*Very long* I don't know what to do...

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Elvis

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...with Elvis. I've been really struggling with schooling him, I have lessons very regularly and I just feel so stuck, he's not easy to work correctly. And is generally a bit bad tempered to ride, he'll stick in a buck if you tap him with the whip, will jump around if you ask him to do something he doesn't want to do, and just has a bit of a 'make me' attidude.

He hasn't always been like this, but then when I bought him he wasn't in much work. I can just about handle his moments, I don't mind when they happen, it's just I don't tell him off when they do happen, I just ignore and ride him forward as I know if you chastise him he'll just have a bigger tantrum.

I already pay the yard to hack him as he can be a bit stupid, again tantrums not spookiness or traffic fears. And they've got him to the stage where he hacks out in company behind well and I was planning on starting to hack him with an instructor next week. They can't get him to go infront without big persistent tantrums, and we haven't tried him alone as the yard doesn't have a member of staff at the right level to try.

I do genuinely believe he will come out the other side of this and it isn't permanent. A more experienced jockey wouldn't have a problem.

I have had the vet out to check him hundreds of times to make sure his attitude isn't pain related, and after multiple tests, x-rays, bute trials etc the vet has said he is in perfect health. And all dental, physio, saddle appointments are up to date.

I love this horse so much, he is the biggest sweetheart on the ground, and apart from his tantrums when ridden he is brilliant, the easiest horse to do and be around.

This has all come to a head because I went to watch him being schooled by one of the yard staff with my mum, since my schooling with him really isn't going anywhere. My mum spent the whole time saying if I didn't fear Elvis I would be able to ride him better, and I need to push him through his tantrums and tell him off. She basically said I had no confidence on him and I need to just get it back. What she doesn't understand is I've fallen off him more times than I care to count and that I work so hard to be confident on him, but when he's had some pretty spectacular (and scary) moments in the past, it's a real struggle to put that to the back of my mind, even though he hasn't had a proper tantrum in weeks. It hasn't stopped me riding him and it's not like I sit there paralysed with fear, I just can't truly relax 100%

It doesn't help that my instructor tells me how much more relaxed I am when I ride the other horses at the yard. It's not that I feel tense on Elvis, it's just I know what he can be like and I'm ready. And when I'm on a new horse, I know nothing about them and just assume they are safe (they are RS horses after all). My instructor is on my side but believes I'd be better with something else. But I love Elvis so much and don't want to give up on him.

How do you know when it's time to admit defeat and move on, I'd love to be competing every weekend on something easy, safe and uncomplicated. But I've always been willing to wait for Elvis even if that meant years.

I just feel so torn, if I stick with Elvis it's going to mean lots of support, I'll probably need to hire lots of arenas to get him used to going out and about, then get someone else to ride him at his first competitions, I'm not sure I'll ever feel confident enough to hack him alone, or leading in company. But then maybe it'll all be fine, and he'll come out of this phase and I'll be able to forget his past behaviour.

But then if I get rid of him I've got to lose him, and I don't know if I'll ever be as fond of another horse.
 
Yes, you are very likely to be as fond of another horse. In fact if the next horse is more suitable for you there is every likelihood that you will be even more fond of him. For heaven's sake, if you and the horse are not happy together then pass him along to someone who may be a better fit for him, and go look for a horse that doesn't scare the heeby-jeebies out of you!
 
Its up to you how much more effort you put into him just for the chance it might click and work out. To me, you are doing all you can do, the lessons, other people schooling/hacking him out. Is he going significantly better with someone else on board with more confidence? Another option is sending him away for full reschooling/competition livery, but then you would still have your confidence issues to work on.

You have to remember here that horses are supposed to be our hobbies and you are supposed to enjoy it, which you don't really sound as if you are. As Cortez said, you will equally be as fond as another horses that you can have some more fun and confidence on.

Im pretty sure I have read numerous other thread on here with people in a similar situation, who have gone on and sold said horse and got another one who they are having so much fun on and saying they were so glad they did it!
 
