Vets/ Vet Nurses etc - Why do you recommend a food?

[sloulou]

Am interested in this - cos it comes up alot when people ask about what food to feed their dogs.

I am not asking to be arsey - I am really interested in the answer - because then I can maybe understand where Vets and their staff are coming from on this one.

My Vet always recommends Hills Science Plan - and I think, but can't 100% remember what make it was - they suggested I bought some kind of bland diet which was made by Hills when my dog had an upset tummy that hung around for a day or two. I asked if I could do Chicken & rice -and they said yes, that would work the same.


So this is what I want to know - How do vets decide which food to recommend when people ask?

or put another way - why Hills Science Plan (or Royal canin or whatever), what makes it so good?

Cos I can't see what is so good about those foods - so I want to know from a veterinary perspective what is good about them? As I'm not a vet, I don't know you see

I mean why not recommend Burns? after all it was developed by a vet?

I fully admit that am borderline obsessed about dog food though.

:

 

[MurphysMinder]

Not a vet, and not really an answer to your question (in fact why am I replying

), but daughter is a vet student and in first year Royal Canin gave them loads of freebies, e.g. dog leads, drink bottles, lap top bags etc, not suggesting this has anything to do with what vets recommend of course.

 

[sloulou]

Thank you for replying anyway

Vets (ann-jen I think?) have said on here in the past that the companies don't offer them incentives (which is what people often accuse vets of having taken) - so I sincerely hope it's not because they get given free stuff

and i am certainly not accusing anyone of that!

There must be a Veterinary reason why they recommend one brand over another?

Nutrition is so important to the animal's health...

 

[Vikki89]

I'm not a vet but i often think it may just be their personal opinion and preference of what brands they like.

 

[CAYLA]

I do nort recommend food from work, as I work nights

However I do via the rescue, and if asked.

I advice hills

as a good puppy food, esp growth for the largesr breeds, I have never seen a food that gives so much condition and growth to puppies, esp larger breeds.

Sensitive tummies-chappie
Allergies/good quality higher priced food-JWB
A good quality more reasonably priced food for healthy dogs-chudleys

 

[sloulou]

I agree with your recommendations - except Hills

But you know I have much respect for all your advice Cala

 

[CAYLA]

Hehe, U always know the right things to say

I knew u would hate the hills suggestion

 

[Aru]

im a vet student and in our nutrition lecs most food that we were advised to recommend had a higher protein content or a better quality of product in it..ie meat vrs meat derivatives....or extra vitamins and minerals for growing pups that sort of thing but we wre also told dat most of the cheaper brands were grand as long as the dog was healthy good coat teeth etc and wasnt losing condition,..tho they were more likely to have stinky poo so that mite be considered if we knew they were being poo picked on walks by the owner!
The main things about hills and royal canin is thet they have a wide variety of different ranges so there easy to recommend and most vets tend to be selling them in the practice so its an easy solution plus as price tends to mean quality your less likely to get reactions to extra additives and that sort of thing as well...personally i dont like hills cos there the only food my glutton of a lab never took to and left food behind so now she just gets a middle cost rang one but thats just a personal opinion....oh and so far i havent got any freebie off da dog food brands yet but i live in hope!i like free stuff but it wouldnt make me more likely to recommend a food unless id tryed it on my own of course!

 

[hellspells]

[ QUOTE ]


I advice hills

as a good puppy food, esp growth for the largesr breeds, I have never seen a food that gives so much condition and growth to puppies, esp larger breeds.

Sensitive tummies-chappie
Allergies/good quality higher priced food-JWB
A good quality more reasonably priced food for healthy dogs-chudleys

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto all of this except the last - as haven't used myself. Having sat through hours and hours of reps each saying how fantastic their products are its up to the practice etc to decide what products are best for their clients etc. I like the Hills food as there is alot of science behind them and they can back all their claims up.

 

[sloulou]

Ah interesting! What science do you mean though? Am just interested? Do you mean it is nutrionally appropriate or provides a complete and balanced diet?

Cos what I don't like is the meat sources you see, doesn't seem like good qual protein:

Science Plan Puppy - from dogfoodanalysis.com site:
Ingredients:
Ground Whole Grain Corn, Chicken By-Product Meal, Soybean Meal, Animal Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Liver Flavor, Dicalcium Phosphate, Brewers Rice, Fish Oil, Flaxseed, Soybean Oil, Iodized Salt, Choline Chloride, Potassium Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, vitamins (L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.

But there certainly are alot of supplements - so maybe that is what Vets like about it?

Thank you - am muchly interested!

 

[sloulou]

[ QUOTE ]
im a vet student and in our nutrition lecs most food that we were advised to recommend had a higher protein content or a better quality of product in it..ie meat vrs meat derivatives....or extra vitamins and minerals for growing pups that sort of thing but we wre also told dat most of the cheaper brands were grand as long as the dog was healthy good coat teeth etc and wasnt losing condition,..tho they were more likely to have stinky poo so that mite be considered if we knew they were being poo picked on walks by the owner!
The main things about hills and royal canin is thet they have a wide variety of different ranges so there easy to recommend and most vets tend to be selling them in the practice so its an easy solution plus as price tends to mean quality your less likely to get reactions to extra additives and that sort of thing as well...personally i dont like hills cos there the only food my glutton of a lab never took to and left food behind so now she just gets a middle cost rang one but thats just a personal opinion....oh and so far i havent got any freebie off da dog food brands yet but i live in hope!i like free stuff but it wouldnt make me more likely to recommend a food unless id tryed it on my own of course!

