Very, very, very strong horse...help!!!

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Miss-E

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Hi,

Apologies for the length of this post I wanted to provide as much info as I could. I currently own my own little IDx mare and she is fine. The problem I have is when I exercise a friend's horse for her. He is a 17'3 ex hunter and he is the strongest horse I have ever ridden! He is ok in walk and trot, although in trot he constantly tries to break into a canter and I find sitting deep and using my voice to ask him to "Woah" works ok. However, when he gets up front on an area where he can canter he goes loopy. He will pull me, so, so hard that eventually he gets away from me. If he doesnt do that and you do, somehow, manage to hold him he shakes his head and goes into a canter stride where he is throwing his front legs upwards and outwards (it feels like a mini rear, but he is still moving). If he is cantering he sometimes locks his neck and will drag you a certain way and no amount of leg, hand or seat will turn him. He doesn't like a lot of contact on his mouth so I try to keep it to a minimum, but he doesn't leave me with a great deal of choice when he is trying to gallop and I don't want him to/ it's not safe for anyone concerned to let him do so! I just want to point out that I can really exert a lot of force if I have to. I am 6 ft 2 and pretty fit and strong, but the way this horse pulls is phenominal. At the moment I take him out with someone else riding my little mare up front to use her presence to help calm him, he is really hard to get to go out on his own, and he sticks like glue to her. Its a good job she doesn't kick when someone is on her because if he is allowed to he will get right up her bum and stresses if he's told to keep his distance. He will breathe like a freight train the whole way round and jog, constantly. Taking him out with more than 1 other horse however will make him much, much worse.

He was ridden in a dutch gag; apparently that made him even worse. He is now ridden in a waterford snaffle with a running martingale (he carries his head very very high) which he is a little better in, but he still gets really aggitated with any contact on his mouth. He's had his teeth and back checked; they are fine. His saddle fits him fine. He does have a condition in his front feet which makes them sore, however he's had corrective shoeing and the vet recommends he continues normal work.

Unfortunately I wish I had enough time with him to attempt to retrain him, so he does what my horse does and will stop just by deepening your seat, with a voice command with a little pressure on the reigns, but I only tend to ride him once or twice a week for her. Can anyone suggest anything that I could try doing with him to help with this problem? It's getting to the stage where I get anxious before I ride him, so far I have always managed to pull him up if he has got away from me or I have kept hold of him, but I don't want this situation to continue because it is dangerous for everyone concerned!

He does not get a lot of feed for his size. He gets two big nets of dry haylage and 2 feeds a day of chop (no molasses), speedi-beet and a bit of pasture mix.

Any suggestions would really be appreciated. Also one last point. He is just as bad with his owner. Sometimes she literally cannot stop him. There have been occassions where he has gone charging through ditches, woodland, and barbed wire fences and come out bleeding, hence any input into things I could do whilst riding him to keep him calm would be greatly appreciated.
 
Where are you based? I'm inclined to agree with you that it sounds like he needs some proper schooling. There may be someone in your area who would be able to help with riding him then teaching your friend how to become more effective with him,
 
Have you try bridging your reins? It is a lot harder to hold them when sitting, try banging your stirrups up a good few holes, bridging your reins on his neck, but your lower leg fowards, bottom back, and get out of the saddle, using your body weight. Bridiging the reins on his neck , keeping your hands still and low means that he will be pulling against himself.
 
It sounds like he is getting his head above the point you can fix it, and he is not engaged behind so he can get away with what he's doing.

I would put him in a bungee- a stretchy rope that goes over the head and through the bit rings and clips onto the girth between the legs- this will encourage a lower head carriage. Keep your hands wide and low and ABORT THE FOETAL POSITION!! try not to let him fix his head, neck or shoulder by doing flexions, this will all help break up the underneck muscles and give you back some control! I would school him for 6 weeks and then start with small hacks at walk only. If he won't go out on his own then get someone behind him with a bucket of water to send him forwards! This is him dominating, and it can not be allowed to continue!
 