I am happy with him, and I'd like to think he's happy with me.
But what if he completely settles down and becomes the horse I thought he'd be?
It's awful to say but if he was a b****r on the ground I think it'd be easy to move on but he's just the most fantastic horse to be around.
I had thought about schooling livery somewhere else, as if I sold him I'd send him away for a few weeks to brush him up a bit anyway, so maybe it's worth a try before? I think my confidence would come back if I saw him being good with someone else, especially in regards to hacking and competing.

And he's still tricky for more experienced rider, but will eventually cooperate nicely for them. With me it's very hit and miss. However these riders aren't professionals just slightly more confident and experienced riders. I think he'd probably test a professional and then give up and work beautifully.

Thank you for your comments.
 
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Sometimes you just have to swallow your stomach back to where it belongs, hide the fear and 'grow a pair'.... And I think it is one of THE HARDEST things to do in the world. You are going against everything your mind tells you to do and putting yourself in a dangerous situation. However if you want to ride your horse properly you will have to man up and get on. Otherwise just sell him.

If you want to carry on and push through it.....and that is all he requires.....then you need to get the attitude of 'yeh I am gona bl**dy make you!' And it doesn't mean that you thump it etc....just ride strongly and ensure he does every exercise you want (even if it is done on two back legs!) I'd get a nice short whip with a good flex and large end bit to use by the leg (not a schooling whip as this may tickle and give him an excuse!). But you have to change your attitude! He's walking all over all of you it seems!
 
Oh poor you! Its all about confidence and it sounds like Elvis has taken all of yours and jumped up and down on it! Its very hard to trust a horse again once its scared you a few times - it happens to a lot of people (myself included) - I'm sure its not an issue about your riding ability or technique - its about confidence and trust, and that can be very hard to re-build. I admire people that stick with it and battle on -I equally admire people that can say 'enough is enough' and find themselves a new 'partner'. Only YOU know the answer to that. Take your time, be kind to yourself and trust your instinct. Good luck.

ps. sometimes a new trainer can bring a breath of fresh air and a new perspective on things.......
 
TandD said:
Sometimes you just have to swallow your stomach back to where it belongs, hide the fear and 'grow a pair'.... And I think it is one of THE HARDEST things to do in the world. You are going against everything your mind tells you to do and putting yourself in a dangerous situation. However if you want to ride your horse properly you will have to man up and get on. Otherwise just sell him.

If you want to carry on and push through it.....and that is all he requires.....then you need to get the attitude of 'yeh I am gona bl**dy make you!' And it doesn't mean that you thump it etc....just ride strongly and ensure he does every exercise you want (even if it is done on two back legs!) I'd get a nice short whip with a good flex and large end bit to use by the leg (not a schooling whip as this may tickle and give him an excuse!). But you have to change your attitude! He's walking all over all of you it seems!
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This is what's hard, I'm pushing myself as far as I can I think. I always ride him forwards and strongly from any tantrums, I just don't tell him off using the whip. The problem is he can get me off, and so if I push him further I'll likely just end up on the floor. My instructor has openly told me he isn't easy and is a general ****. It's the fact that he can over react and gives little warning. I'm having lessons without stirrups on other horses to try and improve my seat too.
 
littleshetland said:
Oh poor you! Its all about confidence and it sounds like Elvis has taken all of yours and jumped up and down on it! Its very hard to trust a horse again once its scared you a few times - it happens to a lot of people (myself included) - I'm sure its not an issue about your riding ability or technique - its about confidence and trust, and that can be very hard to re-build. I admire people that stick with it and battle on -I equally admire people that can say 'enough is enough' and find themselves a new 'partner'. Only YOU know the answer to that. Take your time, be kind to yourself and trust your instinct. Good luck.

ps. sometimes a new trainer can bring a breath of fresh air and a new perspective on things.......
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Thank you, my confidence has remained quite resilient compared with the past, there was a time I'd jump off any horse that bucked or reared, let alone work through some of Elvis' explosions but there is a line and I think I'm getting pretty close to it. I just feel like a failure, I took on this horse and had such high hopes, this was my chance to really do it, and I just can't face giving up.