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah - that goes along with all I have read too (the bit about high quality meat product)

The bit about the range makes sense too... this is things like kidney diet etc? I guess most brqands of comercial food don't go in for that level of variation... prob just puppy then a few fllavours of adult and possibly also senior and sensitive..

Thanks for your respone

 

[KarynK]

[ QUOTE ]
im a vet student and in our nutrition lecs most food that we were advised to recommend had a higher protein content or a better quality of product in it..ie meat vrs meat derivatives....or extra vitamins and minerals

[/ QUOTE ]

Just out of interest can I ask some burning questions?

Do you get any input on alternative diets such as raw meat and bones?
Who does the teaching on diets, a qualified vet or nutritionalist? are they independant or employed by the dog food industry.
How long does the input on diets last for?

 

[hellspells]

Is does look odd when seen written down like that! But (and its been a while since I sat through a 'chat') from what I can remember Hills are able to track where all of their protein sources come from, gaurenteing the contents of all food, unlike other companies where it is sourced from the cheapest place. The puppy/kitten food etc is always well respected for the the essentials it contains for growth and (I am more familiar with this than Royal Canin etc so can't talk for them) its generally reconised as one of the best 'baby' foods on the market.

Hills seem to spend alot of money on research and are forever improving their food and often asking for feed back from the practices themselves as to what they and their clients like/dislike about palatabilty etc. Which I have to say swung it for me, unlike the other two foods in practice that really didn't seem to give a monkeys what the clients thought.

 

[sloulou]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im a vet student and in our nutrition lecs most food that we were advised to recommend had a higher protein content or a better quality of product in it..ie meat vrs meat derivatives....or extra vitamins and minerals

[/ QUOTE ]

Just out of interest can I ask some burning questions?

Do you get any input on alternative diets such as raw meat and bones?
Who does the teaching on diets, a qualified vet or nutritionalist? are they independant or employed by the dog food industry.
How long does the input on diets last for?

[/ QUOTE ]

You see as I feed raw - i was going to ask the same thing.. but then i thought I's stick to the Pet Food Q's - cos I've got lots of them

Would also be interested in the answer

 

[star]

we recommend premium diets - ie Hills/Royal Canin or Purina. However, I also consider James Wellbeloved/Burns etc good diets for people who dont want to spend the money on a premium diet. my own dogs look fine on JW. Premium diets generally have more research gone into them and higher quality ingredients. I dont recommend one especially more than another but some practices do have strong links with one company over another and will sell more of one because they can get discounts on buying them in large bulk - the discounts we get on buying in that kind of bulk are passed onto the client so everyone benefits.

 

[Lucy_Nottingham]

The idea of hills and other premium diets is that they contain less additives etc and has a better balance of nutrients than cheaper feeds..

I am a vet student as well, and we got lab coats and stuff from hills, and got other items from royal canin! so this I don't think can persuade students one way or another.

The reason why vets have food X in the practice is because a PR from the company comes and put their cases forward as to why their feed is better and what benefits etc they have and why! It is then up to the practice (mainly the manager) to choose which food, often more than one is recommended for different things!

The food you got recommended, the hills bland diet is often given after operations etc because it helps keep the tummy settled, so thats why it would be given to help settle your puppys tummy! But at the same time, mine currently has gastroenteritis, and I am currently using chicken and rice as, again, I was told chicken and rice is just as good, and for me it is cheaper than buying hills!

I thinks its often personal preference, and the practice that a vet works for which will influence what food they recommend.......

 

[sloulou]

[ QUOTE ]

The reason why vets have food X in the practice is because a PR from the company comes and put their cases forward as to why their feed is better and what benefits etc they have and why! It is then up to the practice (mainly the manager) to choose which food, often more than one is recommended for different things!



[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your response lucy - but that bit about PR is a bit upsetting... It shouldn't be based on that

Anyone can put a good spin on the ingredients - but I am guessing that no PR people come from more natural food companies like Natures harvest or naturediet where the meat is high quality - see the ingredients for a chicken version of Naturediet:

Chicken, minimum 60%
Vegetables, minimum 5%
Brown Rice, minimum 5%
Omega 3 (provided by Flax, Fish Oil & Meat) minimum 0.25%
Omega 6 (provided by Flax, Fish Oil & Meat) minimum 0.75%
Natural Ground Bone
Kelp
Herbs (Rosemary and Rubbed Sage)

High quality meat sourced from animals fit for human consumption which contain essential amino acids, vitamins and minerals. High quality meat based oils provide
a concentrated energy source and are essential for healthy skin and coat.

You see to me - that looks better - but maybe it isn't?

