Videoing lessons RS

[McGrools]

Hi, just after opinions on this.
I am a teacher at a riding school. I have recently noticed that more and more parents are videoing the entire lessons of their kids on their phones. I have nothing to hide, but it is becoming the norm and i’m not sure i’m overly comfortable being recorded constantly.
Most of the kids are young and novice, and their lessons are frankly very boring. I can understand parents wanting to record a few minutes or even the interesting bits. but i have parents who will record the whole half hour from start to finish? I have 2 parents who record a full hour group lesson every week of their child.
there will be a day when someone falls off and the video evidence used against the RS even though we are extremely risk averse and lessons very uneventful as a result.
Would you be happy with this as a teacher or would you feel a bit like your permission should be sought first? I am quite a private person and dont really want to be plastered over social media without my control.
am i being unreasonable?

 

[HG95]

I do think permission should be sought before people wack out the camera. I certainly think they are crossing a line videoing other people's children that's a huge no in my eye!

 

[Equi]

If there are other children in the lesson then filming should absolutely not be allowed as its a safeguarding issue. Its not strictly legal to film someone without permission unless they are in the process of criminality, or for evidence gathering if crimes are suspected etc (or it is a public place and they are performing etc) . So i don't think you are being unreasonable.

 

[teapot]

Permission should definitely be asked for. The RS should have a specific safeguarding policy on it.

We took it very seriously at my old work as we had a number of children who were fostered.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

No I don't think you're being unreasonable. I asked my RS if they had a policy on photos/videos/social media when I started there as I wanted to share some pictures and videos from my lessons (which are private). They didn't have a policy but said that it was fine. If they would have said no then I would have respected that, although I find watching videos of me riding incredibly helpful for my learning so that would be a downside for me. I can't imagine I'd ever watch back a full hour though!

 

[McGrools]

No I don't think you're being unreasonable. I asked my RS if they had a policy on photos/videos/social media when I started there as I wanted to share some pictures and videos from my lessons (which are private). They didn't have a policy but said that it was fine. If they would have said no then I would have respected that, although I find watching videos of me riding incredibly helpful for my learning so that would be a downside for me. I can't imagine I'd ever watch back a full hour though!

I cant imagine these parents ever watch it back either, its sooo boring most of the time, i feel like its more ‘evidence gathering’. How there phones dont run out of memory or battery i’ll never know!

 

[McGrools]

Permission should definitely be asked for. The RS should have a specific safeguarding policy on it.

We took it very seriously at my old work as we had a number of children who were fostered.

Thankyou, i will put this forward as a safeguarding policy issue. Everyone is way too quick to whip out their phones nowadays! Xx

 

[stormox]

It is definately not ok to video/photo other children in the lesson, and permission should be asked before you video your own child. There us a notice on the school gate where I ride to that effect but still some parents turn up with cameras!

 

[teapot]

Thankyou, i will put this forward as a safeguarding policy issue. Everyone is way too quick to whip out their phones nowadays! Xx

This is a really useful resource, regardless of whether you're BHS approved or not http://www.bhs.org.uk/~/media/docum...e-on-the-use-of-photography-022019.ashx?la=en


ETS: same policy goes for kids wearing go pros etc

 

[McGrools]

Many thanks Teapot. I shall raise the issue asap xx

 

[McGrools]

It is definately not ok to video/photo other children in the lesson, and permission should be asked before you video your own child. There us a notice on the school gate where I ride to that effect but still some parents turn up with cameras!

Thankyou, i shall make this point. Xx

 

[mini_b]

They have to ask permission before filming YOU surely?
I don’t think you are being unreasonable at all

 

[McFluff]

Permission should always be sought, and parents shouldn’t film anyone other than their own child. SportScotland has a guide https://sportscotland.org.uk/documents/help_for_clubs/safeguarding/safe_in_care_guidelines.doc
and I would think sportengland would have similar.
we ban videos of lessons at my work (sports other than riding).

 

[Kaylum]

Put a notice up saying no filming allowed. We have one in our rs and one at our sports centre.

 

[Red-1]

I think you are over thinking this.