If he holds weight OK, can you get him switched to hay (soaked if poss), cut out all feed etc basic non-mollassed chaff and some supplements if necessary (D&H Equibites?)? Just see if it makes a difference?

Have you tried one-rein-stops?
 
This is often the problem exercising someone else's horse, really it sounds as though he needs some serious schooling after having all back / teeth checks done BUT he's not yours and unless your friend is willing to put the effort in too then you're swimming against the tide a bit.
Sometimes friend or not you have to leave well alone and walk away although I hope you can find a solution as it sounds like you'd love to be able to help him. :)
 
Personally I wouldn't be riding it. If it takes off over ditches, hedges, barbed wire etc then there doesn't sound like it has much self preservation! It's not your horse so why should you put yourself in danger?
 
I agree I'm the owner of a strong horse but definitely wouldn't ride one for someone else ! Try a kineton or combination/lever noseband
 
Has he been tried in something with a curb chain on it? A lot of horses work very well with a curb, it seems to be some kind of reflex point, it does not necessarily mean that the bit is more severe, it may just mean that he is better with a spread of action between mouth, poll and chin groove.

I'd go first for a straight pelham with two reins so you can choose the action. I'd avoid a jointed pelham except as a last resort, I think they are a confused abomination of a bit and my own hunter bolted in one when I tried it.

If the pelham works but not quite well enough, a Liverpool will give you more leverage. I also find a mikmar very, very effective on my puller.

I don't disagree with anyone who says that this horse needs schooling, but you need to be safe and he is an awfully big horse for you. No bit is severe in itself, it is only as severe as the hands on the end of the reins make it.
 
Kineton nosebands are great for strong horses as are Myler combination bits. It sound like he needs reminding who's boss but remember to be safe, its not worth getting hurt especially on someone elses horse...
 
What is the condition he has in his front feet? I know the vet said carry on riding once he'd had the corrective shoeing, but are you absolutely sure he has no pain? Has he always been like this?

Friend or not, I think you should stop riding this horse for the owner before you have an accident. He needs some serious daily re-schooling and if he is starting to un-nerve you that's doing neither of you any good.
 
Loads of good suggestions above!

Personally I would change Haylage for Hay, cut out the mix and anything mollassed.

I would also be thinking about a combination bit/noseband. Otherwise have you considered a Market Harborough? It may do your work for you!
 
Tammytoo said:
What is the condition he has in his front feet? I know the vet said carry on riding once he'd had the corrective shoeing, but are you absolutely sure he has no pain? Has he always been like this?
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Actually this raises a good point, not definitive by any means but you could try a bute teat on him one day to see if he still behaves the same way?
Years ago a friends horse was misbehaving, he'd been remedially shod for navicular and the vet had given them the all clear to carry on work, after he ditched her half a dozen times and a few other people had gotten on him to 'show him who's boss' he was eventually sold to a dealer - I heard a few months later that he'd been PTS as his feet were actually the problem and he'd been in pain.
 
Don't ride it. He sounds like an accident waiting to happen and very very tense. You have a lovely little mare of your own, why risk everything??
 
I've got mine in a nathe cheltenham gag with nylon cheeks (quicker effect than leather). It was very expensive (£150) but goodness what a difference. I was told by 2 instructors (both of whom I respect) that it looked really dangerous. When I lost him doing jumpcross:eek::eek: I realised I had to act. Good luck
 
One of the event horses I used to ride was both lovely to ride on the flat and a confirmed bolter out hacking. Taking him to the gallops was erm, 'interesting'

Essentially, he was ridden XC in a pelham with 2 curb chains in a criss-cross, if that makes sense, and was just about under control.

I really dont recommend this lightly, and would always go for health checks, schooling etc. Getting tanked through hedges etc sounds pretty scary to me, and I cant say I would be keen to get on him at all to hack.
 
