Vet findings: is this likely to be navicular?

[Marigold4]

I have a 14 year old broodmare (WB) who is not ridden (injury as a yearling). She has always been barefoot and her feet are in good condition and regularly trimmed by an EPA. She has become progressively lame in front. Vet came this week and she found that she was lame in both fronts on the lunge on a small circle. When she used hoof testers, the mare was sore on her toe but not on her heel. We x-rayed the feet and she found thin soles and bony changes in the navicular bone. I don't know much about navicular but think that sore in the toe but not in the heel is not consistent with navicular and that horses can show bony changes in the navicular and yet not be symptomic/lame, so maybe the bony changes in the navicular are a red herring? I would welcome any thoughts from those who are knowledgeable on hoofs and/or navicular. TIA

 

[ihatework]

Horses can show all sorts of things on X-ray that may or may not have clinical significance.

Footy toe pain id have LGL in the back of my mind and might be inclined to do an acth

 

[Gloi]

Lame at this time of year without obvious cause I would test for Cushings.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Alot of navicular problems stem in the heel but if she has changes in the bone it could affect the whole foot, they often get soft tissue damage and bruising to the bursa with it so then the whole foot can be sore.

When Louis went lame with it he was very lame in 1 front and slightly in the other but got sounder on the worse quite quickly, he had osphos and steroid in the bursa and 3 months field rest and was fine and been fine since, I did take his shoes off and his never been shod since.

Thin soles can make them really lame when Arabi had them he looked like he had laminitis we did a cushings test at the time because he was older and to rule that out but it was negative.

If I were you I would get her off the grass and treat her like a laminitis case get a cushings test, that's what I did with Arabi and literally 3 days in and he was sound so we were quite sure it wasn't laminitis so xrayed him then.

 

[Marigold4]

She had a blood test in June where all her results were in the normal range and she has been slightly lame for months, but worse now. Would Cushings show up on that blood test? I only did the blood test because my yearling was unwell and had raised liver enzymes so did her bloods as a "control" to see if it was affected all of them.

 

[Zoeypxo]

you would need to have a ACTH blood test rather than a general health blood run. My first thought was laminitis, any pulses or heat?

 

[Marigold4]

OK, thanks. I'll talk to the vet about a ACTH test. Vet found no pulses, no heat and xrays don't show any pedal bone rotation.

 

[Equi]

Can you post a photo from the ground of her front hooves side on?

 

[billyburgers]

Out of interest how quickly would you expect lameness to resolve if sugar related and diet adjusted accordingly quickly? Horse came in lame Saturday, poulticed for 3 days as thinking possible abscess, nothing has come out :-( he’s already on soaked hay, we reduced the amount of hay fed and replaced the reduction with oat straw on the same day, he’s now almost sound today, cant work out if sugar related or maybe a bruise which the poultice has helped with? Farrier can’t find any tender spots, thoughts please?

 

[JenJ]

Out of interest how quickly would you expect lameness to resolve if sugar related and diet adjusted accordingly quickly? Horse came in lame Saturday, poulticed for 3 days as thinking possible abscess, nothing has come out :-( he’s already on soaked hay, we reduced the amount of hay fed and replaced the reduction with oat straw on the same day, he’s now almost sound today, cant work out if sugar related or maybe a bruise which the poultice has helped with? Farrier can’t find any tender spots, thoughts please?

You'll probably get more responses if you start a new thread for advice on this, rather than tag onto Marigold's one.

My answer to your question would be, "don't know"! I'm sorry to be so unhelpful though!

Is there anything in particular that makes you think it may be sugar related? Does he have EMS? Has he had lami before? Sometimes if you catch a lami flare early enough and take immediate action then they can come sound quickly, but sometimes it can still be a month or so of box rest before they feel comfortable enough on their feet to move easily.

If they have EMS and/or are prone to lami, I would treat it as if it was sugar related and continue with the reduced hay and adding oat straw. Does he need to lose weight?

I have two with EMS and it's a constant struggle to find the right balance, so if that's your situation too, you have my sympathy.

 

[Pinkvboots]

OK, thanks. I'll talk to the vet about a ACTH test. Vet found no pulses, no heat and xrays don't show any pedal bone rotation.

The test can unreliable Louis had a weird coat so I suspected cushings but 2 tests were negative then the third was borderline because of his coat vet wanted him on half a tablet he doesn't really have any other symptoms and his not had laminitis.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Out of interest how quickly would you expect lameness to resolve if sugar related and diet adjusted accordingly quickly? Horse came in lame Saturday, poulticed for 3 days as thinking possible abscess, nothing has come out :-( he’s already on soaked hay, we reduced the amount of hay fed and replaced the reduction with oat straw on the same day, he’s now almost sound today, cant work out if sugar related or maybe a bruise which the poultice has helped with? Farrier can’t find any tender spots, thoughts please?

It depends really if caught early they can become sound quickly it varies, if your unsure I would leave in until completely sound then reintroduce turnout gradually.

Is your horse over weight or got fat pads?

