Very Confident,bolshy youngster?

[Persephone]

I have a 16hh+ ISH risisng 3 y/o who is starting to come into some early work.

She has done a fair bit of mini rearing and kicking out whilst being led on the ground which ok I can put down to baby rudeness. I have just bought a Dually halter which I hope will help address this. She was very difficult this morning going to the field, repeatedly rearing and kicking.

In the stable grooming, handling and tacking up she is perfect, tied outside a bit distractable, but nothing really bad. Comes to call in the field no problem.

The problems are really coming in the round pen. I have joined up with stacks of horses successfully so this is how I wanted to start, however as soon as I let the pressure off as she is licking, chewing and locking an ear she will turn in then make a very real threat to kick. I am at my wits end. I can see myself getting hurt by this horse. I can't decide whether it's nasty or lack of respect.

I am thinking she needs to go in tacked up and do more formal lunging/longreining? I would love to do things gently but I am not sure it's going to be safe.

I do always wear gloves when leading, but will be wearing a hat from now on.

Any advice? I am fast going off her!

 

[cheeryplatypus]

Hi
Is she dropping her head to the ground before you ask her in? If not then it may be that although she is thinking...licking chewing, locking on etc...she is not regarding you as the leader, hence the challenges?
I'd send her straight back out and put to work again each time she tries it on (kicking out)as she has to learn to come in nicely and regard you as the leader. Horses dont usually try to kick the leader so it sounds like you are being challenged unfortunately. I dont think lunging is the answer though, she may just try the same thing.

Although you are experienced, I'd watch some join up again as it's maybe just something small that you are missing, have you got someone who can film a session so you can watch it back and try to find out the problem?

How is she in the herd? A more dominant turn out partner may teach your youngster some horsey manners?

 

[Persephone]

She is fine in the herd, she has a confident older mare as a companion who won't take any rubbish

Yes she is dropping her head, she is doing this almost instantly, that's why I don't get it.

She gives all the signs of being ready. Yes that is a good idea, I'll watch a few through again and get Mr P to video us. Good plan!

 

[Elfen]

Whereabouts are you? I have a very large rising three that started being a bit bolshy coming in from the field - I got the help of a chap called guy robertson who's based in east yorkshire. He came and worked with him and showed me what I should be doing. He's fab now, long reining beautifully, been sat on and led round and is behaving really nicely. I'd say work on the ground work more until she starts respecting you a bit more. Good luck

 

[Persephone]

I'm in Dorset!

I have no qualms about handing her over to an expert if need be, I don't think I'm quite there yet, but I am really not liking her much at the moment!

 

[Wheels]

Your title says very confident but her actions to me say she's not very confident and is possibly feeling scared and confused at what you want. She feels safe in her stable and this is why she is OK there.

Can you do a mini join up in the stable or other enclosed area that is smaller than the round pen? Sending away doesn't have to be at a fast pace. Can you teach her to lead in the round pen first and do some other basic groundwork such as yielding forwards, backwards and turn on forehand in hand so that you get control of her feet before you do your join up?

For the leading - I had a young colt who liked to walk behind me and lash out with his front feet which was not pleasant but we got there in the end! Make sure you wear your hat and use a long rope

 

[Persephone]

Ok that's interesting

Could the fact that the last owners liked to use a blue plastic pipe be a cause?

I have been here thinking (I spend a lot of time doing that ) I wonder if it could be the fact that she is loose in the school. Could she connect that with being loose in the field and "moved" with the pipe? Could she be trying to get me before I get her? and she feels threatened in the round pen as she can't actually get away.

I only send her away in a walk or slow trot as she would sweat up anyway which I don't want.

We have done plenty of leading around the pen, back and forwards etc, she has still kicked though.

We don't seem to be able to get through this.