And yes, I have 2 instructors who work together and they are great, they understand Elvis, and know how to get the best out of me. But if I do send him off for schooling I would also have lessons off the instructor riding Elvis.
 
I think it would be useful to get a very very good rider to give him a few schooling sessions and really push him through his moments. It's all good just letting him bounce around and have a tantrum but I expect what he needs is to be got hold of, have a sharp whack with a whip, a large PC boot and be told that behaviour like that is totally unacceptable! It's stopping the tantrum before it even starts..... A pro rider will do this!
 
Could you do some ground work with him to build up your relationship? Something along the lines of Emma Massingale on HorseHero - you can read her blog by registering for free.
Are there any in-hand horse agility competitions near you? Can you look online for in-hand exercises that appeal to you, so that you are "working" Elvis from the ground (so you can't fall off!) and continue to improver your riding and confidence with lessons on other horses.
I'm just trying to think of other ways for you to build both your technical riding skills (stick ability) without further risk to yourself, while also improving Elvis' attitude to your authority.
Ignore me if I am talking rubbish, but if you have a good bond with him on the ground, then it seems a shame to waste that and spend more time getting to know a new horse.
Good luck!
 
TandD said:
I think it would be useful to get a very very good rider to give him a few schooling sessions and really push him through his moments. It's all good just letting him bounce around and have a tantrum but I expect what he needs is to be got hold of, have a sharp whack with a whip, a large PC boot and be told that behaviour like that is totally unacceptable! It's stopping the tantrum before it even starts..... A pro rider will do this!
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Yes, I think this might be the way to go, maybe send him away to a pro, but visit a few times a week to watch him schooled, and how they deal with things, have a couple of lessons, and if I don't feel any differently confidence wise then I put him up for sale. Either way the schooling will be beneficial.
 
undergroundoli said:
Are you enjoying what you and Elvis do together?

That is the only question really.
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I enjoy jumping him, but then we are working at a level well below where I would like to be.

I don't enjoy schooling him most of the time, even now and again, there is a flash of hope when he feels like he's starting to work properly but this only happens every few weeks.

I don't enjoy hacking him, but that's partly my fault, I'm not a great fan of hacking and only enjoy it on horses I feel 100% safe on.

I love being around him though.
 
Garnet said:
Could you do some ground work with him to build up your relationship? Something along the lines of Emma Massingale on HorseHero - you can read her blog by registering for free.
Are there any in-hand horse agility competitions near you? Can you look online for in-hand exercises that appeal to you, so that you are "working" Elvis from the ground (so you can't fall off!) and continue to improver your riding and confidence with lessons on other horses.
I'm just trying to think of other ways for you to build both your technical riding skills (stick ability) without further risk to yourself, while also improving Elvis' attitude to your authority.
Ignore me if I am talking rubbish, but if you have a good bond with him on the ground, then it seems a shame to waste that and spend more time getting to know a new horse.
Good luck!
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It's difficult, I don't overly enjoy ground work. Elvis uses lunging as his woo-hoo time, which is fine. It's very controllable and he isn't strong in any way he just like to have a buck and a fart.

But other than that he's very respectful on the ground, to the extent where I can leave his stable door open, tell him to stay and he does. He moves over when asked, and will even leave a feed bucket if I ask him to. His issues only manifest under saddle. :(
 
TandD said:
I think it would be useful to get a very very good rider to give him a few schooling sessions and really push him through his moments. It's all good just letting him bounce around and have a tantrum but I expect what he needs is to be got hold of, have a sharp whack with a whip, a large PC boot and be told that behaviour like that is totally unacceptable! It's stopping the tantrum before it even starts..... A pro rider will do this!
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Whenever I've had big problems before, my solution has always been to send to another professional who has bigger ba*** than I've got! I costs a bit of money, but it could be the solution for you and if you decide to part company with Elvis, they can help you sell him. I guess life is too short to NOT enjoy our horses. Good luck again!
 
it's an expensive hobby and it is supposed to be enjoyable. It sounds like you have given this horse more than a fair shot and that you's aren't well matched. If I was in your boat I'd sell and get a new horse that I could go out and have fun with. For the horses sake as well, he could find an owner that enjoys a challenge and is well able for him.

