vets that can't inject properly

[Sandstone1]

I've a pony who is a little tricky to handle due to past abuse and poor handling.
He has to be sedated to have teeth done.
Have had two different vets sedate him with no problem as I always warn them they only get one chance at it and they have both done it quickly and efficiently. Finding the vein first time and injecting the sedative, all went fine.
Third vet came out and completely missed vein and due to this pony got wound up and then had to be injected im instead of iv
Sedative then didn't work so had to be injected yet again.
Result a very wound up pony a big vets Bill and a wasted morning as had to wait around for sedative to take effect.
Would you be annoyed baring in mind 2 other vets have had no problem?

 

[be positive]

Knowing how difficult it can be for a competent vet to get the vein first time with a cooperative horse I don't think you have reason to complain or be really annoyed, the fact that 2 previous vets had no problem does not mean much as the vein may have been less easy to find today.
I know of a similar situation when the vet was just doing a routine im vaccine, having been told to go in, not fuss about just jab and get the job done, she ignored the advice fussed over the horse and then missed, breaking the needle in the process, horse unsurprisingly got upset so she then announced that it would require sedating to inject, how she thought she could sedate is beyond me when she could not even manage to hit the muscle mass, the senior vet had to go out to do it, I think there was no charge for either visit.

 

[Sandstone1]

Thing is though, I did tell her if she missed 1st time that would be it. Think she would have been better to do im in first place. Instead he had one iv messed up then had to have 2 further im and hang around all morning because he was now wound up and took age for sedative to work.
This meant a bill twice as much as it should be a very upset pony.

 

[Nudibranch]

It's unfortunate but it isn't always straightforward to hit a vein, and that includes in humans.

The senior vet at the practice I used to use injected my old pony in order to pts after the cannula had slipped out of the vein. Result was pony took an hour and a half to die while he had to drive back to the surgery to fetch his gun. Obviously it was an accident, but there are no guarantees. Unfortunate for your needle phobic horse, of course, but I don't think you would gain anything by complaining to be honest.

Is there any use in trying an oral sedative beforehand? Domosedan comes in oral form, it's pretty effective.

 

[Sandstone1]

Think next time I will try something like that. I do realise that it can happen and finding the vein is not always easy. However it does seem that this particular vet has problems as have had issues with another horse.
It's just annoying as other vets have had no problem.

 

[Celtic Fringe]

We have the same problem with my old horse. If he needs sedation for any reason then I usually request a specific vet who has had plenty of practice in dealing with him over the years and will get the needle in quickly and efficiently. One vet was very nervous of my horse and was trying to remove a couple of sutures once. The horse twitched a little and the vet jumped. The scalpel he was using to cut the sutures slipped. Cue one vet who needed to be sent to A&E for about ten stitches to his hand. We then had to phone the surgery to request another vet because the first one was broken ...........

 

[Sandstone1]

I understand its not easy, but it is annoying to get a big bill and a upset pony because the vet messes up.
I did warn her she needed to get the needle in quick and as two different vets have previously had no problem I don't think it's the ponys fault.
Think I need to avoid that vet in future.

 

[SusieT]

RE: person who's horse twitched - it may well be someone else had a horse who 'twitched' earlier in the day and it then tried to kick them so of couse they jumped..
selina - Do you do any training with your pony to solve this issue?

 

[Golden_Match_II]

To be honest I think it's a bit dramatic to be that annoyed - animals are animals and they are unpredictable (and by the sounds of it, yours might also be dangerous for vets!) so it is perfectly reasonable for a vet to make a mistake in a difficult situation. If I were you I'd just put it down to a mistake and a tricky patient and move on. If you want to prevent it from happening again request vets who have done a good job in the past to sedate him, and do lots of training and groundwork with your pony, rather than badmouthing and whining about this vet on an online forum.