 

[billyburgers]

It depends really if caught early they can become sound quickly it varies, if your unsure I would leave in until completely sound then reintroduce turnout gradually.

Is your horse over weight or got fat pads?

Thanks Pinkvboots thats very interesting and good advice he’s a very good doer, a bit of a belly, no fat pads, tested negative for cushings March this year. With no abcess to show and the amount of grass about at the mo am wondering if it’s sugar related as it’s “resolved” quite quickly. As he’s getting older its more challenging to manage weight when he can’t be worked

 

[billyburgers]

You'll probably get more responses if you start a new thread for advice on this, rather than tag onto Marigold's one.

My answer to your question would be, "don't know"! I'm sorry to be so unhelpful though!

Is there anything in particular that makes you think it may be sugar related? Does he have EMS? Has he had lami before? Sometimes if you catch a lami flare early enough and take immediate action then they can come sound quickly, but sometimes it can still be a month or so of box rest before they feel comfortable enough on their feet to move easily.

If they have EMS and/or are prone to lami, I would treat it as if it was sugar related and continue with the reduced hay and adding oat straw. Does he need to lose weight?

I have two with EMS and it's a constant struggle to find the right balance, so if that's your situation too, you have my sympathy.

Thanks JenJ not unhelpful at all he’s not had lami but is a very good doer. We manage his weight well, mainly through muzzled turnout and lots of work but it’s more challenging as he’s getting older, he’s 19. Plus the current climate doesn’t help our grass is still very green at the mo and I can’t under rug to maintain weight as it’s too warm He had a negative cushings test earlier this year and reasonable insulin results but the vet indicated with his age and type, Welsh d, that he’s a prime candidate for either hence question around sugar levels and lameness. I’ll carry on with the oat straw as he seems to likes it and reducing his sugar intake won’t be a bad thing, thanks again

Marigold4 - sorry for hijacking your thread, hope you get to the bottom of your mares lameness

 

[Marigold4]

Can you post a photo from the ground of her front hooves side on?

I could PM xrays if anyone wants to have a look?

 

[JenJ]

Thanks JenJ not unhelpful at all he’s not had lami but is a very good doer. We manage his weight well, mainly through muzzled turnout and lots of work but it’s more challenging as he’s getting older, he’s 19. Plus the current climate doesn’t help our grass is still very green at the mo and I can’t under rug to maintain weight as it’s too warm He had a negative cushings test earlier this year and reasonable insulin results but the vet indicated with his age and type, Welsh d, that he’s a prime candidate for either hence question around sugar levels and lameness. I’ll carry on with the oat straw as he seems to likes it and reducing his sugar intake won’t be a bad thing, thanks again

Marigold4 - sorry for hijacking your thread, hope you get to the bottom of your mares lameness

It certainly sounds like you're very aware of his management needs and doing everything right!

 

[Pinkvboots]

Thanks Pinkvboots thats very interesting and good advice he’s a very good doer, a bit of a belly, no fat pads, tested negative for cushings March this year. With no abcess to show and the amount of grass about at the mo am wondering if it’s sugar related as it’s “resolved” quite quickly. As he’s getting older its more challenging to manage weight when he can’t be worked

My Louis has gone a bit footy twice but he does have cushings and this was before he was on prascend, his barefoot so you see any soreness straight away and I literally kept him in for 5 days and within 3 he looked sound.

Has he got rings on his hooves that widen at the sides it can be an indication of the grass influx and how it affects the hooves?

 

[Pinkvboots]

Thanks Pinkvboots thats very interesting and good advice he’s a very good doer, a bit of a belly, no fat pads, tested negative for cushings March this year. With no abcess to show and the amount of grass about at the mo am wondering if it’s sugar related as it’s “resolved” quite quickly. As he’s getting older its more challenging to manage weight when he can’t be worked

The tests are not always accurate I had 2 negative and the third was borderline and because of his weird coat vet wanted him on half a tablet.

 

[PoppyAnderson]

I could PM xrays if anyone wants to have a look?

I'd be much less interested in xrays and much more interested in how the horse is landing. This can tell you an awful lot about the health of a foot. Camera on the floor (literally on the floor) and walk the horse past the camera several times. Then examine the footage in slo mo to see how they're landing. You want heel first. If it's not heel first, then something isn't quite right. Could be pre-lami, wrong diet, over-aggressive trimming, thrush etc.

 

[billyburgers]

My Louis has gone a bit footy twice but he does have cushings and this was before he was on prascend, his barefoot so you see any soreness straight away and I literally kept him in for 5 days and within 3 he looked sound.

Has he got rings on his hooves that widen at the sides it can be an indication of the grass influx and how it affects the hooves?

Am going to treat going forwards as sugar related, it won’t do any harm given his age and type!
He does has some hoof rings, not curved down to the heel as in lami but noticeable, can’t believe I’m restricting grazing in November, the climate has gone mad

 

[billyburgers]

The tests are not always accurate I had 2 negative and the third was borderline and because of his weird coat vet wanted him on half a tablet.

That’s definitely worth bearing in mind, thanks for all your advice