What I fail to understand is why when we are always told that it is healthier to cook from scratch rather than buy processed ready meals - why the same isn't told to us re: dog food. And so really we should be looking for high quality basic ingredients shouldn't we?

I have said before am not a vet - so am really interested in opinions.

I do have a degree in animal physiology though - so am not toally coming from zero understanding - and I read alot of books on canine nutrition and how it works. Which doesn't make me an expert - but certainly makes me ask alot of questions

 

[Lucy_Nottingham]

I agree, it shouldnt be based on a PR's spin on the food, HOWEVER, a vet manager would rarely just say from the one visit O YES IL HAVE THAT PLEASE
they do their own research on the feed and oftne will consult the practices vets. But it is their say at the end of the day!

I think that regarding home bought and cooked ingredients will work but wont always have the right balance of everything compared to a scientifically planned and designed diet... but then again, I am a vet student so am slightly biased to the designed diets....... sorry! just hope iv helped a bit!

 

[sloulou]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, it shouldnt be based on a PR's spin on the food, HOWEVER, a vet manager would rarely just say from the one visit O YES IL HAVE THAT PLEASE
they do their own research on the feed and oftne will consult the practices vets. But it is their say at the end of the day!

I think that regarding home bought and cooked ingredients will work but wont always have the right balance of everything compared to a scientifically planned and designed diet... but then again, I am a vet student so am slightly biased to the designed diets....... sorry! just hope iv helped a bit!

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey - I vote for raw food every time

- but i'm not talking about that really - am talking about the quality of certain pet foods. and i just can't see what's so good about science plan etc. - but Thanks for explaining

Incidentally - and just to dip slightly off topic - why would my dog need a scientifically planned diet - I don't need a degree to feed myself - but i like to think I get a balanced diet over time

I have done much research into what I feed my own doggie - and to be honest - he doesn't need a balanced meal everyday - just balanced over a week... or a few weeks..

But am not advocating people rushing off and having a go a a home diet/ BARF raw food thing without research - I find it easy - but you do need to read up on stuff... That's a whole other topic

Have you seen this before? Campaign for real pet food

Am worried I have gone off topic a bit here

I do get so excited about food

 

[Lucy_Nottingham]

Tbh, I am not a nutritionist! I was just trying to explain what we had been taught about nutrition etc so far.......

Different people prefer different things! like some people prefer holistic medicine to scientific medicine!

I love food!

 

[sloulou]

[ QUOTE ]
Tbh, I am not a nutritionist! I was just trying to explain what we had been taught about nutrition etc so far.......

Different people prefer different things! like some people prefer holistic medicine to scientific medicine!

I love food!

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for explaining - is good!

My dad is a doctor and my mum a nurse - I was always bought up to trust medicine and I do - but there is also a place for holistic stuff, IMHO.

Even my parents think their dog is a changed beastie since seeing a chiropractor (Vets diagnosed end stage arthritis two years ago, but turns out it was soft tissue damage and he hip was 'out')

Am going to shut up now - am boring myself...

I love food too

 

[Aru]

Do you get any input on alternative diets such as raw meat and bones?
Who does the teaching on diets, a qualified vet or nutritionalist? are they independant or employed by the dog food industry.
How long does the input on diets last for?

Ya i can answer some of these...this is how they do it in our collage anyway not sure about the rest of them....

We have full module on animal nutrition in 2nd year with the emphasis on cattle but a few lectures on each of the other domestic species i think it was 2 on dogs and a tutorial then in 4th year we do another nutrition module that goes into greater detail..
so far all the teaching on nutrition has come from qualified vets but i havent done the 4th year module yet so they may have some specialist nutritionalists on board.
Im afraid none of the vets have been representatives of the dog food industry..to be honest i tink our lecturer for the dog nutrition seemed to think some of them were a scam as he pointed out the lack of research trials to back up some of the marketing on the food samples...but he is fairly cynical anyway so im not sure if that should be taken to heart...
raw diets were discussed though not in great lenght.the basic advise was if you think the owner has the time and intreast to research and compose a balanced diet then theres absolutely nothing wrong with that..BUT on no acount were we to advise it for all dogs unless we could be sure the owners knew it would have to be balanced correctly and the time and effort involved..as for bones well they seemed to be advised just with basic common sense involved..not cooked as they can splinter easier,not small like chicken in case they choke...but an uncooked bone from the butcher for them to chew on is grand...sure isnt that what dogs were designed for!

In the end of the day though with the practices iv been to most of the foods offered are because there the practice managers personal choice..so if you have one who is very intreasted in nutrition they might offer more unusual choices that they have researched but the majority will simply chose a safe well balanced branded food as these tend to cause very few reactions or problems...and the hills and royal canin brand both as far as i no fall into this catagory...

 

[GinaGem]

Prob not relevant but i found this quite funny. My vet has a tin of dog food (can't remember the brand now) in his treatment room with a post it note stuck on it saying something like ' what not to feed your dog!'. He's never pushed a certain brand - not even sure what food he sells. He was more than happy with us feeding raw.