 

[Sandstone1]

Yes,I do and if the vet is competent he's fine. He just does not appreciate being repeatedly stabbed.
As said before he's been fine with other vets.
He is a rescue pony and has come on a lot. It's very annoying when vets don't listen to advise from the owner.
If vet was not confident in finding the vein first time I would rather she did it Im in first place. As it was by the time she had finished stabbing he was so wound up sedative didn't work and it took more injections and more waiting time.

 

[Sandstone1]

To be honest I think it's a bit dramatic to be that annoyed - animals are animals and they are unpredictable (and by the sounds of it, yours might also be dangerous for vets!) so it is perfectly reasonable for a vet to make a mistake in a difficult situation. If I were you I'd just put it down to a mistake and a tricky patient and move on. If you want to prevent it from happening again request vets who have done a good job in the past to sedate him, and do lots of training and groundwork with your pony, rather than badmouthing and whining about this vet on an online forum.

Fully aware animals are animals, however as said before he's a rescue and although he's come on loads he does not appreciate repeat stabbings.
I'm allowed to ask questions on a open forum and I'm not bad mouthing as I've not named names.
It would be nice if vets took a little more notice of what owners tell them and take advise.
Eta, He's done loads of ground work and is much better to handle now than he was. This incompetent vet however has likely put his training back a good bit by messing him around.

 

[Nudibranch]

Sorry but I disagree that the vet is incompetent and that the pony had repeated "stabbings": I think that's unfair on the vet and does a disservice to the pony as well. Groundwork is not the same thing as preparing them for injections. Richard Maxwell's book has some useful information about how to specifically desensitise a horse to injections. Quite honestly the pony's background has nothing to do with any of this. Lots of people make excuses for their animal's behaviour because they were "abused" in the past. Unless the abuse involved someone injecting him repeatedly for pure cruelty it won't have any bearing on his reaction. Many horses end up needle phobic, but it is up to the owner to prepare the horse and handle it so the vet is safe. As mentioned, I would imagine an oral sedative would be a useful starting point next time rather than blaming the vet.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Just ask for a different vet, no need to explain.
IV is tricky, and I would shoot a horse never jab.
In my opinion a vet who knows he putting a horse down should carry a gun on the day and ask which you want to use.
I would not want a vet do do it anyway.

 

[Nudibranch]

J

IV is tricky, and I would shoot a horse never jab.

I would not want a vet do do it anyway.

Slightly off OP's topic, but I agree and have never out of choice had a horse put down by injection. However in an emergency callout there is not always an option. Vets aren't allowed to carry a gun round in the car "just in case" and in my case he persuaded me very convincingly that her frail state would ensure a swift passing by injection. Sadly he was wrong - but these things happen. I had even told the receptionist I thought she might need to be pts and that I specifically wanted her shot if so, but either the message was not passed on or the vet thought he knew better.

Anyway I no longer use that practice, but it's not quite the same as the OP's situation.

 

[Sandstone1]

Of course the ponys past has a impact on his behaviour.

He just will not tolarate being messed with. Yes I know Iv is tricky which is why the vet should have done im if in doubt.
He's done ground work, also had handling practice with syringes.
As usual people are making assumptions and reading between the lines.
This vet was warned how he is, he's been sedated before with no problems which tells me it's the vet not the pony.
Now he has been set back by this vet.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Slightly off OP's topic, but I agree and have never out of choice had a horse put down by injection. However in an emergency callout there is not always an option. Vets aren't allowed to carry a gun round in the car "just in case" and in my case he persuaded me very convincingly that her frail state would ensure a swift passing by injection. Sadly he was wrong - but these things happen. I had even told the receptionist I thought she might need to be pts and that I specifically wanted her shot if so, but either the message was not passed on or the vet thought he knew better.

Anyway I no longer use that practice, but it's not quite the same as the OP's situation.

Your message should have been passed on, it was obviously a tricky situation and the vet should be prepared. If the message was not passed on , receptionist should be sacked and if message ignored, the vet needs to be sacked.
I suspect there was a cover up or vet ignored your original message. I don't think there was any need to inject if you consider a gun to be better.

