Very interesting comments about V poles on fences and making horses careful...

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KatB

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I had a jump lesson today, and we were talking about V poles (or A frames) on fences....

My trainer made a very interesting comment about they're use. She mentioned that people nearly alway use them to make horses neater infront, which in theory is a way of helping them be better and more careful jumpers. However, what V poles actually do is make the highest point of the fence BEHIND the fence itself, so therefore don't actually teach the horses to jump the fence any better...

That's not to say they can't be helpful in backing a horse off a fence a bit.. but it was just an interesting way of looking at it, and one I had never thought of before!! A much better way to make them careful is learning to get your horse in deeper, and keeping it straight thoughout the jump, so they have to power off both hinds equally, and use their shoulders... placing poles and a heavy wooden pole being the ideal tool :)

Another thing she mentioned which made me :o was that some SJers will get horses and "clueless jockeys" to jump the V poles backwards... :o This quite often can result in a horse tipping up if they misjudge it, but then when the main rider gets back on, they have a super careful horse.... scary stuff!!

Food for thought! ;)
 
interesting......iv always thought they are AS good at making a horse sharper behind due to the fact they sit behind the main jump.

agree about getting deeper, and on the rare occasions we jump,i always try and come deep to make CS use his shoulders and not jump like a typical ex racer.

have never jumped V poles backwards, but SJ trainer did used to use very thin metal poles that made a sharp *ping* noise if tapped, as a top pole approx 6 inches above actual fence height, to make them sharper,and of course theres always the old trick of missing them big time at an upright before going in to the ring. not very PC but a lot of people did/do it.......
 
I have used V poles in the past (mainly in lessons) but don't use them on a regular basis.

As for other trickery to get horses to jump cleanly, I really don't have any time for it. If your showjumper doesn't care about leaving them up, its time to consider a career as an eventer ;)
 
I used V poles on Merlin when he was younger - for the sole purpose of making him neater in front.
He jumped with knees dangling to being the most careful horse ever ;)
 
I don't know about helping make them neater in front but they do help get a horse to lift its shoulder better and bascule more, or at last, it has on the ones I've worked with. the highest point is always the top pole though I don't have ends sticking up as tbh I think it's dangerous. so maybe it works differently in different places. ??
 
We only really use them on oxers and put them on the back bar of the oxer so that they have a definitive front bar and can be ridden deep. We would use them for keeping straight and getting them to use their shoulder better
 
KatB said:
My trainer made a very interesting comment about they're use. She mentioned that people nearly alway use them to make horses neater infront, which in theory is a way of helping them be better and more careful jumpers. However, what V poles actually do is make the highest point of the fence BEHIND the fence itself, so therefore don't actually teach the horses to jump the fence any better...
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Umm, I don't get what you mean by this, how does it make the highest point of the fence behind the fence?
When I use V poles, i have them just to the same level as the front bar, or, for a specific straightness/dangling problem, I might have them a tiny bit higher. Is this how you mean? Surely the highest point is the bar itself, or the back bar if it's an ascending oxer?

I've never heard of jumping them backwards, sound mental.

The sj trick of having the back bar of an oxer lower actually works for certain problems, but it scares the beejeezus out of me, I only do it under very fierce instruction!
 
i think i am being stupid as well because when i have V poles they rest on the front rail so they never stick up over the height of it?
 
millitiger said:
i think i am being stupid as well because when i have V poles they rest on the front rail so they never stick up over the height of it?
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hey, don't call me stupid! ;) ;);)

Oh, okay, maybe I am stupid... I don't get it, can the highest poing of V poles be behind the fence? unless the Vs are from the back bar to the ground beyond the fence..
i've seen pics of Ginny Leng jumping a fence with parallel poles like that (for straightness) but definitely not V poles.
 
Im a big fan of V fences but always thought it was to get a horse to jump through its shoulders there fore pick up in front?!

Putting the v behind just sounds mental!
 
I think V poles are good for straightness and to help the horse jump in the middle of the fence but agree they may not work as an aid to get the horse more careful with it's front end. My youngster never over jumps v poles, he jumps them as if they weren't even there. I use them more to keep him straight :). A BSJA accredited trainer I did a clinic with a the weekend put just one v pole on the right hand side of the fence to stop us (me?!) drifting right through a double. :)
Same trainer also explained that straightness gives the horse power :)
 
Very interesting! My previous RI used them with us to try and get C to pick up more because he can be a bit casual with smaller fences and I wasn't willing to put the height up just yet.

