ester]

I believe that it's because they aren't allowed to say that it will reduce the worms in your horse.. hence the wooliness.

They are a member on here .. am sure they will come say how great it is but I would just carry on as you are

 

[Pilib]

I thought it was just me being blonde and totally missing the point of it!!

I'll bin it then and just make use of the worm counts!

 

[lcharles]

The paste is in the sale at countrywide, think its a wormer that has no scientific proof to working! x The fact that its still in the sale after 3 weeks sort of said it all really! x

 

[Verm-XAdvice]

Hello everyone,

My name is Ellie, I work for Verm-X and am here to help answer any Verm-X related questions you may have

Pilib, I am sorry you have found it difficult to gain from our product exactly what it is. Verm-X is a 100% natural formulation and so as we do not use chemicals in our blends our products are not classed as a medicine. This therefore means we are unable to use terminology like 'wormer' on our packaging and website. This also means that we are unable to share our extensive research and testing to show you just how powerful the product is.

We are keen though not to just TELL you what Verm-X does but to prove it to you - on your own horses. That is why the pack you have won contains 2 worm count kits allowing you to do a before and after and see the results for yourself. The worm counts are carried out by Westgate Labs who are independent from us and are fabulous at what they do.

I would like to mention esters comment though as they have raised a very good point. We are big supporters of worm counts and if you are carrying out counts that are regularly coming back low it sounds like you have a very good routine in place already. This pack would have left us with a 2 year shelf life so you have plenty of time to use it in. The BBE date will be on the bottom of each pack of Verm-X if you would like to check this.

I hope this helps shed a bit more light on what we do, if you have any more questions please feel free to ask.

 

[Pilib]

Errr not really? Is it a natural 'wormer' then? but you can't call it a wormer?

I don't think I'll be using a product on my horse without being clear what it is or what it does or what the expected outcome would be.

But thanks anyway.

 

[SpottedCat]

This also means that we are unable to share our extensive research and testing to show you just how powerful the product is.

Please could you show me the legislation which prevents you from doing this? I find it quite strange since there are many published, peer-reviewed articles about all kinds of natural, non-chemical products?

 

[ester]

Hello everyone,

My name is Ellie, I work for Verm-X and am here to help answer any Verm-X related questions you may have

Pilib, I am sorry you have found it difficult to gain from our product exactly what it is. Verm-X is a 100% natural formulation and so as we do not use chemicals in our blends our products are not classed as a medicine. This therefore means we are unable to use terminology like 'wormer' on our packaging and website. This also means that we are unable to share our extensive research and testing to show you just how powerful the product is.

We are keen though not to just TELL you what Verm-X does but to prove it to you - on your own horses. That is why the pack you have won contains 2 worm count kits allowing you to do a before and after and see the results for yourself. The worm counts are carried out by Westgate Labs who are independent from us and are fabulous at what they do.

I would like to mention esters comment though as they have raised a very good point. We are big supporters of worm counts and if you are carrying out counts that are regularly coming back low it sounds like you have a very good routine in place already. This pack would have left us with a 2 year shelf life so you have plenty of time to use it in. The BBE date will be on the bottom of each pack of Verm-X if you would like to check this.

I hope this helps shed a bit more light on what we do, if you have any more questions please feel free to ask.

Sorry but ditto spottedcat!

1) using worm egg counts when n=1 doesn't prove anything, particularly if the owner has no previous egg count history for the horse.
2) there are thousands of research papers about the use of natural products, essential oils are a bit thing in my area currently.. so using this as an excuse for not providing information seems frankly ridiculous.

 

[lachlanandmarcus]

It might be a useful supplement to help a horse who already has low worm burden and a good regime in place (poo picking, tapeworm blood testing (with worming for tape if positive) and worming at least once a year for encysted small redworm plus worm counts for other types of worms).

But very much as an add on, possibly preventative, not as a treatment for any existing worm burden.

They have already been forced to change ads by the Advertising Standards Authority.

The thing that really annoys me about their ads is the 'Veterinary Approved' stamps all over it. Which means nothing except they have found 'a' vet who is willing to endorse it - not that it is generally officially approved by the veterinary profession at all.

I wonder how much the vet in question is being paid, or if its just all the Verm-x he can eat :-DDD.

It makes me cross in their ads because I feel they mislead people into skipping the worming that IS essential as they see it as a direct alternative which it is not.

 

[WelshD]

At least you didnt pay money for it!

 

[Verm-XAdvice]

Hello everyone and thank you all for your posts.

It is a fact of UK and EU law that non-licensed medicinal products, for example herbal wormers , electrolytes and poultices, if not carrying a pharmaceutical license are not permitted to use the names or associated phrases and research results. For clarification of this law visit www.vmd.defra.gov.uk

For example, you will not find and natural 'electrolyte' or 'poultice' that call themselves such available.

Whilst we are, of course, aware that there are people who doubt the efficacy of herbs there are also a large amount of animal owners who appreciate having the choice of being able to use herbs rather than petrochemical derivatives. It is interesting to recall that prior to circa. 1930 there were no artificial chemical products available - only herbs - they have done quite well for over 5000 years!

Any single herb is thought to contain 4-600 active compounds. In most plants, we only know the top dozen medicinal molecules. Herbs are able to affect the body and parasites in ways the pharmaceutical companies can only dream of.

