vicious foal - help please!

[ginadrummond]

Hello, this is my first post. Last Saturday I purchased from auction ((at a very disreputable breeders property) an eight year old mare with foal at foot (born 19th August). The foal is totally unhandled and when we tried to get it home it became fractious and double barrelled constantly. When we eventually got it home, we have tried our best for the last week but the (quite dangerous) traits remain. Mum (who was purchased for my novice husband) is absolutely brilliant - leads, loaded and didn't really panic when we were trying to load the foal. I would appreciate advice please. Currently bringing them in at night and this is getting easier (took 6 people the first time despite the mare walking in beautifully) but making little if any progress with the foal. Are they born bad????

Gina

 

[AmyMay]

Lots of people on here will be able to offer you some wonderful advice regarding foals, rearing and handling them.

But bottom line is that at the moment you have an unhandled baby who was probably scared out of its wits by what was going on - it's natural reaction was to lash out. This doesn't mean it's bad or vicious. You're going to need to proceed with caution, tact and sympathy.

You have plenty of time to work through this problem as you won't be weaning for some time yet. The more you can handle it gently the better.

Good luck.

 

[Bex7]

I cannot offer any advice but I am sure plenty on here can.

Hopefully it will calm down once baby adjusts

 

[Christmas_Kate]

Jeez, if only my YO was on here today, she had a similar experience. She had a filly who would throw itself at solid walls rather than be touched. She wasnt born like this, she had had an accident which made her nervy of people.
YO stabled her, but unable to even go in the stable without being kicked things were pretty bad, so in desperation she just chucked her out in the field with the other mares (and her mum) for a few months whilst she re-thought things.
She brought her in some months later (i think it was about 4 months...she wintered out), and just got on with it. I remember us fetching her in, the filly jumped the menage fence she was that terrified! We got her into a stable. YO's stables are in a little yard so you can shut the gate and anything loose in the yard can't get out. So this helped alot as she could be let out and still not be restricted.
YO went into her stable with her and played 'skipping ropes' where she got a bit of rope and gently dropped it on the floor infront of the filly, building up to the rope going over her neck, back etc. The filly was fine with it. It seems that being chucked out for a few months just allowed her to grow up and get her head sorted. She saw the others being handled and it was literally like a switch went in her head and she went "yeah okay".
She started feeding the filly in the lorry and after a week (the filly wasnt bothered at all), took her to a show where the fily stood tied to the lorry (with her mum) perfectly fine. She behaved so well that others who had seen her before didnt believe it was her. She had been known locally as "the mad foal" and now...well, butter wouldnt melt! She's only just turned one, and now is 100% handleable. So the trick is...just chuck it out in the field and try again later!

 

[AmyMay]

[ QUOTE ]
So the trick is...just chuck it out in the field and try again later!

[/ QUOTE ]
When it will be bigger, stronger, more willfull, unwormed, unvaccinated, unfed, unweaned, and even more unhandled ...................

 

[vic07]

The filly was foaled in the field at lunch time, I found her on her feet suckling in the afternoon. Because we weren't there at birth we really struggled with getting a foal slip on her and handling her. Persistance paid off and she is now a little sweetie.

IMO I would really doubt a foal is viscous, just scared and upset. I would persist with handling foal, without getting hurt, as it has got to trust you and be confident in its surroundings. Foal at the moment is following her natural instincts to protect herself. Good luck.

 

[ladylisa]

I think its a case of not to rush things, take one step at a time. things might get easier when foal is away from mum and will soon see you as the one who provides food, and will want to investigate!

 

[airedale]

totally agree. The YO in the above example is obviously a pro and also probably waited until she had more free time to fiddle than in a busy summer.....?!

foals aren't born bad - unless the sire or dam are themselves 'dodgy' (I know of one TB line from years ago that had that reputation). From the sounds of it the mare's temp. is OK - so what is the sire as you bought it from a breeder ? Someone on here will know stallion backgrounds - they always come up trumps on that sort of info!!!

personally you'll have to persevere but with hat and body protector on to start with. Certainly if the foal is to be sold eventually, with a glut on the horse market you'll need to have it handled to get sold - apart from the welfare aspects of jabs, worming, feet, etc.

to start with see if you can get it to hand feed mix from you, or carrot or apple. Way to most animals hearts is thru their stomachs.

if it'll accept food from your hand then you could always - with vets approval and advice - get some acp tablets to enable you to slightly take the edge off the foal so that it learns to be handled - however you must use the acp merely to take small steps - not as an "it's doped so lets get 15 million things done to it today" - that will just scare it more.