Sometimes it work but he just started to drift and aim for the heights point of the fence.
 
agree with the straightness. With youngsters we often put half a v on the floor to keep them straight rather than resting it on the jump.
 
Sounds more like A poles to me, A poles met over the height of the fence and therefore form an A, V poles either meet at the height of the pole and form an upsidedown V or can be used further apart to help with straightness I have used the V poles a fair bit, never A poles as your instructor correctly point out the highest point then becomes behind the fence and I think they can be quite dangerous.
 
i've only used V poles for straightness... i find that horses that are careless in front are careless full stop- yes the first few times to a V they might pick up- but they soon work out that they can clonk it like any other fence... i actually prefer to build a really steep sided cross as this makes them really straight and really careful (or always has with my horses) but you have to be careful not to scare them as the gap can end up really teensy! also a fan of 'missing' them in the collecting ring- not if the horse is jumping well, but if its being ignorant in the warm up then can do a world of good in the actual ring :)
 
millitiger said:
maybe that's my mistake then- i always assume people are talking about the same things when they say A frame or V frame...
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me too, esp as in the original post KatB said both!
I've never seen anyone set up a true V, but parallel poles do work to channel a horse straight. I prefer diggerbez's high X poles though, I think these really work.
I've never put the top of A poles more than a few inches above the front bar, either. Can't see why anyone would... surely if you want more height then putting the bar higher would be better, otherwise a smart horse will try to jump to the side of the sticking-up part?!
I think maybe we need to differentiate between horses that are 'casual' in front i.e. haven't got a good technique yet, so need to be taught not to dangle, and those that are careless i.e. really don't care if they clonk a fence. The former can benefit from X and A poles, I'm not sure the latter can, I think they need different exercises.
 
I'm not sure what is wrong with the highest point of the fence being being to the back - this is the case with most spreads and no one minds! Or am I missing the point? (probably).

When I show jumped we used A frames or V poles a lot in schooling. They do work to help the horse get into the air and not dangle. And they also help the rider get a bit deeper to the fence as they look towards the V and are less likely to take a flyer. That is probably just psychology but it does work.
 
Ok, only just been able to return to this!

Basically, I was referring to V poles and A frames (whatever you want to refer to them as) where the top end of the pole is above the height of the fence being jumped.

To teach a horse to jump correctly, you want them to sit back on their hocks, and bring their shoulders up and back. A frames can give a good feeling as they give extra height, so give the feeling of a better jump, but a horse can get away with jumping the fence bigger, without correcting it's technique, as they can still jump flat across the fence, as the highest point is beyond the fence itself. They CAN help improve the jump if combined with a placing pole to get the horse close to the fence, BUT if the horse is being made to jump square anyway, you would get the same effect without the A frame.

In regards to making a horse jump straight, a proper set of V poles with the ends almost touching wouldn't really help with that anyway, as a clever horse will always jump slightly to the side to jump the lower part of the fence (Tim Stockdale mentioned this too actually) V poles further apart can help the rider, but you are actually better off focussing at something in the distance to make sure you are jumping square, as you can still be in the middle of the fence without jumping straight ;)

If you are having problems with straightness, putting a pole on the landing side like:

I
____

a good 3 or 4 yards from the fence, can focus the rider and make the horse look and help stay straight, but you need to make sure it's not too close to the fence as a) they can land on it if they're not straight and b) it can spoil the horses jump if they are aware of it too close to the fence, it needs to be far enough away that you are looking forward towards it :)

In regards to jumping fences with an A frame on it backwards, it does happen which is blooming scary when you think how clueless or how much trust you would put in someone to jump that if you were told to!!!!
 
PURELY my opinion,V and/or A poles are away to 'trick' a horse into jumping higher than he needs to over a fence,whether he carries this into competition situations,relies only on the horse's attitude. I consider it unfair,but on the other hand ,'can' be useful on a totally uncareful horse....
To 'sharpen' a good horse,I would use a double of parallels at 10 metres,without groundlines,NOT higher than 1m but widening the oxers,jumping from both sides,OR, a line of three cross-poles with ground poles between,heightening the crosses... Pole-2.8m-cross-2.8m-pole-2.8m-cross-2.8m-pole-2.8m-cross-2.8m-pole.
These are excercises that a horse can figure out,without being misled,but then maybe you could win more classes doing things another way?
Not for me though.... happy horses are more my thing;-)
 
exactly what my instructor was saying Louisem. She was saying you don't get them in the ring, so why use them at home? Its better to educate rather than get quick fixes :)
 
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