Of course, if it is a group lesson and other children are there, then NO, it is not allowed to film. If this is the circumstance, I am surprised there isn't already a policy, for child protection. People should not have to declare that they have a reason not to be on social media, it should very much be opt in rather than opt out, if there is reason to film.

BUT

If it is a private lesson, I think it is reasonable to film. I used to film my jumping lessons. Mum would film the entire thing, if she was there. If not, my trainer would wear a head cam, so I got the (wobbly) lot!

The only time there was a near issue was when she nearly forgot to turn it / take it off when she went to the toilet!

I didn't film it to look for a reason to sue her.

I used it to learn.

I used it to give myself confidence, that yes, I COULD do it!

I used it to see what the possible cause of any disasters were.

I used it because, when actually riding, I found I missed half the important information she had given.

And yes, I also used clips from it for social media.

I did, of course ask for permission to use it. She had no issue.

I was a private trainer myself. Don't get me wrong, I actually hated to be filmed myself. It took some getting used to, but you do get used to it. I still hate to hear my voice on film, but I think that is true of everyone.

As for if there is an accident, I jolly well hope there is a film! It will show that I made appropriate decisions and did all I could to avoid that accident. I could use it to take an accurate report of what happened. I cold show how I had started simple and gradually made it more complex. I could have demonstrated how each step was successfully completed before we progressed.

If I did something wrong, I could learn from that. I would hope my insurance would pay any damages that I had caused, if I had done something wrong. If I had done something wrong, I would be glad that reparations were made.

TBH, I think it would be good practice for every riding school to have CCTV covering the arena. Not for social media, but for cover that the organisation could prove that every effort had been made to ensure safety. The video would be the same as in shops, it is commonplace now in society. I have CCTV at home, there are indeed some laws surrounding its capture and use, but they are not at all tricky. It requires the organisation to be responsible on the storage and destruction of said video, to keep it secure. But, it is not difficult or expensive.

I think that a riding school is somewhere where people go for fun, pleasure, learning, socialising and their high times. It is part of the sport industry, leisure industry and entertainment industry. Videoing a private lesson is, these days, part of all of that. If a riding school banned videoing a private lesson, then I would be suspicious.

 

[McGrools]

Thanks Red. I get your thinking and i do appreciate some video of some of my training and riding, but these are generally novices and tots learning to do rising trot for half an hour on or just off the lead rein and there really is nothing to be learned from half an hr of that footage surely? I can not imagine anybody watching it back. They probably just make movies and stick it on social media.
In fact i did ask one parent to video a bit of her 4 year old child trying to master rising trot so she could show the child later in an effort to see where she needed to improve.
These are not ‘horsey’ people at all, they are to me people who just cant put their phone away. I imagine they film child doing every mundane task under the sun.
i can totally see where video is relevant i just dont like the idea of endless videos of myself circulating in the ether that i have no control of.

 

[dogatemysalad]

Videoing childrens experiences is lovely and useful to measure progress. However, filming 30 minutes of walk and trot is a bit excessive. As a parent, I'd be mortified if someone fimed my child in a group lesson. Even worse if they had a mishap and the video was posted for the amusement of people on social media.
I'd compromise and invite parents to film a short segment at end the lesson, and only filming their own child. We used to end our lessons with a bit of fun stuff, so everyone went home with a smile and keen to return next week.
I'm really not a fan of people videoing others without permission. When a friend exercised my horse because I'd injured my leg, I was a bit disturbed to find that half the yard had turned out to watch and various videos were posted on FB. The videos themselves were really good, but surely, it would have been polite to check with me first.

 

[Annagain]

I find it really sad that parents want to view everything their kids do through the frame of a smartphone rather than taking the whole scene in and interacting with them.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

No-one has the automatic right to film on private land. They must ask permission first. The RS definitely needs to have a policy and procedure on this. I can't see the problem, apart from being bored rigid, with filming a private lesson but certainly not a group lesson with other people's children, where express permission hasn't been obtained. Schools don't allow parents to film onsite, why should you? In fact if you get the paperwork in place the RS could set up a camera to film lessons and charge the parents for a copy. That way you would be in charge of anything that is published - and have the copyright.


ETA but the parents of every child in the lesson would have to give written permission for a group lesson to be filmed.

 

[teapot]

I think you are over thinking this.

