vet charges unreasonable

[paddy555]

in the last couple of weeks I had 2 vet visits. Both planned not emergencies. Same distance to travel, one was a horse vet the 2nd a more general vet who did horses, pets, cows etc etc
Absolutely nothing different about the visits, both on week days around mid day. Both vets from the same practice.

The horse visit was £45.2 plus the cost of the treatment

The "pet' visit was £86. Whilst the vet was there he also dealt with 5 horse vacs and 1 horse prescription check. However there was also a "pet" involved.

how can vets discriminate in this way between equine and "pets" Almost double for a visit charge is crazy. This just seems to be a deliberate vet policy (not just mine) to charge up fees for "pets"

 

[meleeka]

I noticed the difference between livestock vets and equine vets. The livestock vet was considerably cheaper, despite both practices being owned by the same parent company. Now I've thought about it, my small animal vet is also considerably more expensive than the equine vet for a consultation (same practice). I guess it's just market forces at play.

 

[rara007]

Because in practice you see 4-6 ‘pets’ per hour, a home visit is very inefficient and the pricing system probably can’t discriminate between a small animal visit whilst at a yard and a normal small animal visit.
Equine work is almost always mobile.
Farm animal vets have smaller overheads, often they don’t even have an X-ray machine of any type for example.

 

[Tarragon]

Well, my husband had to take our two cats to the local vet for their annual checkup and jabs, and was charged about the same as my equine vet who came to the yard and did two dental checks under sedation and annual jabs. The pet one involved a 20 minute consultation on their premises and the equine one involved a call out of about 20 miles and about an hour and a half of their time.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

If there was only one brief pet vaccination included in the 2nd visit, I would contact the practice manager and ask them to justify the extra charge.

 

[Exasperated]

I noticed the difference between livestock vets and equine vets. The livestock vet was considerably cheaper, despite both practices being owned by the same parent company. Now I've thought about it, my small animal vet is also considerably more expensive than the equine vet for a consultation (same practice). I guess it's just market forces at play.

Of course it is!
Livestock farmers simply could not justify calling vets at pet call out prices, against the value of their animal - never mind all the withdrawal periods, paperwork, declarations and prohibitions which accompany any form of livestock treatment. You’d have to weigh the poor creature in untreated, or call the Hunt.
Pets are typically viewed as family members, as children -just watch Noel FitzPatrick’s programme - with owners expected to pay whatever it takes (ie whatever the market will stand). Pets are also easier to transport to clinic, so call outs less common.
If the horse is owned by the farmer, using same vet /same practice, likely find call out fee to premises is same, but bill will need splitting from the farm account as horses in UK are not usually classed as agricultural animals.

 

[SpeedyPony]

Iirc the last time I had the cat added on to an equine visit I was only charged for his vaccination- I was just charged the equine callout fee for the visit.
I can understand the extra charge for a purely small animal callout, as mentioned above it's more efficient to see them in the surgery, but if the vet is coming to the yard anyway, looking at a small animal while there (assuming something minor like jabs) isn't really costing them any extra time than seeing them in the practice.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I can see the logic re pet visits in a clinic but I wouldn’t be impressed.

There were five horses vaccinated on a single yard, in one visit, and one pet.

The first vet might not be wrong but @SpeedyPony ’s vet handled it in a way that would make me think ‘what great service.’

 

[paddy555]

Because in practice you see 4-6 ‘pets’ per hour, a home visit is very inefficient and the pricing system probably can’t discriminate between a small animal visit whilst at a yard and a normal small animal visit.
Equine work is almost always mobile.
Farm animal vets have smaller overheads, often they don’t even have an X-ray machine of any type for example.

the horse visit was head horse vet who came along with his digital x ray machine. The horse part of this practice has specialised equipment, they are not farm vets. (they have a farm vet section) Their horse call out charges and treatments etc are reasonable and I have no problem with them. It's the pets aspect.

Well, my husband had to take our two cats to the local vet for their annual checkup and jabs, and was charged about the same as my equine vet who came to the yard and did two dental checks under sedation and annual jabs. The pet one involved a 20 minute consultation on their premises and the equine one involved a call out of about 20 miles and about an hour and a half of their time.

that is more or less the principle I am asking about.

Perhaps I am going to have to word the request differently ie can I have a vet out to vaccinate my horse, prescription check another and then ask them whilst they are there can they check a "pet"
it will be interesting to see if there is a difference in charging.

I can see the logic re pet visits in a clinic but I wouldn’t be impressed.

There were five horses vaccinated on a single yard, in one visit, and one pet.

The first vet might not be wrong but @SpeedyPony ’s vet handled it in a way that would make me think ‘what great service.’