 

[Maesfen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So the trick is...just chuck it out in the field and try again later!

[/ QUOTE ]
When it will be bigger, stronger, more willfull, unwormed, unvaccinated, unfed, unweaned, and even more unhandled ...................

[/ QUOTE ]

You've got it in one AmyMay!! What a silly idea, never heard such a stupid thing in my life, sorry and all that - but Airedale put it far better than me - tact is not my middle name, sorry!

I have a strong suspicion that this mare and foal came from Hereford way, I stand to be corrected though. If this is right, I'm sure Vicjp on here can give you a lot more info about the handling methods there, ask her!
It would be very interesting to know the breeding of the foal, it could well be a partly inherited thing but most foals aren't born nasty; it is either totally wrong handling or no handling at all - and therefore fear - which makes them like this which is why you will have to be so careful in how you react to the foal.

The last thing this foal needs is to be turned out without handling but it does help that the mare is good. It doesn't sound like you've got a headcollar on it yet even but the main thing is to get it touchable which will take time (and guts on your part, sorry original poster, not you AM!) It would help if there are two of you to start and neither of you should be nervous, that is the last thing needed; to a certain extent, you need to be able to 'wade in', not hold back being afraid you will get kicked otherwise that will make it loads worse for you and the foal,when the time comes. If that is the case it might be better to send them to a professional yard or stud for a fortnight where they know how to deal with this type of situation and can read what is going to happen before it does if that makes sense. If that is the case and it's going away, it would be better to do it now rather than later.
If you are going to do it, you will need patience and time by the bucket load, just to warn you! Do wear a hard hat and non slip boots but I think until you have hold of foal in a headcollar you will be better without gloves so the foal can 'feel' you more and vice versa. To satrt, two people would be better than one - one to hold the mare steady, the other to concentrate on the foal. If the mare doesn't mind you handling her while she is eating, give her her tea in one corner and quite near the wall, hold onto her, other try to herd foal between mare and wall and just be happy that foal is there, don't push any more for a first time. If you can be brushing/stroking mare on the opposite side to foal, just do that all the while talking to the foal in a singsongy type voice as you move backwards along the mare. Person holding mare should gently start stroking mare's neck on the same side as foal is standing, again, talking all the while. Foal will probably try to shoot back away from them but by that time you will be scratching mare's backside too so it won't know where to go. Just be gentle but firm, almost ignore foal but be aware what it's doing, try to keep it boxed in between mare and wall while it is watching both of you stroking the mare. It will watch believe me, they are so curious but for the first time don't try anything else, just make sure it sees you and the mare being friendly towards each other. Do this a couple of days; here you will have to read the situation carefully. Hopefully it will start to relax while you are handling mare thinking this is the normal routine now so try to come closer to it by moving up from the rear of the mare; with any luck it will start to think about sniffing you - let it, don't make any sudden moves, almost ignore it. It should soon start letting you scratch it especially on the bum. Foals don't like to be touched on their faces much and need you to be down by their level if possible at first otherwise they feel threatened but they do love to be scratched on bum, chest, withers and neck so these are the places you first try to 'gain access'. Once you have this kind of access, hopefully you will be able to go in box and it will approach you for the scratch; then, you will have made progress and can go from there.
If you haven't time or you think foal could too strong for you then you could always enlist your blacksmith/vet/local farmer to be the brawn. They are used to handling strong animals and catching them by hooking them round the neck and holding it againgst the wall while you manage to get a headcollar on it to start with. If they can still hold it, you could run your hands all over it (don't forget to talk nicely to it all the time) and it will be easier if the mare can be held directly in front of it so it can touch her for reassurance. It's not my recommended approach but sometimes it is the only way you will be able to touch it at all to start with; they usually think, once they have been touched that you aren't so bad after all and come round quite quickly as long as you are quiet and tactful in your approach.
When it's time to put on a headcollar for the first time (asap to be honest!) undo it so you can slide it over his neck and do up headpiece first; he'll probably jump away but as long as it's done up don't worry. As soon as he's calmed down again, gently thread noseband over nose and do up and that's the part they usually hate so you will have to hang on to a broncing billygoat! Please use a leather H/C not a nylon one, then it can stay on until it is quite happy about you handling it; also a H/C is far better than a foal slip, you have very little contol in those things and they grow out of them so quickly.
To give you some idea, when I had Bear as a just weaned but unhandled 6 month foal standing 14.2., it took me three weeks from being untouchable to being able to scratch him all over simply by standing in the middle of his box and touching him as he raced by and if he stopped, I walked him on again (very basic but the cheap version of Monty Roberts!