Of course, if it is a group lesson and other children are there, then NO, it is not allowed to film. If this is the circumstance, I am surprised there isn't already a policy, for child protection. People should not have to declare that they have a reason not to be on social media, it should very much be opt in rather than opt out, if there is reason to film.

BUT

If it is a private lesson, I think it is reasonable to film. I used to film my jumping lessons. Mum would film the entire thing, if she was there. If not, my trainer would wear a head cam, so I got the (wobbly) lot!

The only time there was a near issue was when she nearly forgot to turn it / take it off when she went to the toilet!

I didn't film it to look for a reason to sue her.

I used it to learn.

I used it to give myself confidence, that yes, I COULD do it!

I used it to see what the possible cause of any disasters were.

I used it because, when actually riding, I found I missed half the important information she had given.

And yes, I also used clips from it for social media.

I did, of course ask for permission to use it. She had no issue.

I was a private trainer myself. Don't get me wrong, I actually hated to be filmed myself. It took some getting used to, but you do get used to it. I still hate to hear my voice on film, but I think that is true of everyone.

As for if there is an accident, I jolly well hope there is a film! It will show that I made appropriate decisions and did all I could to avoid that accident. I could use it to take an accurate report of what happened. I cold show how I had started simple and gradually made it more complex. I could have demonstrated how each step was successfully completed before we progressed.

If I did something wrong, I could learn from that. I would hope my insurance would pay any damages that I had caused, if I had done something wrong. If I had done something wrong, I would be glad that reparations were made.

TBH, I think it would be good practice for every riding school to have CCTV covering the arena. Not for social media, but for cover that the organisation could prove that every effort had been made to ensure safety. The video would be the same as in shops, it is commonplace now in society. I have CCTV at home, there are indeed some laws surrounding its capture and use, but they are not at all tricky. It requires the organisation to be responsible on the storage and destruction of said video, to keep it secure. But, it is not difficult or expensive.

I think that a riding school is somewhere where people go for fun, pleasure, learning, socialising and their high times. It is part of the sport industry, leisure industry and entertainment industry. Videoing a private lesson is, these days, part of all of that. If a riding school banned videoing a private lesson, then I would be suspicious.

You're an adult though. For anyone under 18 it carries some big issues. CCTV is also an expensive and sometimes contentious issue for riding schools too. Lots of rules and regs in place, for security, data protection, and GDPR reasons, let alone safeguarding. When it's your home, it's far easier to sort out. The moment you're a business, especially providing activities for under 18s, there is a lot to consider! I have had to deal with this, and the fall out of children being inadvertently in videos posted all over social media when they shouldn't have been. Safeguarding, duty of care etc is not as simple as 'chuck some cctv up'.

If you were on site seeing lessons, you'd know there was nothing suspicious about having no videoing policies in place. That's like saying it's suspicious for a school to ban the Christmas whatever being filmed.

 

[McGrools]

I find it really sad that parents want to view everything their kids do through the frame of a smartphone rather than taking the whole scene in and interacting with them.

This 100%. I want them to watch with their own eyes rather than feel it needs recording! Its like the folk who go to a music concert and sit recording it rather than just be in the moment watching it. Its a sad world we are living in. ?

 

[Red-1]

You're an adult though. For anyone under 18 it carries some big issues. CCTV is also an expensive and sometimes contentious issue for riding schools too. Lots of rules and regs in place, for security, data protection, and GDPR reasons, let alone safeguarding. When it's your home, it's far easier to sort out. The moment you're a business, especially providing activities for under 18s, there is a lot to consider! I have had to deal with this, and the fall out of children being inadvertently in videos posted all over social media when they shouldn't have been. Safeguarding, duty of care etc is not as simple as 'chuck some cctv up'.

If you were on site seeing lessons, you'd know there was nothing suspicious about having no videoing policies in place. That's like saying it's suspicious for a school to ban the Christmas whatever being filmed.

I am aware of the legislation (the generalisation, not the chapter and verse) from my various positions working within schools, independent educational establishments, public organisations who invite children and young people onto the premises, as well as my own CCTV. It is partly because of that experience that I stated my surprise that the riding school currently has NO apparent policy re safeguarding and currently allowing videoing in what would seem to be shared lessons.