 

[Grey_Arab]

A complaint is a little strong IMO, these things do happen. Could you not give an oral sedative before the vet arrives, a more relaxed pony, a more relaxed you and vet and probably an easier to find and inject vein...?

 

[Murphy88]

OP - unless you do everything in your life perfectly every time, I don't think you have any right to complain. We all have off days; no vet ever plans to take more than one shot to hit a vein, and honestly I suspect your warning of 'only one chance' may have caused that bit of stress that meant they didn't hit the vein first time, there's nothing like an owner putting on a bit of pressure. I work in a big clinic and do huge numbers of IVs in everything from newborn foals to stallions worth millions of dollars, and everyone I know who works here has 'bad vein days', it doesn't make us bad vets, it just makes us human. Interestingly, a friend commented just the other day how much better the horses over here in kentucky are compared to back home because being bad for needles just isn't acceptable; even the weanlings and yearlings are better for injections than most pet horses that I treated back in the UK.

 

[[69117]]

To be honest I think it's a bit dramatic to be that annoyed - animals are animals and they are unpredictable (and by the sounds of it, yours might also be dangerous for vets!) so it is perfectly reasonable for a vet to make a mistake in a difficult situation. If I were you I'd just put it down to a mistake and a tricky patient and move on. If you want to prevent it from happening again request vets who have done a good job in the past to sedate him, and do lots of training and groundwork with your pony, rather than badmouthing and whining about this vet on an online forum.

Sorry but I disagree that the vet is incompetent and that the pony had repeated "stabbings": I think that's unfair on the vet and does a disservice to the pony as well. Groundwork is not the same thing as preparing them for injections. Richard Maxwell's book has some useful information about how to specifically desensitise a horse to injections. Quite honestly the pony's background has nothing to do with any of this. Lots of people make excuses for their animal's behaviour because they were "abused" in the past. Unless the abuse involved someone injecting him repeatedly for pure cruelty it won't have any bearing on his reaction. Many horses end up needle phobic, but it is up to the owner to prepare the horse and handle it so the vet is safe. As mentioned, I would imagine an oral sedative would be a useful starting point next time rather than blaming the vet.

This. Absolutely a thousand times this.

I used to inject IV and IM daily. One particular horse I remember had to have an IV injection daily for the six months he was with me.

This horse was very well behaved luckily, but there were some days when I just couldn't for the life of me find a vein. I'm not a vet, but I am experienced when it comes to injecting and rehab work, and would consider myself competent. But sometimes, it just doesn't go to plan.

Much the same way that most days I can get on my horse and ride a good line into a fence, but some days I just cannot for the life of me see a stride.

That's life, not incompetence.

 

[Wishful]

Vets can have bad vein days, as can horses - I have had to have a few blood tests recently and although normally my right arm is least bad for finding a vein the last time the right one was impossible.

IM sedation is less effective and less reliable - plus far more expensive as the doses are higher for the same effect. Think it is also less predictable.

Needle/vet desensitisation would be pretty crucial for welfare in my opinion - you never know when you might need an emergency injection and if the horse is really awkward that can cause a delay in much needed treatment.

 

[sarahandwilby]

. Yes I know Iv is tricky which is why the vet should have done im if in doubt.

The sedative they may have been using may only have been licensed for use IV, rather than IM. Certain drugs given IM will take longer to take effect, and might not be as reliable - and considering any accidents that happen as the result of a sedated horse (e.g. if it kicked the owner who was trying to clip it, or a farrier etc.) are technically the vet's responsibility, then I can understand that they would want to go IV rather than going off license.

Whilst I can understand your point in that two other vets have managed to jab him successfully, perhaps this has just primed him to fear a vet/expect a needle. Also, telling your vet 'you'll only get one shot, else you'll not get near him' will make them more nervous and more likely to make a mess of it - and cocking up an IV could be catastrophe (personally I'd rather they miss completely than hit an artery!) In future I'd just request one of the vets you're happy with if I were you. No point stressing yourself out, your pony and the vet

 

[MurphysMinder]

My daughters pony is very needle phobic. She is 27 years old and still panics if she thinks she is going to have an injection, my daughter is a vet and as soon as she approaches the pony (who she has owned for 15 years) with a needle in her hand she starts stressing , so its not a case of being scared of the vet per se. I think your reaction is somewhat over the top and harsh OP. I give blood, some sessions I hardly feel the needle, and there is no bruising, others it can take what seems like ages, is painful and my arm is multi coloured afterwards. I just put it down to one of those things.