 

[ester]

for those interesetd here is a more direct link to the details. http://www.vmd.defra.gov.uk/mswd/non-med.aspx

'are not permitted to use the names or associated phrases and research results'


could you clarify this statement please, names and associated phrases being 'wormer/worms etc) ? and I am guessing that if there were research results, in order to use them you would then have to be selling it as a medicine?

It reads as though if you conducted research and had it published you would then not be able to use said research in your advertising.. However, I would assume there is nothing to stop you doing and publishing research which would be searchable by the veterinary/research community.. you just couldn't use it to advertise. (which I do get is then a problem!)

With ref to the herbs for the last 5000 years doing a good job, I think it is more likely the horses tbh.. they develop a pretty decent natural resiliance generally.. and if they didn't they died and didn't reproduce

 

[ester]

For anyone with access here is an interesting reference with regards to the use of herbal wormers in chickens from April of this year:
Comparative efficacy of flubendazole and a commercially available herbal wormer against natural infections of Ascaridia galli, Heterakis gallinarum and intestinal Capillaria spp. in chickens

Author(s): Squires, S.; Fisher, M.; Gladstone, O.; et al.
Source: VETERINARY PARASITOLOGY Volume: 185 Issue: 2-4 Pages: 352-354

flubendazole=99.4% effective
herbal = 0-11.6% effective (by actual worm count)

It would be very interesting for a similar study in horses to be carried out. Herbal products might hang around a horse gut a bit longer than a chicken

 

[pines of rome]

It would be interesting to go back in time before the age of chemical worming and find out what they all used then, I bet all the old grooms had allsorts of remedies!

 

[ester]

I think it important to remember horse's lifestyles.
For much of the previous 5000 years horses travelled a lot.. so exposure was low.

POR.. also since man has been using horses I suspect they either didn't live that long for worm damage to be much of an issue, or if they did get colic from it died and were replaced. Also for the many horses kept in cities no grass was eaten either.

It does seem a shame that we don't get to see any of the results from the research verm-x claim to do on their website. Although I am slightly concerned, on welfare grounds, about their 'drive to eradicate the use of chemicals' (if they can eradicate the need for the use of chemicals all very well!)

 

[StarcatcherWilliam]

I'll bin it then and just make use of the worm counts!

Don't bin it! You could sell it on eBay, or give it away on Preloved if you don't want it!

(Sorry, I hate wastage!)

 

[Verm-XAdvice]

Hello ester,

The guidelines we follow stop us from using terminology of medical effect. You may have noticed we have recently had to change our product description from ‘Internal Parasite Control’ to ‘Intestinal Hygiene Control’, this change has been exactly for this reason.

Many companies do not, initially, comply with these rules we as a company have always worked with the DEFRA departments to ensure we
follow the correct guidelines.

We have conducted a lot of research on Verm-X. Years of research was carried out before Verm-X was put on the market and we continue to trial the product to ensure it’s effectiveness. We take what we do extremely seriously and would not want to sell something we were not confident did what we wanted it to do.

I do agree with you about natural resilience also. This is a very good point and as we use more and more products on our animals this partly takes over the work of their natural immune systems. After all, the herbs we use are nothing new, they are just herbs our horses used to be able to source themselves years ago and now cannot.

The trial you refer to was carried out by a chemical company and has since been pulled up as having many ‘school boy’ errors and has been classed now as just a ‘clever’ bit of marketing.

If you do have a spare few minutes I would recommend you watch this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg7sdYsIqSA it is a talk a vet we work with did and he mentions in it the trial you have shared.

It may be worth mentioning that as a company we are not in anyway against any pharmaceuticals and we would gladly use pharmaceutical wormers (and have done with complete success prior to the birth of Verm-X) if we did not have Verm-X to use. As I mentioned before we offer the animal owner a choice, their choice. With 45-50% of horses and 70% of dogs and cats not de-wormed at all we are pleased to be able to offer some of those a way forward, if indeed worming is necessary.

We never try to push our products on anyone, however if you would like to try some Verm-X free of charge, we would be delighted to send you some.

 

[StarcatcherWilliam]

I use Verm-X on my chickens and geese and I'm fairly sure it works. Plus, organic farms use Verm-X as they are not allowed to use conventional wormers - can't see farmers wasting money on products that don't work.

 

[ester]

thanks for your reply.

I can't get full texts on the work computer but will look at the paper more fully when at home.

SW... see fairly sure it works just doesn't cut it with some of us

 

[StarcatcherWilliam]

SW... see fairly sure it works just doesn't cut it with some of us

That's why I don't use it on my horses!! LOL!

Need more evidence and also, I am such a numpty that I rely on Westgate Labs telling me when to worm and what to use!

 

[Verm-XAdvice]

Thank you ester, I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

StarcatcherWilliam - I agree. 'One mans trash is another mans treasure'

 

[pines of rome]

I currently use Ellen Collinson no-verms, which I am pleased with, my old cob from a few years back could not handle chemical wormers when he got to 30 so he went on to verm x he lived to 36 using only this!

 

[Verm-XAdvice]

Hello pines of rome, I am aware of the Ellen Collinson product. Although I am not 100% sure on the herbs they use I believe it is also a 100% natural product.

Herbal preparations offer a much more gentle product for older horses. Verm-X is used by the horses at the Veteran Horse Society for this reason. Our product is also popular for horses prone to laminitis and cushings.

36 is a fanstastic age

 

[thatsmygirl]

I wouldn't use verm x. Not until I see proff it works.