I am aghast that you have had to deal with the fallout of an organisation uploading CCTV to social media, without express consent. I am not surprised there was an outcry and I do hope that no long term damage was done - hence also stating, "It requires the organisation to be responsible on the storage and destruction of said video, to keep it secure." Yes, there are rules. Yes, they have to be read and complied with. But no, it is not impossible, or even that difficult once set up, if everyone is trained and responsible.

You mis-quoted me in the final paragraph. I did not say that there was anything, "suspicious about having no videoing policies in place." I did say that I am surprised. Which I am. If a riding school invites a group of children onto the premises for an organised activity, led by an activity leader, then the leader sees that videoing regularly takes place without consent of all parties, suspects it is for the purpose of social media, yet does nothing to control the videoing or what happens to it, then I AM surprised. I am surprised simply because I am immersed in the safeguarding culture, and there is precious little going on in that situation.

I did say I would be suspicious if a private lesson could not be filmed. Being filmed as an instructor in the leisure/pleasure/sporting industry does tend to come with the territory these days. The world has changed. I would understand totally if an instructor said they didn't want to be on social media, and would expect the person filming to be bound by that. But, if filming was banned altogether for my own private lesson, I would wonder why. I have been to many top trainers, none have refused to be videoed.

As for someone giving the reason it should not be allowed, because they are only walking and trotting, and that is boring... well, I do wonder why people teach. I can find a total lesson in walk to be fascinating. Even if I did not, personally, find a particular lesson fascinating to watch, I can remember back to when a ride on a dusty school horse was the absolute highlight of my week, and I would replay the lesson over and over I my head. If only video was around then. I think there is a certain amount of not walking in the shoes of the people who are paying for the lessons.

None of my trainers when I have paid for a lesson has ever expressed the opinion that my lessons are too boring to film anyway. If they ever did, I would think they should look to their training technique.

 

[Spirit2021]

This is going to be hash but I pretty sure that something is wrong in the riding school if you’re worried about being sued . Probably unsuitable horses or not proper safety procedures insurance should cover it anyway. I can understand people not want to be filmed but I feel like there is a another reason than just not wanting to be filmed.

 

[teapot]

I am aware of the legislation (the generalisation, not the chapter and verse) from my various positions working within schools, independent educational establishments, public organisations who invite children and young people onto the premises, as well as my own CCTV. It is partly because of that experience that I stated my surprise that the riding school currently has NO apparent policy re safeguarding and currently allowing videoing in what would seem to be shared lessons.

Whereas to me it doesn't surprise me - I've been on equestrian safeguarding courses where people have looked up open mouthed when it came to photographers on site or videos being taken. The industry sadly in some areas is stuck in the 1950s.

I am aghast that you have had to deal with the fallout of an organisation uploading CCTV to social media, without express consent. I am not surprised there was an outcry and I do hope that no long term damage was done - hence also stating, "It requires the organisation to be responsible on the storage and destruction of said video, to keep it secure." Yes, there are rules. Yes, they have to be read and complied with. But no, it is not impossible, or even that difficult once set up, if everyone is trained and responsible.

It wasn't an organisation, it was the clients. We had all the rules and policies set in stone. It didn't stop 14 year olds uploading to Instagram. Some of you may be unaware of the instagram craze for kids posting every bloody thing they do in a lesson to boost their popularity, coupled with dressing the poor RS pony in matchy matchy for likes and follows. You try monitoring that on a day to day basis while running a busy equestrian centre/livery yard, where each kid has two, sometimes three accounts all under aliases you may never find. You're talking hours and hours. Let alone tiktok/facebook/snapchat.

Re CCTV access - unlike schools where the staff are not freelance/more transient, and for the most part unlike schools, most riding schools won't have a secure office space where CCTV can be captured safely and securely. The costs, training and what happens if things go wrong, can be too much for smaller centres, who are struggling to pay bills. In an ideal world with the right set up, staffing, training, and access then absolutely CCTV is an easy thing to have, but the industry has far bigger battles to be fighting at the moment, which is why cctv is so rare in the industry. I train at one of the biggest places in the UK and there are no cameras in any of the arenas.

