Vetting showed a grade 2 heart murmour

[jonshell]

Iv just had a horse vetted which showed a grade 2 heart murmour that went after exercise. The vet has said he would carry on eventing it however for me to get a scan done. I asked if the owners would take the cost of the scan off the purchase price if it showed it to be ok and not progressive but they wont. Said it's for my piece of mind just like if I chose to have xrays done. Personally I cant see how they can compare xrays to a cardiac problem so now left unsure at what to do. Obviously I dont want the horse to drop dead underneath my daughter. Thoughts please x

 

[SEL]

Iv just had a horse vetted which showed a grade 2 heart murmour that went after exercise. The vet has said he would carry on eventing it however for me to get a scan done. I asked if the owners would take the cost of the scan off the purchase price if it showed it to be ok and not progressive but they wont. Said it's for my piece of mind just like if I chose to have xrays done. Personally I cant see how they can compare xrays to a cardiac problem so now left unsure at what to do. Obviously I dont want the horse to drop dead underneath my daughter. Thoughts please x

I'd walk away personally - but I have been rather badly bitten by serious vet bills this year

 

[Ranyhyn]

No I dont think a heart issue is something I'd mess about with personally.

 

[Annagain]

Not a heart murmur but Charlie's vetting picked up an iridal cyst in his right eye. Vet was unconcerned but I looked it up and found that to the naked eye, a cyst and a melanoma look very similar. As he is grey (and the reason I didn't want a grey was I've spent years dealing with Archie's melanomas) I really needed to check it out for my peace of mind. I paid for an ultrasound as I knew there would be plenty of other people who wouldn't be bothered by it and wouldn't check it out further. It wasn't extortionate so I was happy to go down that route. Ultrasound showed it was a cyst and the rest is happy history.

Having said that, a heart murmur is a very different thing and I would imagine any buyer would be concerned about that so it would be in the seller's interest to get it checked out. I'd even go so far as to say they should pay for it - not just take the cost off the purchase if you go ahead as they would need to declare it to any subsequent buyer if you pulled out.

 

[jonshell]

I'd walk away personally - but I have been rather badly bitten by serious vet bills this year

I have we lost my old lad in march and just lost one to grass sickness leaving me with a few thousand excess on the vet bill. Cant wait for this year to end

 

[GG13]

Walk away, there are plenty of other horses out there you don’t need to buy one with a known problem. Eventing is demanding and depending on the level you want to compete at the horse might never be capable. I had one with a low grade murmur that should have been able to compete happily, if a bit slowly, at BE100 but we only ever made it round a BE80. He just couldn’t cope with the extra effort at any higher level. Though show jumping was fine and was competitive at 1.10m plus

 

[jonshell]

Walk away, there are plenty of other horses out there you don’t need to buy one with a known problem. Eventing is demanding and depending on the level you want to compete at the horse might never be capable. I had one with a low grade murmur that should have been able to compete happily, if a bit slowly, at BE100 but we only ever made it round a BE80. He just couldn’t cope with the extra effort at any higher level. Though show jumping was fine and was competitive at 1.10m plus

Hes already been competing at 90 and 100 last year x

 

[Abi90]

If it goes away with exercise then it’s normally nothing to worry about. Basically exercise is causing the heart to “fire” properly when it’s under stress which is a good thing.

Transient heart murmurs that come and go are also known as “innocent” murmurs.

You would need the scan and to really talk to your vet in detail about it but heart murmur doesn’t always equal drop dead

 

[jonshell]

If it goes away with exercise then it’s normally nothing to worry about. Basically exercise is causing the heart to “fire” properly when it’s under stress which is a good thing.

Transient heart murmurs that come and go are also known as “innocent” murmurs.

You would need the scan and to really talk to your vet in detail about it but heart murmur doesn’t always equal drop dead

That's what's making me question what to do. I think if it was still there/worse after exercise it would be a straight walk away

 

[TPO]

Lost a horse in 2016 who developed a heart murmur

He collapsed in walk and that led to the further investigations that diagnosed the murmur.

The risk of him collapsing and hurting himself was too big/worrying to keep him as a field ornament so he was PTS

Obviously this has coloured my view for sure but personally I'd walk away

 

[oldie48]

Any vet should pick up a grade 2 murmur and I'd be surprised if the owners didn't already know about it as my vet always checks the heart before he vaccinates. My understanding is that a grade 2 is not serious and it would appear that the vet is relatively unconcerned. I think it depends how much you like the horse and it's value + how much it would cost for the scan. One of my horses had a grade 2 murmur, picked up prior to vaccination and it didn't bother him in the slightest.

 

[Annagain]

Even though prices are crazy at the moment, there will be plenty more out there competing at 90/100 without heart murmurs.

 

[Littlebear]

I bought one where this was flagged on the vetting, the owner paid for further checks as I said i wasn't prepared to buy and the checks found nothing so I did go ahead with the purchase, I went on to sell that horse and it never came up whilst i had her or again on that vetting when I sold.
I am not saying its no issue at all but I would be open minded to investigations.

 

[ihatework]

I’d agree if you want to go ahead with the purchase you should investigate the murmur first. If the horse is what you want in every other way then I think this is a cost worth considering. Murmurs can be something or nothing, at this stage it really is impossible to say.

As to who pays for the scan then there is no set rule. You are well within your rights to ask the sellers to pay, or to try and negotiate a discount on the purchase price. Equally they are well within their rights to say no.

Boils down to how much you like the horse really and if you can readily find the equivalent elsewhere ...

 

[TGM]

It's a difficult one as there are different levels of severity with heart murmurs. We got a horse on loan who was later found to have a slight heart murmur at vaccinnation time. Vet wasn't worried about it as it was mild and he went on to hunt (including field mastering and whipping in) and competing BE Novice where he usually got the time XC. He is now retired to lighter duties but only due to leg problems rather than anything to do with his heart. On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd want to buy one I knew had it unless the vet was very positive about it.