In his hey day, my boy used to be very strong, and he had been hunted before I got him.
I went through all the stronger and stronger bits, including the pelham with curb chain, dropped nose band and martingale but I eventually found the harder the bit, the harder he would fight.
I ended up with a Market Harborough, and for X country I used a bubble three ring Happy Mouth (soft in his mouth but some poll pressure) and the MH kept his head from going up.
For hacking where I might have a canter, I found the MH with a french link hanging cheek snaffle, again not too hard on his mouth but some poll pressure. If I needed to slow him or I could even stop him mid canter by giving quite strong pulls (not jabs) and then ease slightly and ssome more strong pulls if he didn't listen the first time.
He was a wuss out on his own, better with one for company and a loony with more than two! I think the hunting experience did that for him.
After years of gaining confidence in stopping him, I realised that really concentrating in trying to relax my back, arms, shoulders, bum and thighs really made a difference b/c I think he was anticipating a gallop when I tensed up on the reins and in my body but if I could keep relaxed but secure, he would relax too.
I found the single jointed snaffle would hit the roof of his mouth and that made him throw his head up - poor boy.:o
Good luck, he is a bigger boy than mine but it's still scary if you think you might not stop:eek:
 
dominobrown said:
Have you try bridging your reins? It is a lot harder to hold them when sitting, try banging your stirrups up a good few holes, bridging your reins on his neck, but your lower leg fowards, bottom back, and get out of the saddle, using your body weight. Bridiging the reins on his neck , keeping your hands still and low means that he will be pulling against himself.
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Yes I have tried doing that, on several times that has been the only way I have been able to pull him up!
 
Hi all

thanks for all the suggestions. I have stopped riding the horse in question because the last time I took him out he had a full on tantrum in the middle of a road when he was asked to wait and not turn straight into the middle of the road we were turning into. He flung his whole body out and there was an on coming car and I've decided I am not prepared to put myself in such a dangerous situation and I don't want the blame if this horse comes back having maimed himself. When I told her about this her only response was "oh he does that all the time at that junction":eek: !!! I think half the problem with him is she is far too soft on him and doesn't put the hours in in the school.

In relation to his foot condition, I forget what it is called, but basically his front hooves are slightly deformed and wear unevenly means they grow faster on one side than the other, that is all I can remember, I know he definitely doesn't have any of these: navicular, sidebone, ring bone or laminitis.

He doesn't keep weight on well. He's very slender as it is and still eats twice as much as mine! He has nothing sugary or heating in his diet.

When he is ridden (it isn't just me in this respect), you are quite right he carries his head very very high and hollows his back. This is why he feels ghastly to trot, he does it in all his paces. I have tried encouraging him to bring his head down. I have tried gently sponging on the reigns alternately to ask him to carry his head properly (this is how I ask my mare to do it) but he resists any small signals down to his mouth by tensing or head shaking.I want to make clear here I don't mean sawing at his mouth, I mean squeezing the reign alternately with my ring finger, its subtle but he should be able to feel it because my mare does and instantly drops her head back to where she's supposed to have it. I have tried the exact opposite too, in a place where he doesn't normally canter I have tried literally just holding the reigns at the buckle; it makes no difference he still will head shake, yank on the bit and jog and he doesn't relax.

I doubt putting a stronger bit on would really help tbh, it just makes him fight more against you and he works out how to evade whatever bit you put in his mouth. I have tried making a fuss of him when he slows down nicely in trot when he asked, but its like he has forgotten absolutely everythign when he is somewhere he wants to gallop!
 
starbar said:
Don't ride it. He sounds like an accident waiting to happen and very very tense. You have a lovely little mare of your own, why risk everything??
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I don't ride my mare as often as I would like to because she is 14 and has developed high ringbone on the sides of her pasterns. She's had it x-rayed and it doesn't affect the joint but even so, I'd like it to stay that way so I don't ride as much as I would like to. So it was kind of a mutually useful thing. My friend got her horse exercised I got to ride more, but the road incident has just completely put me off riding him, so I don't anymore!
 
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