You mis-quoted me in the final paragraph. I did not say that there was anything, "suspicious about having no videoing policies in place." I did say that I am surprised. Which I am. If a riding school invites a group of children onto the premises for an organised activity, led by an activity leader, then the leader sees that videoing regularly takes place without consent of all parties, suspects it is for the purpose of social media, yet does nothing to control the videoing or what happens to it, then I AM surprised. I am surprised simply because I am immersed in the safeguarding culture, and there is precious little going on in that situation.

Precious little may be going on BUT if you have foster kids, or kids in care, or even just difficult family set ups, it is easier and safer all round for a centre to just say please no videoing/filming. Also it means you dont have six parents hanging over the arena fence getting in the way. We even had issues in my last job where parents were interrupting the instructor to get them to move, because they were 'ruining the shot'. Imagine having to monitor that for eight hours a day across three arenas, or even more in the larger centres. Also had one dad who thought filming via drone was a good idea... Then there's the dads who turn up to 'just test the kit out' and they pull out a Daily Mail eske 200mm lens. It can really unsettle some parents.

I used to do a lot of the marketing content and during a ten week summer holiday period you had to be so careful not to feature any children who were on the no photos/videos list. It was sometimes easier not to take photos of entire days, because of the paperwork and issues involved. We had to go by the parents' wishes at the end of the day, meaning sadly some kids never got group photos - we were unable to do because of the duty of care we had to all our clients. The issues faced run so much deeper than 'what are you trying to hide/oh well it's just six eight year olds doing pole work'.

I did say I would be suspicious if a private lesson could not be filmed. Being filmed as an instructor in the leisure/pleasure/sporting industry does tend to come with the territory these days. The world has changed. I would understand totally if an instructor said they didn't want to be on social media, and would expect the person filming to be bound by that. But, if filming was banned altogether for my own private lesson, I would wonder why. I have been to many top trainers, none have refused to be videoed.

As for someone giving the reason it should not be allowed, because they are only walking and trotting, and that is boring... well, I do wonder why people teach. I can find a total lesson in walk to be fascinating. Even if I did not, personally, find a particular lesson fascinating to watch, I can remember back to when a ride on a dusty school horse was the absolute highlight of my week, and I would replay the lesson over and over I my head. If only video was around then. I think there is a certain amount of not walking in the shoes of the people who are paying for the lessons.

None of my trainers when I have paid for a lesson has ever expressed the opinion that my lessons are too boring to film anyway. If they ever did, I would think they should look to their training technique.

Those are seperate arguments that do not relate to safeguarding. A 12 year old does not need their entire 1hr group lesson being filmed. An adult in a private perhaps training for something is a whole other kettle of fish. I have never known/heard of someone banning a private lesson being videoed.

 

[teapot]

This is going to be hash but I pretty sure that something is wrong in the riding school if you’re worried about being sued . Probably unsuitable horses or not proper safety procedures insurance should cover it anyway. I can understand people not want to be filmed but I feel like there is a another reason than just not wanting to be filmed.

It depends - I'm careful which bits of my lessons I whack on instagram because of the multitude of nicknames my coach has for me. To someone not in the know it could come across as me being insulted every five minutes and in turn do some reputational damage.

The other issue especially for perhaps kids on loaned ponies or liveries is you don't want videos of them doing chase me charlie/falling off/having stop after stop be seen by other impressional kids, or parents. 'Why isn't my child jumping 1m if that one is' 'that poor pony stopping at the fence' 'who's supervising' blah blah blah. Social media has a LOT to answer for in this respect and unfortunately riding schools have had to come down a bit tougher, both to protect their clients but their own businesses. 99% of the time everything would and will be above board, but you have to factor in the what ifs especially when anything related to horses can and is taken out of context.

 

[McGrools]

Thanks teapot for your in depth responses, very much appreciated. I have whole groups of teenagers who create tik tok videos all the time. You are correct that they post everything online nowadays. They deliberately want to film ‘fails’ to post to shiteventersunite! Lol! That, i dont mind as i know them all well. And they are filming themselves.