 

[Wheels]

well it does sound like she's feeling threatened for whatever reason & I don't think I'd like to have been chased around with blue pipe either!! Maybe she doesn't feel secure if she is loose, a bit unconventional maybe but could you do join up on a lunge line and just be very wary not to give 'come in' signals down the line and still let it be her decision?

How long have you had her and how long have you been trying to get her to lead & join up? It sounds as if she trusts you well enough if she comes to call and is ok in the stable but there is a trigger there somewhere that changes her, you'll have to think a little more and try and work out what that is I think.

Is there anyone available to watch you work with her and see if they can notice when the change happens, leave you to concentrate on a way of staying out of reach of her feet!

 

[Maesfen]

Just remember that not every horse is a suitable candidate for join up so she might prefer a more traditional approach such as lunging, long reining rather than be told off as she seems to think you are doing when you send her away.

 

[Persephone]

I have had her since August, the first day or two she was good then I got struck into. Thing is she doesn't just kick out once, she goes through a cycle, is it Levade when they come off the ground then kick backwards? she will keep going like that until we get to the field (not far luckily) It's like she explodes upwards! I don't know what the trigger is though. I even make notes each time on MMH in the hope I will spot something.

But I just can't trust her because of it. She is so good in the stable that the vet and I have managed to treat a sarcoid with no sedation, just a headcollar and she was perfect.

I guess she is still settling in. I just don't let myself rise to it, try to keep everything the same.

The only change has been her fibre whatever has some Alfalfa in it. Before she had Apple Chaff and I was missold this and ecause of Christmas I had no choice but to use it. I could change that back, it could be an idea.

 

[Persephone]

Just remember that not every horse is a suitable candidate for join up so she might prefer a more traditional approach such as lunging, long reining rather than be told off as she seems to think you are doing when you send her away.

^^This is what I am wondering ^^

My last horse didn't know what to make of join up either!

 

[Ladydragon]

What's she like just being led around on a halter?

I've got one rising three and at the moment I'm concentrating on making sure he 'follows' when I move and introducing him to having some tack on... We can't get to the school in this weather so it's just the leading around and unexpected stops, starts, turns, back ups etc in the car part and stable area... All rather unexciting but once the lead rope is popped on he does behave and will follow closely on a loose rope with a low head... That could be because he's hoping his head is at the right spot for an ear scratch though... If he starts getting a bit bolshy with anything else he's being introduced to the 'lesson' lead rope (I keep one just for this so he knows) goes on and it's back to the boring sessions of reinforcing manners... I've no time schedule to work to with him though which is a real help...

Not sure if I've explained that very well...

I hope you're able to find a way yourself, or with some assistance, to settle her down...

 

[Persephone]

She is generally ok on a halter until she flips, that is when it gets spectacular.

I am wracking my brains to figure out why she does it. She does follow, but she just can't be trusted not to lash out. I won't have her behind me at all.

 

[Ladydragon]

She is generally ok on a halter until she flips, that is when it gets spectacular.

I am wracking my brains to figure out why she does it. She does follow, but she just can't be trusted not to lash out. I won't have her behind me at all.

Ouch...

Ours has been with us since October - he came straight from a field with little handling... Luckily he's not a particularly pushy critter but we've had to start right from the basics with him...

When I say behind, I mean head at my shoulder - it's just my personal preference that I think that's where he should be, on a loose rope, paying attention to what I'm doing... Definitely not saying it's right, just what suits me... If he starts being a bit pigheaded then I pop the 'lesson' rope on and it's forwards, back, sideways, turns etc - he has to pay attention or trip over himself and it gets him thinking n' paying attention to my expectations...

I hope it's something you can iron out with her with some practical advice from someone more experienced - I don't think I'm ballsy enough myself to deal with one where it was a more dangerous situation...

 

[Caledonia]

I loathe join-up, I think it confuses and worries a lot of horses, and creates trust issues. And I think it sounds like she has lost confidence in you so is looking out for herself.