 

[Sandstone1]

To be honest it's more that the vet didn't listen to me that's annoying.
I would much rather have had a Im jab if the vet had any doubts.
Poor pony had three lots of sedative in the end and still was not properly sedated.

 

[OwnedbyJoe]

I've a pony who is a little tricky to handle due to past abuse and poor handling.
He has to be sedated to have teeth done.
Have had two different vets sedate him with no problem as I always warn them they only get one chance at it and they have both done it quickly and efficiently. Finding the vein first time and injecting the sedative, all went fine.
Third vet came out and completely missed vein and due to this pony got wound up and then had to be injected im instead of iv
Sedative then didn't work so had to be injected yet again.
Result a very wound up pony a big vets Bill and a wasted morning as had to wait around for sedative to take effect.
Would you be annoyed baring in mind 2 other vets have had no problem?

You asked if others would be annoyed.. The majority of people have replied saying no... But you keep replying giving more and more reasons why you ARE annoyed.
Leaves me wondering why you posted at all TBH.

 

[TwyfordM]

My mare is an absolute nightmare to inject no matter who does it. There's no way to get a needle anywhere near her without twitching her first and she absolutely hates the twitch too. We have full on rearing/smashing us into walls/kicking tantrums just to get the twitch on. She's 12hh!

One vet (out of about 6) got the vein straight away, the others all took two or three attempts. Perfectly understandable after my mares performance i think!
There's no pretty or easy way to inject a horse like that, the vets that have had to deal with her have my full respect as they don't have to go in and wrestle her, they could easily refuse!
Life would be alot easier if they got it in first time, but nobodies perfect!

 

[MurphysMinder]

My mare is an absolute nightmare to inject no matter who does it. There's no way to get a needle anywhere near her without twitching her first and she absolutely hates the twitch too. We have full on rearing/smashing us into walls/kicking tantrums just to get the twitch on. She's 12hh!

One vet (out of about 6) got the vein straight away, the others all took two or three attempts. Perfectly understandable after my mares performance i think!
There's no pretty or easy way to inject a horse like that, the vets that have had to deal with her have my full respect as they don't have to go in and wrestle her, they could easily refuse!
Life would be alot easier if they got it in first time, but nobodies perfect!

I think you must have our mares twin (although ours is 13 hh)!

 

[eggs]

OP it sounds as though you are annoyed and nothing is going to change your view. As others have said, ask for some Domosedan gel if you are worried about your pony's reaction next time then you can do without the injection altogether.

 

[fburton]

Groundwork is not the same thing as preparing them for injections. Richard Maxwell's book has some useful information about how to specifically desensitise a horse to injections.

And here's an article written by vet and horse behaviour expert Sue McDonnell.

http://research.vet.upenn.edu/Portals/49/How to Injection Shyness.pdf

The procedures described would be of use with the whole spectrum of needle shyness from mild to pathological. Admittedly it was written for her peers, but it's not really too technical to be read by owners too.

 

[Spreebok]

These things happen, veins can be easy as pie to jab some days, and the equivalent of Hens Teeth others.

I usually go to the phlebotomist for my bloods, highly skilled people and there's always the odd occasion where my veins play hide and seek, it's not their fault.

 

[Sandstone1]

You asked if others would be annoyed.. The majority of people have replied saying no... But you keep replying giving more and more reasons why you ARE annoyed.
Leaves me wondering why you posted at all TBH.

Didn't know I needed people's permission to post, yes I'm annoyed and have reason to be. Is it not the whole point of a open forum to post your views, opinions, thoughts etc.
I thought it was.