You have to step back and look at it objectively. What are the goals and aims you had for enjoying your horse? Can you achieve them on this horse? If the ansers no then its not the right horse. No point sticking at it if things aren't getting better, you have given it your best shot. If you get another horse you will probably love it more as you will have wonderful experiences of bringing it out safely and confidently to the shows and treks you want to do.

you can love a horse but it still mightn't be the right match for you.
 
It's not giving up at all. At the end of the day horses cost a bloody lot of money and what is the point in spending that if you aren't enjoying it?

Could just be a simple case of he isn't the right horse for you and the perfect neddy is just round the corner waiting for you.
 
I empathise with your position. However, Elvis' behaviour with YOU in the saddle will not change if you don't change. Personally, I would not want to ride a horse that I had to fight with EVERY time I rode. Sell him to a home you have vetted then find a horse who will be your friend on the ground AND with you in the saddle. Life is too short to be scared of the thing that's supposed to make you happy. Good luck X
 
Thank you everyone.

My goals with Elvis or any horse I have is to do a bit of everything. I don't want a world beater I just want to be able to hack alone and in company and be 100% relaxed, I want a horse that I can hunt, take cross country, do some show jumping and some dressage. Maybe I'd get there with Elvis one day, at least I'd hope so with the dressage and Showjumping, the hacking and hunting are dubious though.
 
I do not know what you mean by 'working properly', if he is generally obedient and off the leg he may be a horse who finds schooling boring. I would get a good rider to take him hunting and see if it changes his outlook, then turn him away and start when the weather gets a bit better.
I'm a Mum and taught both my daughters to ride but sometimes we need to keep our mouth shut, which easier said than done. We all want to ride well, but sometimes horse and rider just do not click but that is not anyone's fault it just is, if you rode your horse for the first time today would you still buy him? Thinking rationally are you going to be able to go forward together doing what you want to do?
A long time ago I sold a horse because she was a difficult ride, I could ride her and never felt unsafe but she was just unpredictable. I bought a nice cheap quite pony that I and my daughter could ride and we all had fun with her, one of the best decisions I ever made.
 
This is a very hard place to be particularily if you only have one horse .
A horse that's difficult in the school and hard to hack is demoralising ( If they are good at one the the other being difficult does not seem so bad ).
I have owned some difficult horses but I always loved working them despite this of course everyone can get a off time with a horse but it usually does not last long .
You need to examine what you want would you be happy to pour all your time and money into Elvis just to look after him ? Or do you want more for you out of it ?
If you decide you want more for you they find him a new home with a rider who suits him more.
Of course this a 'down ' time of year for people and some horses too perhaps make some goals to get to by a fixed date say the end of April then reassess how you feel.
 
Having horses is expensive and time consuming....and it is supposed to be FUN! (although in this weather I am seriously wondering where the fun has gone). If riding him doesn't make you smile, then maybe it is time you moved on.
 
honetpot said:
I do not know what you mean by 'working properly', if he is generally obedient and off the leg he may be a horse who finds schooling boring. I would get a good rider to take him hunting and see if it changes his outlook, then turn him away and start when the weather gets a bit better.
I'm a Mum and taught both my daughters to ride but sometimes we need to keep our mouth shut, which easier said than done. We all want to ride well, but sometimes horse and rider just do not click but that is not anyone's fault it just is, if you rode your horse for the first time today would you still buy him? Thinking rationally are you going to be able to go forward together doing what you want to do?
A long time ago I sold a horse because she was a difficult ride, I could ride her and never felt unsafe but she was just unpredictable. I bought a nice cheap quite pony that I and my daughter could ride and we all had fun with her, one of the best decisions I ever made.
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Hmmmm obedient of the leg is difficult, forward yes but he's lazy, sideways not so much, that's often when tantrums come out. He had a long break over summer until October through injury, so has had plenty of time off from schooling. We've tried breaks from schooling, we've tried intensive schooling, we've tried just hacking. Nothing seems to make a difference. He's better when jumping, so we try and incorporate poles whenever we can, he's now on 2xschooling, 2xhacking, 1xlunging. He likes cross country so I'm sure he'd enjoy hunting, but I expect he'd be very excitable and although I could find a rider to take him out, I think he'd then be a bit sily when hacking with the yard staff, as the hunt is very local to us and use the same routes etc.
 