I'd put her on long reins onto a cavasson, so you can have control of her speed and direction, and go from there. If she flips her head up to rear, then put loose side reins on her so that you don't lose her. Praise every correct step, however small, and don't allow her to be naughty with you, but be very calm, but firm.

If you're not sure about doing this correctly, either bring someone in, or send her away to be started properly, this is the most important stage of a horse's life, and it's vital she starts to think postively now.

ETA, she's really young, so don't do too much, ten minutes of obedient calm repetitive correct work is plenty for a baby, and long rein her out and about the yard and paths as soon as you have the control.
Good luck!

 

[Persephone]

Thank you Caledonia

That all sounds great! I could confidently do that, and I am sure she will respond well. Tbh that's exactly how we used to do it! I swear it's easier!

I am going to just drop the join up, I don't think she is happy with it, and I don't think I can trust her with it tbh which obviously won't help.

I am planning on getting her very lightly backed this year, then turning away until her 4th year.

 

[Wheels]

It sounds a sensible option to drop the join up, particularly in regards to your own safety.

I will also be backing my 3 year old this year - late summer if all goes to plan, next spring if it doesn't.

Good luck with your mare

 

[Persephone]

Thankyou all! I am feeling much more positive now and ready to move forwards with her.

Tonight she has led in like a dream, so it must have looked rather overkill with my hat and gloves lol, but that is the way it is going to stay!

 

[TigerTail]

You can definitely over kill join up to my mind, and if you arent doing it quite right or your timing is off and shes just learned right she turns in, i walk up to her etc then thats not join up.

However she is very over young to be going in side reins etc, she will just build up all the wrong muscles and be stronger than ever to fight you adn you arent actually addressing what is causing the rearing and striking out in the first place.

Id suggest you get your local RA out to observe you with her, and to teach you how to sort things out


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[Caledonia]

Y

However she is very over young to be going in side reins etc, she will just build up all the wrong muscles and be stronger than ever to fight you adn you arent actually addressing what is causing the rearing and striking out in the first place.

Id suggest you get your local RA out to observe you with her, and to teach you how to sort things out

TT - do you even read what is being written?

I wrote - I'd put her on long reins onto a cavasson, so you can have control of her speed and direction, and go from there. If she flips her head up to rear, *then put loose side reins* on her so that you don't lose her.

Personally, I'd avoid RAs like the plague, and go to someone who is a proper horseman/woman, and not just clutching a piece of paper paid for over two days 'training'.

 

[Caledonia]

Thank you Caledonia

That all sounds great! I could confidently do that, and I am sure she will respond well. Tbh that's exactly how we used to do it! I swear it's easier!

I am going to just drop the join up, I don't think she is happy with it, and I don't think I can trust her with it tbh which obviously won't help.

I am planning on getting her very lightly backed this year, then turning away until her 4th year.

No worries. Just keep it simple. Uneducated horses don't 'know' what we want. Keep the education clear, and establish each level before you move onto the next.

Have fun!

 

[TigerTail]

TT - do you even read what is being written?

I wrote - I'd put her on long reins onto a cavasson, so you can have control of her speed and direction, and go from there. If she flips her head up to rear, *then put loose side reins* on her so that you don't lose her.

Personally, I'd avoid RAs like the plague, and go to someone who is a proper horseman/woman, and not just clutching a piece of paper paid for over two days 'training'.

Side reins/draw reins - neither is helpful.

RAs have to complete all of the IH courses, which usually takes at least a year, then do two years of video'd case studies before handing in a psychology assessment and being subject to an examination.

Maybe you should also be careful what you write

 

[Persephone]

ETS TigerTails that trainer in particular did not inspire confidence at all when I saw her in action.

We are lucky to have a few people around with excellent reputations that I can use if need be.

 

[TigerTail]

Really? how come

 

[Caledonia]

Side reins/draw reins - neither is helpful.