) I eventually managed to scratch from bum to neck and he was cracked so it does work!
Do let us know how you get on; I love a challenge!

 

[ginadrummond]

Thanks so much for all the advice, which pretty much goes along the lines I was thinking. Interestingly this foal has had a nasty at some point as has a big mark down its spine - quite deep by the looks of it. So I guess this is a contributory factor. Mare's been in a tussle with some barb quite recently too. both too covered in mud to see this at inspection and with so many mares and foals in a small field, most people weren't going in so brought the two of them 'at a distance' mare is a skewbald TB/ID 15.1 but stallion 17.3 so I really do need to get a hold of the foal. We're in Aberdeenshire and I'm worried about the winter coming in for such a late foal. I had intended to bed down a field shelter for them and let them come and go whilst bringing in my competition horse and hubby's horse for the winter. May need to rethink. I have a rug for the foal but as correctly guessed can't get near enough to even think of a headcollar so rugging/feeding/worming all wishful thinking. I do intend to worm the mare gradually though, starting today with 200mls which I'll repeat over 3 days (scared of collicing her). I'm not sure this was one of my smarter purchases!!!! Thanks again and would love to hear any more experiences

 

[filly190]

Good luck and take care, I'm sure you will sort this out with time and patience. I feel the above posts have all tried very hard to help and now its up to you to do as feel fit.

Its a terribly hard situation and not the best time of year

 

[flyingfeet]

Horses are NEVER born bad, people make them that way.

An unhandled foal is a flight or fight animal, so when trapped, the only self defence it has is to kick out at the nasty predators (i.e you!)

I strongly suggest investing a monty roberts dvd, this gives great tips on body language and how to handle a wild horse. Foals may be young, but they still understand horse body language.

 

[airedale]

or Parelli, or whatever else is currently in fashion in the horse world - sorry but it's common sense - you cannot force an animal to willingly do anything it doesn't want to do - end of story.

so you have to build a trust relationship so that the horse - or in this case foal - wants to come near you

as I said before - work on the feeding time - it'll be feeding and eating mothers food - so start by having the patience to split the feeds into 2 or 3 times per day and stand holding the food bowl off the floor for mum - if baby wants to come over and eat - just play 'statues' and do nothing at all for a week - then baby will realise you bring goodies in form of food

next step - get baby to eat from your hand

don't try and grab it

and then carry on - way to horses heart is thru it's stomach. They only tolerate us riding them as boredom breaks between sessions of eating )

but you will have to set aside time over next 2 or 3 weeks at least to just be bored. I use the feeding time regime a lot with babies anyway - nothing like being the manger holding the food to get a horse to come to you !!!

 

[Christmas_Kate]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So the trick is...just chuck it out in the field and try again later!

[/ QUOTE ]
When it will be bigger, stronger, more willfull, unwormed, unvaccinated, unfed, unweaned, and even more unhandled ...................

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you implying that she let it out unwormed and unweaned?