Goldenstar said:
This is a very hard place to be particularily if you only have one horse .
A horse that's difficult in the school and hard to hack is demoralising ( If they are good at one the the other being difficult does not seem so bad ).
I have owned some difficult horses but I always loved working them despite this of course everyone can get a off time with a horse but it usually does not last long .
You need to examine what you want would you be happy to pour all your time and money into Elvis just to look after him ? Or do you want more for you out of it ?
If you decide you want more for you they find him a new home with a rider who suits him more.
Of course this a 'down ' time of year for people and some horses too perhaps make some goals to get to by a fixed date say the end of April then reassess how you feel.
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It is demoralising, but I pin my hopes on these glimmers of things working every now and again. And yes I'll give it a couple more weeks, then decide whether I want to send Elvis for some pro schooling and then go from there.
 
and Elvis is saying if you stick with me and stop being a scaredy cat, I am going to make a better rider out of you, so breathe, forget what happened yesterday, you fell off or whatever, today is a new day and be positive and relax, I am sure you will find Elvis works better for you.
 
I always found with my horse (who used to stand vertical, spin, buck etc when he didn't want to do something) that the 2nd tap of the whip was the most effective. The first tap he'd throw his toys out the pram scare me half to death, but if quickly used again he'd completely give in & realise I meant business. It does take some guts to do it because you fear an even bigger explosion but without fail he always gave in. This gradually gave me more confidence, and I think sometimes you just have to do it yourself rather than pay a better rider, because some horses will always test if they feel a weakness/fear & boy does it make you a better rider when you come out the other side. I've found the use of person on bike when first trying to hack solo a great help. The horse seems to see it as a horse/human hybrid & takes some comfort & gradually the cyclist can hang back a bit but you feel more confident because you know someone is close at hand if things start to go pear shaped. And sing out loud to yourself it definitely helps relax you!
Good luck!
 
Your Elvis sounds a lot like one of my horses - he is very talented but well 'quirky' probably does him justice. He has huge tantrums whenever we teach him something new - lateral work being a prime example - but once he gets it then he is happy to do it. He was very good to hack as a youngster but a couple of scary incidents out on the roads caused me to stop hacking him out before we had/caused an accident. He is also excellent to handle on the ground.

He is now being ridden by a young girl who loves jumping as much as he does and doesn't put him under pressure with his flat work. He is a few years older now and whilst I won't let her hack him he does seem more settled. I am now riding my other horses but my trainer has to keep reminding me that I am not on the Ginger Nut as he has trained me rather too well to expect the worst to happen!

I guess what I am trying to say is that if you aren't gaining confidence in riding Elvis then I would suggest looking to see if someone like Michael Pearce can help. If not I would be thinking that there is no shame in selling him and buying something better suited to you before your confidence is shot to pieces.
 
putasocinit said:
and Elvis is saying if you stick with me and stop being a scaredy cat, I am going to make a better rider out of you, so breathe, forget what happened yesterday, you fell off or whatever, today is a new day and be positive and relax, I am sure you will find Elvis works better for you.
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Stop being a scaredy cat...right and how do you go about that? I'm not someone who is giving up at the first sign of difficulty, this is ongoing, I am still working through this, and will do everything in my power to overcome this. However if it was simply a case of flick a switch and suddenly I am the most gong ho fearless rider I would have done that by now. It's not like I'm refusing to get on him, I get on him, and complete the lesson regardless of his behaviour.

Apologies if this comes across rudely, but my confidence is something I really try to work on and push, and the thing that has often kept me going is telling myself that doing this will make me a better rider. All I want to be is a brave rider, I long for that more than anything else.
 
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