 

[Goldenstar]

There are murmurs and murmurs I would buy happily if a vet I trusted told me it was ok .

 

[jonshell]

There are murmurs and murmurs I would buy happily if a vet I trusted told me it was ok .

Before it was worked he said he wasnt worried about it and obviously even more positive that it went away after exercise. However he did tell me to get it scanned ?‍

 

[ihatework]

Before it was worked he said he wasnt worried about it and obviously even more positive that it went away after exercise. However he did tell me to get it scanned ?‍

Well that’s vet speak for ‘I think this murmur is fine, but to cover my back and to put your mind/insurance at rest then you should probably double check it’. Which is fair enough really.

 

[Leandy]

If the vet has said it is likely fine but recommended a scan out of caution, I would get the scan for peace of mind and would not buy the horse without. Who pays for it is simply a matter of negotiation. The seller will know that a problem like this found at a vetting is going to be a problem for anyone who vets the horse so it is in their interests to try to get you happy to buy rather than to have to find a new buyer and risk another vetting. I'd say you have the upper hand here. If I were you I would tell the buyer I will buy the horse if the outcome of the scan comes back positive and stick to your guns on the price reduction. An alternative is to offer to split the cost on the scan.

 

[ycbm]

I don't understand how the owners expect to sell a horse with a heart murmur for the same price as a horse without one.

For a start, there is likely to be an insurance exclusion put on the whole circulatory system, which could result in a fight over a claim for any part of the body.

The potential difficulty if i ever wanted to resell would have me walking away.
.

 

[Trouper]

Walk away. Owning horses is fraught enough with medical dramas without starting out with an issue. You will have no idea how it might develop and, as others have said, it will be an impediment on the insurance too.

 

[humblepie]

I bought my now 24 year old when he was 7 and the vetting showed a heart murmur up. As it happened the vendor had already had a work up done on him and provided that to my vet. It is likely that most people looking to buy the horse will have a vetting done, so it is probably in the vendor's interest to get a more detailed report or otherwise reduce the price of the horse considerably.

 

[onemoretime]

Well that’s vet speak for ‘I think this murmur is fine, but to cover my back and to put your mind/insurance at rest then you should probably double check it’. Which is fair enough really.

My concern would be getting the horse insured. Insurance companies are so picky nowadays.

 

[onemoretime]

I don't understand how the owners expect to sell a horse with a heart murmur for the same price as a horse without one.

For a start, there is likely to be an insurance exclusion put on the whole circulatory system, which could result in a fight over a claim for any part of the body.

The potential difficulty if i ever wanted to resell would have me walking away.
.

My thoughts exactly. There will be lots of horses coming up for sale soon, I would walk away. It is quite possible that the seller already knew about the problem as Im sure they have had a vet put a stethoscope on the horse at some point. Insurance can be a nightmare at the best of times.

 

[jonshell]

This is my concern iv rang insurance companies today but they cant tell me what they would exclude until I send them the vet report which I'm waiting on. I think I'm going to check out the insurance situation before I think about booking in for the scan. I obviously know they will exclude cardiac but thinking if it leads to respiratory etc ?‍

 

[fredflop]

One horse I bought had been a huntsmans horse, got him vetted by an experienced vet, no issues.

couple of years later a very young vet said he had a heart mumour. I know which vet I believed!

 

[doodle]

They can develop them though. Minto was about 18 when the routine check before vaccinations happened and found a slight murmur, and I had had him for 11 years by that point.

 

[Rowreach]

I bought my now 24 year old when he was 7 and the vetting showed a heart murmur up. As it happened the vendor had already had a work up done on him and provided that to my vet. It is likely that most people looking to buy the horse will have a vetting done, so it is probably in the vendor's interest to get a more detailed report or otherwise reduce the price of the horse considerably.

I bought one of mine at 8 (with a murmur) and he was hunting twice a week and eventing low level well into his teens and still huntingthe odd day happily at 24. Had him pts at 26 for unrelated issues. So it can make no difference at all to many of them.

I do think if I were selling a horse with a murmur I would get the scan done myself to show to any prospective buyer.

 

[AandK]

Hmmm, speaking from experience, my 23yo failed his vetting as a 5yo due to a heart murmur that didn’t ease with exercise. I initially walked away, but couldn’t stop thinking about him and so offered £2k less than the asking price and bought him anyway. He’s never had an issue with his heart or fitness, suspect he grew out of it (had a GA in 2015 and nothing noted). His old owners weren’t willing to investigate, said they’d keep him as a hack as he is such a nice person to have around!
But, that was 18yrs ago and things have changed a lot since insurance wise. I’m older and wiser now and probably wouldn’t take the risk unless the horse had the scan to confirm as recommended by the vet.

 

[Kahlua]

I’ve had horses with heart murmurs (for dressage) and they’ve never been a problem. You always needs to make sure your vet checks the heart rate before any injections, and go a bit lighter on the sedation. However I would absolutely be getting a scan / ecg done as you need to find out exactly what type the level 2 is, (eg whether it is through the left or right valves, aortic, systolic etc etc). With regards to insurance as long as the vet is willing to write in their report that the horse is fit for purpose you shouldn’t have any problem, Shearwater recently insured a friends horse without any exclusions with a level 2/3 murmur. If the vet is not willing to do this, well then you probably have your answer as to whether you move ahead or not. People will always say, and I have advised my clients on many occasions myself - don’t start with an issue, there will be other horses out there, but at the end of the day what you feel you can live with is up to you, yes mine were for dressage but if I’d walked away from a horse with a heart murmur I would’ve walked away from one of the best horses I ever had ??‍