RAs have to complete all of the IH courses, which usually takes at least a year, then do two years of video'd case studies before handing in a psychology assessment and being subject to an examination.

Maybe you should also be careful what you write

Are you threatening me?
I know that all that is needed to become an RA is a 2-day course. I know someone who has done this. I was astounded. I would also never let this person start any horse of mine.

I didn't mention draw reins, I said that using loose side reins on a horse that flips up helps keep control. The side rein only comes into play when the horse's behaviour becomes unacceptable or dangerous.

 

[Foxhunter49]

I do not particularly like round pens, I think they very quickly get boring for horses.I agree that every horse is not suitable for join up.

Personally I would get her lungeing and I would also not be afraid to make her sweat. With most horses walking and trotting slowly in circles also gets boring so they need to be A) worked by keeping them moving and B) worked varied. I would rather work a young horse hard for 10 minutes than walking it around for 30.

I do like join up for some horses but not the bolshy type.

 

[sjp1]

Mine comes across as confident and bolshy. Actually he is not confident and when he is worried, he is more than bolshy, he is horrible. 3 years with him and he is an awful lot better. I did a lot of groundwork - but not join up because when fed up he will come at you or double barrell you, and the groundwork helped.

I am not a lover of lungeing - my instructor lunged him a few weeks ago - he went around at 100 miles an hour bucking and kicking and didn't look to me like she had much say in the matter, she was just lucky that on the end of a great lunge line he didn't choose to shoot off because he would have won.

I think circling, and changing direction on a 14ft line is a lot safer. You are far more likely to win and changing direction gets them thinking rather than just going into that trotting or cantering thing they do that they can keep up for ever.

But they do grow up!!! And mine is 7 now, and for the first time the other day after having led other people's horses out who are heavy and dull or have to go out in chifneys, I was really pleased to take mine. Never thought I would have said that!

 

[TigerTail]

Are you threatening me?
I know that all that is needed to become an RA is a 2-day course. I know someone who has done this. I was astounded. I would also never let this person start any horse of mine.

I didn't mention draw reins, I said that using loose side reins on a horse that flips up helps keep control. The side rein only comes into play when the horse's behaviour becomes unacceptable or dangerous.

Good grief you are very defensive Caledonia. No i am not threatening you it was a reminder that whilst we may think we have the facts, we dont always.

It is NOT a two day course. Please click on the link below and the steps to becoming an RA flowchart if you still refuse to believe me.

http://www.intelligenthorsemanship....ed-associate-of-intelligent-horsemanship.html

Im really surprised you didnt like what you saw OP - the one thing you can guarentee with an RA is that they will never be violent or aggressive towards your horse, and having had a professional try that with my youngster I really value that knowledge. Obviously a case of different strokes for different folks

 

[Rudey]

I quickly nipped on here and only read the first few posts as I am off again, and I apologise if someone has already suggested it - but what about taking her to a Monty Roberts demo as a starter horse? All you need to do is ring up, give them all the background of your mare, and they will consider offering her a place. I'm aware he's back in the UK on tour - see for dates and venues on this link.... http://www.montyroberts.com/ab_about_monty_calendar/see-monty/

I took my youngster to his demo, I loved it, and I still cannot believe I went! Definitely worth while. Opportunity of a lifetime! If you are interested, here is my thread on my experience... http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=501625&highlight=monty+roberts

 

[Caledonia]

Good grief you are very defensive Caledonia. No i am not threatening you it was a reminder that whilst we may think we have the facts, we dont always.

It is NOT a two day course. Please click on the link below and the steps to becoming an RA flowchart if you still refuse to believe me.

http://www.intelligenthorsemanship....ed-associate-of-intelligent-horsemanship.html

Not defensive - wondering why I need to be careful what I write?

Perhaps this person's experience in other fields allowed them to skip to the RA, I don't know. But I do know that all that was required was paying for a 2-day course allowing them to use the 'RA' title.

As I said, I was astounded.