Red- there is only so much you can do to make a lesson interesting for a young child who is not remotely interested in learning to ride and is only there cos the parent wants new content for facebook! these are not repeat customers just one off ‘i’m bored, lets stick child on a pony and film it’
i have literally had a group of teenagers turn up as a one off for a lesson, dolled up to the nines, never sat on a horse before, completely inappropriate clothing, (think high heeled boots) and all they came for was to pose for photos whilst sat aboard! Cos they needed a new instagram story. I kid you not.
spirit 2021, we are not remotely worried about being sued as the riding school experience has become so risk averse in this age that you are lucky if you ever get to approach a 10cm crosspole. Sadly entirely fuelled by the ‘sue culture’

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

If I were running this RS, I would have signs everywhere, saying - Safeguarding Children Policy - no filming allowed, except with written permission from the Manager. Schools simply do not allow it, why should you. But the staff will need to be very proactive, phones left in a named bag with the instructor, or similar arrangement. Again, schools do it.

 

[exracehorse]

We were not allowed to video the school productions. At my son’s primary school. Surely it should be the same for those having a lesson. Especially minors.

 

[Red-1]

Red- there is only so much you can do to make a lesson interesting for a young child who is not remotely interested in learning to ride and is only there cos the parent wants new content for facebook! these are not repeat customers just one off ‘i’m bored, lets stick child on a pony and film it’
i have literally had a group of teenagers turn up as a one off for a lesson, dolled up to the nines, never sat on a horse before, completely inappropriate clothing, (think high heeled boots) and all they came for was to pose for photos whilst sat aboard! Cos they needed a new instagram story. I kid you not.

I had an emotional response to your post yesterday, and I think it is this part of your thinking that got under my skin.

I have done lessons in a riding school, and know some lessons come with not much horse interest attached. But, horses in a riding school are there for hirers, with you to safeguard them, and the children, and any people who come onto the premises.

I have done children's first lessons, and lessons for disabled people, who initially had no interest. I AM interested though, in people not just horses. So, the 'contract' is between me and the rider, whoever that is, with the horses as my willing helpers, partners in crime, magicians.

I entertain, if that is what is required. I often would say that sometimes I feel like a circus ringmaster, garnering support from the audience, whilst entertaining. I try to let the child who is not interested in on our secret. I try to teach them the intent and body language of the horse. To interest them in joining in a kindred spirit. I make it a personal 'game' to garner interest. Teaching in this instance isn't about sit up and put your heels down. The child is unlikely to be interested in that. I have equated stirrups to pedals, circle the pedals, the reins to handle bars, whatever to help the child to feel in power in the situation.

As for the teenagers, why on earth shouldn't they book to have an experience? As for their high heeled boots, well, I bet they don't HAVE the lace up, low heels that we were advised in our youth. It is up to the school to set what is acceptable footwear. FWIW, I wouldn't allow sharp high heels for the safety of all. But customers would be told that on booking. They sound like they had a great time, smiles and memories.

A riding school offers a service, they are making use (and paying for) that service. If they feel welcomed, valued and enraptured with something you share with them, they may come back.

A friend and I booked to go sailing for an hour. We turned up in what we had. We laughed so hard we nearly wet ourselves. The road rocked, we shrieked. The video went on social media. If the trainer had been skilled enough, he *may* have encouraged a new passion. We have enough £ to make that happen. If he had taught us the intracacies of the wind, the pull of the water, the wind, we may have been more interested. We were actually disappointed not to be enraptured. But, he rolled his eyes (metaphorically - and perhaps physically behind our backs) we laughed, had nice photos, hilarious videos.... and didn't go back!

I guess he would have looked down on us, and that didn't feel great.

I used to do experience days/ half days / hours in a stable yard. Pure entertainment and hoping to capture someone's passion. I loved the days with groups of people with disabilities communication difficulties / non typical learning. They stretched me to teach, whilst being that ringmaster entertainer. Evert person lives a different life, sees the world through a different lens. I love to help them to have the horses share their secrets.

 

[McGrools]

Red, i am a good teacher, i have many repeat clients, but i do prefer to teach people who are interesting in riding maybe just personal preference. I bust a gut in all this dire weather ( no indoor school) for hours upon end.
It is just a tad soul destroying when there is nothing coming back in the other direction.
It sounds like you have more energy than me. Well done. Maybe i am getting a bit too old and weary for this game. The weather this week is just about finishing me off.