I wasn't impressed. The tetanus vacs were £40 each and it took less than 10 mins to do all five as I simply led them like a production line up to the vet's vehicle. It took longer to load the syringes than vaccinate the horses. The prescription check on the pony was £22 and took around half a minute. (she cannot be handled easily by a vet so that was the normal method we use, no problem with lack of exam)

This seems to happen time and time again the large differences between pet and horse treatment. I don't know if it is the case that vets expect pets to be insured so they charge whatever the insurance will pay and the insurance premiums are so high as they know vets will charge to the max. So heaven help the pet owners who are not insured. They just get charged the same.

It really stood out to me this time as both pet and horse charges are on the same page of the bill.
Strangely I feel I could have more horses as the vet charges are reasonably acceptable. I don't feel I could have another cat, dog etc as I'm not sure I could afford to pay the vets for just relatively normal things. (not serious operations)

 

[pistolpete]

Blatant profiteering?

 

[Suncat]

Its no coincidence that the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) have launched a market investigation into the veterinary sector this year. I believe that this is aimed at pets/small animal, not equine and livestock.

CMA presses ahead with full investigation into vets market

The CMA has today confirmed its decision to launch a market investigation into the veterinary sector and published tips to help pet owners struggling with vet costs now.

www.gov.uk

Google summarised it like this (I read around it recently so correct/factual to the best of my knowledge):

• Market share
  The six largest corporate veterinary groups in the UK (CVS, IVC, Linnaeus, Medivet, Pets at Home, and VetPartners) account for around 60% of the market. This is up from 10% a decade ago.
  
  
• Concerns
  The CMA has concerns that large corporate groups may:
  • Reduce choice for consumers
    
    
  • Steer consumers towards higher cost treatments
    
    
  • Keep referrals, diagnostics, out-of-hours, and cremation services within the group
    
• Investigation
  The CMA's investigation will look at a range of factors, including:
  • How consumers are informed about their options
    
    
  • Whether consumers are overpaying for services or medicines
    
    
  • The role of pet insurance in the supply of veterinary services
    
• Timeline
  The CMA's investigation is due to be completed by November 22, 2025, with a possible six-month extension. The CMA plans to publish its provisional decision in February or March 2025.

 

[Sandstone1]

My small animal vet recently reduced its out of hours fee from £300 to £175. Now what justification can there be to charge £300 just to see a vet. This is the fee before you even see the vet. Its a 24 hour hospital so a vet is there all the time. If its a genuine fee how can they afford to reduce it so much?

 

[Polos Mum]

I've filled in the CMA questionnaire on vet charges - so very interested to see the outcome.

We had the opposite experience

Vet call out fee for the same vet to the same yard at same time of day - both planned. One to a pig and one to a horse only about a month apart.
The call out fee for horse was 3 x pig.

I appreciate everyone saying "farmers would never pay horse rates" but I don't think all horse people are rolling around in cash and just because we will pay it - is that a reason to charge it???

Surely some sort of thinking around what it costs should be factored it.

Maybe 'market' makes horses more expensive but 3 x was totally taking the piss IMHO

 

[Exasperated]

Its no coincidence that the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) have launched a market investigation into the veterinary sector this year. I believe that this is aimed at pets/small animal, not equine and livestock.

CMA presses ahead with full investigation into vets market

The CMA has today confirmed its decision to launch a market investigation into the veterinary sector and published tips to help pet owners struggling with vet costs now.

www.gov.uk

Google summarised it like this (I read around it recently so correct/factual to the best of my knowledge):

• Market share
  The six largest corporate veterinary groups in the UK (CVS, IVC, Linnaeus, Medivet, Pets at Home, and VetPartners) account for around 60% of the market. This is up from 10% a decade ago.
  
  
• Concerns
  The CMA has concerns that large corporate groups may:
  • Reduce choice for consumers
    
    
  • Steer consumers towards higher cost treatments
    
    
  • Keep referrals, diagnostics, out-of-hours, and cremation services within the group
• Investigation
  The CMA's investigation will look at a range of factors, including:
  • How consumers are informed about their options
    
    
  • Whether consumers are overpaying for services or medicines
    
    
  • The role of pet insurance in the supply of veterinary services
• Timeline
  The CMA's investigation is due to be completed by November 22, 2025, with a possible six-month extension. The CMA plans to publish its provisional decision in February or March 2025.

Yeah, market share and corporate pricing are a huge problem.
Less justifiable or likely in smaller, private practices where vets - often the identical people - will cover mixed: same vets treat your pets, equines and farmstock.
Even when some partners really specialise, out of hours calls are rota’d and it’s whoever’s on that night - unless that practice has bought into one of the ‘out of hours and emergency veterinary providers’ , which companies really do know how to charge!
And as for insurance.... it’s standard for equine and pet owners to be asked insurance status before discussing possible treatment. Then differently advised, accordingly.
In contrast, unless a farmer has paid megabucks for a prize stud, individualised farm animal insurance is non viable.
Then consider your exclusion clauses and limitations within insurance....an American CEO recently assassinated over the fury this causes with human health insurance, never mind creatures - ALL health and Medicare businesses are ultimately about optimising returns, thankfully some less greedy than others.