In actual fact, this was done on the advice from one of the country's top eventers who has spent the last 30 years handling youngsters. Once the filly had gotten her own head sorted she was a doddle to handle.
My reply was simply to say that sometimes it's better for the foal to decide it wants to do something than be forced into it, which may cause the foal or handler injury. Many youngsters are messed up by harsh handling when the animal is actually scared. I don't see how any good can come from rushing things. You can wean a foal without handling it. When weaned you can then worm it.
The foal in question has obviously been through a traumatic time, with being put through a sales etc, so needs time to adjust and sort it's head out before anything is done.

 

[henryhorn]

Can't add anymore really to maesfenhorse's excellent reply. You need to actually get hold of it usually by backing it into a corner behind the mare as a barrier then grab it round the neck and hold on..This is why muscle is advised as they often leap skywards! Once you have a foal slip on it is progressively easier to get them, although we handle ours whenever we can, some stay pretty wild until we make a point of doing some positive handling for a few days. Once you have a foal's itchy spots it's a doddle after that!
Yes, some horses are born with nasty temperaments, but this doesn't sound like one of them to me, it just sounds scared and doesn't know who or what you are yet.

 

[AmyMay]

Absolutely no critiscm intended. So please don't take offence. It just doens't seem the most sensible way to deal with a situtation like this. Obviously someone who is very knowledgable may well get away with it.

[ QUOTE ]
In actual fact, this was done on the advice from one of the country's top eventers

[/ QUOTE ]
Excellent to hear that your friend got the best advise she could. However, my experience of some of these 'top eventers' is that when it comes to management of youngsters they don't have a clue - so keep an open mind.....

 

[Christmas_Kate]

No offence taken. The way the filly was, she couldnt even be mucked out so either would be living in her own sh**e or ended up killing herself or someone. Turning her away worked for her. With some youngsters they just need alot of time and patience and I'm just a great beliver in not stressing anything out if there isnt an urgent need.

 

[Salcey]

All our foals are born 'wild' in the field. They are bought in after weaning to begin to be handled in preparation for selling so are not touched till 7-8months. This foal sounds as if its behaving like the frightened little baby it is.
You need to give the baby a chance to get to know you without demanding anything else in return. You need to keep your wits about you and take sensible precautions when bringing in or out, or going into the stable. You will find that once you start giving the mum some attention the foal will begin to accept you as a 'friend' rather than predator. Its a time exercise really but don't do too much too soon.
Don't push yourself to 'get hold of it', if you take time getting a foal slip on will become a natural progression once it lets you touch it and fondle it. If you go in with a foal slip now and try and get hold of it it wont do either of you any favours.

Just as a note, my mare had a foal two years ago that unfortunately needed to go to hospital at 8weeks old as it grew to quickly

. This foal had a lot of fiddling and touching because of this and it turned into a total s*d. She thought the world revolved around her and had no respect for humans at all.
The remedy to this was to turn it away for tw0 years, turned out 24/7, no rug, just extra food. She is now a lovely well balanced youngster that now likes humans again. All it took was time!

 

[Christmas_Kate]

[ QUOTE ]

The remedy to this was to turn it away for tw0 years, turned out 24/7, no rug, just extra food. She is now a lovely well balanced youngster that now likes humans again. All it took was time!

[/ QUOTE ]

My point exactly

IMO turning away can do the world of good. No pressure, just learning from the herd.

 

[ginadrummond]

Thanks so much everyone. I managed a stroke of the nose tonight after reading all the advice but was then really stupid and pushed the envelope too far and got a double barrell for my error - shame. Foal is now resembling 'the alien', desperate to communicate but rushing up with teeth and skewed neck. I wish it would take some feed but it is at least sniffing hand. Slowly but surely I think. Its only handling has been herding into the stocks for microchipping and blood testing which combined with the injury has probably terrified it. Not moving away from stable door in a hurry tonight either and had a right caper on the way in - skipping, circling and bucking around me and mum. Good advice I think about hat and body protector. I feel much more confident that I don't have a monster, just a poor scared little baby. Will she live out?????

 

[Salcey]

Keep us posted as to how you get on. I'm sure you'll be fine. Babies are tougher than you think as long as they have shelter and food and theres no medical reason as to why she should be in, then out would be best. However being in will give you greater opportunity to befriend her so maybe in is best.