 

[paddy555]

I've filled in the CMA questionnaire on vet charges - so very interested to see the outcome.

We had the opposite experience

Vet call out fee for the same vet to the same yard at same time of day - both planned. One to a pig and one to a horse only about a month apart.
The call out fee for horse was 3 x pig.

I appreciate everyone saying "farmers would never pay horse rates" but I don't think all horse people are rolling around in cash and just because we will pay it - is that a reason to charge it???

Surely some sort of thinking around what it costs should be factored it.

Maybe 'market' makes horses more expensive but 3 x was totally taking the piss IMHO

well my "pet" call out was nearly twice the price of a horse so that really would have been expensive for you

ETA my vets are independents not corporate. They seem to have jumped onto the corporate bandwagon of charging.

Do corporates take equines?
my previous practice was mixed independent and then went corporate and got rid of all equines. Is that why equine charges are reasonable because they are not corporates and independents haven't had to keep up with corporates.
Anyone know?

 

[Exasperated]

I've filled in the CMA questionnaire on vet charges - so very interested to see the outcome.

We had the opposite experience

Vet call out fee for the same vet to the same yard at same time of day - both planned. One to a pig and one to a horse only about a month apart.
The call out fee for horse was 3 x pig.

I appreciate everyone saying "farmers would never pay horse rates" but I don't think all horse people are rolling around in cash and just because we will pay it - is that a reason to charge it???

Surely some sort of thinking around what it costs should be factored it.

Maybe 'market' makes horses more expensive but 3 x was totally taking the piss IMHO

Same account? Same person owning the pig as owned the horse? Same practice?
Have to separate the vet bill for agricultural animal, or farm accountant would have to later (unless horse genuinely works agriculturally).
(Treatment for a farm collie /farm cat needs a VAT no.for any specific invoice, but if vets had visited to see the collie at same time as seeing to livestock, it would be ONE call out fee to the premises, and if later discovered to be billed at some exorbitant ‘pet rate’ - I really wouldn’t like to be their receptionist.

 

[Gamebird]

This seems to happen time and time again the large differences between pet and horse treatment. I don't know if it is the case that vets expect pets to be insured so they charge whatever the insurance will pay and the insurance premiums are so high as they know vets will charge to the max. So heaven help the pet owners who are not insured. They just get charged the same.

This is absolutely not the case.

 

[Polos Mum]

Same account? Same person owning the pig as owned the horse? Same practice?

Yes, yes and yes

We don't have a farm account, no VAT registration and pig is firmly a pet !

Pig was in stable next to horse)

It's just the visit (from the same individual vet from the same practice to the same yard (perhaps 12 foot away between stable doors) was classed as a "livestock" visit on their system.

We were expecting the same 'horse' call out fee - because until that point it hadn't crossed my mind that the call out would differ based on what animal was being looked at when they got here.


Maybe I should experiment and get them out to see the dog - but I might be horrified perhaps if as @paddy555 suggests it would be 2x horse price ! At least the pig call out was a nice (cheaper) surprise.

 

[Gamebird]

I'm afraid I'm on the verge of turning my back on the veterinary profession. I have been running an equine practice for the last 13 years (and employed in one for many more than that) and I just cannot make the sums add up any more. Clients want everything at rock bottom prices. Neighbouring practices are trampling over each other to offer free visits and loss-leading vaccinations in a drive to the financial bottom. Meanwhile we are paying vets relative peanuts given the working hours, level of service required, responsibility and onerous out of hours work. And there aren't the vets out there to employ anyway (I wonder why...?) so everyone is doing far too much work. Prices have been artificially low for years, but we can't put them up or we lose business. We just cannot keep putting professionals in cars, have them driving around all day doing underpriced work, maintain our office premises and pay our admin and clinical staff what they deserve. It doesn't add up.

For what my opinion is worth, the equine vets above are charging a lot less than what the service actually costs to provide. The small animal vets are probably charging a lot more realistically, but as has been shown, people find that too much.

 

[TheMule]

I'm afraid I'm on the verge of turning my back on the veterinary profession. I have been running an equine practice for the last 13 years (and employed in one for many more than that) and I just cannot make the sums add up any more. Clients want everything at rock bottom prices. Neighbouring practices are trampling over each other to offer free visits and loss-leading vaccinations in a drive to the financial bottom. Meanwhile we are paying vets relative peanuts given the working hours, level of service required, responsibility and onerous out of hours work. And there aren't the vets out there to employ anyway (I wonder why...?) so everyone is doing far too much work. Prices have been artificially low for years, but we can't put them up or we lose business. We just cannot keep putting professionals in cars, have them driving around all day doing underpriced work, maintain our office premises and pay our admin and clinical staff what they deserve. It doesn't add up.

For what my opinion is worth, the equine vets above are charging a lot less than what the service actually costs to provide. The small animal vets are probably charging a lot more realistically, but as has been shown, people find that too much.

Absolutely this.
Get real people- vet practices are run as businesses therefore they have to make money. I can’t see the current model existing for much longer, I fear we are heading towards a situation where the only way to access veterinary services for our horses is by taking them into clinics, especially in more rural areas.
Small animal vets carry the highest costs, then equine, then farm. The difference in price is due to that, not due to some greedy vet trying to dupe you.

 

[JenJ]

But the questions being asked here are why are two call out fees for the same vet travelling to the same place, so very different, not a moan about prices in general.

 

[TheMule]

But the questions being asked here are why are two call out fees for the same vet travel to the same place so very different, not a moan about prices in general.

Because there are set fees for each service. The pet service is a higher cost than the equine.

 

[SpeedyPony]

Because there are set fees for each service. The pet service is a higher cost than the equine.

They don't generally charge separate callouts for multiple horses though. To my mind, the callout fee is to cover the cost of the vet coming to your yard/home, the examination fee is for the individual animal. I could understand if the pet exam fee was higher to cover the extra overheads of small animal practice, but as the vet was already there they haven't had the loss of time they would if they'd made a special trip just for the pet.
I appreciate that vets need to be paid properly for their time, but the way I read the original post was that they'd charged 2x callouts for the same visit- which is a bit cheeky IMO.

 

[Gamebird]

But the questions being asked here are why are two call out fees for the same vet travelling to the same place, so very different, not a moan about prices in general.

Because, as I explained in my post, equine vets undercharge massively for visits due to a combination of strong inter-practice competition, and because clients literally won't pay any more. Pet vets very rarely do call-outs, and these are not particularly subject to competition, so they are priced more realistically with regards to the cost to the practice.

 

[Gamebird]

They don't generally charge separate callouts for multiple horses though. To my mind, the callout fee is to cover the cost of the vet coming to your yard/home, the examination fee is for the individual animal. I could understand if the pet exam fee was higher to cover the extra overheads of small animal practice, but as the vet was already there they haven't had the loss of time they would if they'd made a special trip just for the pet.
I appreciate that vets need to be paid properly for their time, but the way I read the original post was that they'd charged 2x callouts for the same visit- which is a bit cheeky IMO.

The post says two separate visits to the same premises on separate days, but charged differently.

 

[SpeedyPony]

The post says two separate visits to the same premises on separate days, but charged differently.

Ah, having re-read it it sounds as though the pet callout only was charged on the 2nd visit, but horses were seen as well at that one. Still feels a little harsh- as they wouldn't pay any callout for bringing the pet into the surgery, just the examination fee?
FWIW I do think that vets are underpaid for what they do, but given how many corporates are coining it in I'm not sure how much owners are underpaying- it sounds like the current pricing would be workable if all the proceeds went into wages/running costs rather than hedge funds?

 

[Gamebird]

Ah, having re-read it it sounds as though the pet callout only was charged on the 2nd visit, but horses were seen as well at that one. Still feels a little harsh- as they wouldn't pay any callout for bringing the pet into the surgery, just the examination fee?
FWIW I do think that vets are underpaid for what they do, but given how many corporates are coining it in I'm not sure how much owners are underpaying- it sounds like the current pricing would be workable if all the proceeds went into wages/running costs rather than hedge funds?

I have run practices under both independent and corporate management. Both charged a similar set of fees to the client. It was equally difficult to make sums add up either way! You'd think that independent practices would have a larger percentage go directly to them than corporate, but independent practices usually pay more for wholesale drugs, consumables and lab services (no economies of scale) and have to pay for their own IT, HR and H&S etc. out of their income from client bills, whereas corporates provide these services for their practices. So the end result isn't as different as you'd iimagine.

 

[SpeedyPony]

I have run practices under both independent and corporate management. Both charged a similar set of fees to the client. It was equally difficult to make sums add up either way! You'd think that independent practices would have a larger percentage go directly to them than corporate, but independent practices usually pay more for wholesale drugs, consumables and lab services (no economies of scale) and have to pay for their own IT, HR and H&S etc. out of their income from client bills, whereas corporates provide these services for their practices. So the end result isn't as different as you'd iimagine.

Economies of scale I suppose- sounds like the perfect case for forming co-operatives, but they're sadly not very popular in this country. (ETA in any industry, that's not a dig at vets!)