levantosh
Well-Known Member
Does anyone have any foals by Vivaldi ( Krack C x Jass) Pics would be nice too and what do you think of him as a stallion??
Vivaldi
- Thread starter levantosh
- Start date
_jetset_
Well-Known Member
Please be careful using frozen semen from him!
levantosh
Well-Known Member
Why is that Jetset?
PS I love the 3rd horse in your sig.
PS I love the 3rd horse in your sig.
Faberge
Well-Known Member
I have heard very good things about his foals and think he is a stunning stallion. Not heard anything about semen quality but he does have foals on the ground so can't be all that bad!
markvannunen
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Please be careful using frozen semen from him!
[/ QUOTE ]
I would be very carefull with this announcements.
There was a topic in the USA where breeders were complaining about the quality of his semen. As I am in Holland, and I know the owner, I have asked breeders to PM me how many straws they used and the numbers of the batches that were used each insemination. I know the center that did the freezing has asked the same question.
Quess how many answers I got? None....and the freezing center also not, it says enough for me.
Breeders and/or distributors are not inseminating the semen the right way or use less straws then required.
Please be careful using frozen semen from him!
[/ QUOTE ]
I would be very carefull with this announcements.
There was a topic in the USA where breeders were complaining about the quality of his semen. As I am in Holland, and I know the owner, I have asked breeders to PM me how many straws they used and the numbers of the batches that were used each insemination. I know the center that did the freezing has asked the same question.
Quess how many answers I got? None....and the freezing center also not, it says enough for me.
Breeders and/or distributors are not inseminating the semen the right way or use less straws then required.
nomis
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Please be careful using frozen semen from him!
[/ QUOTE ]
I would be very carefull with this announcements.
There was a topic in the USA where breeders were complaining about the quality of his semen. As I am in Holland, and I know the owner, I have asked breeders to PM me how many straws they used and the numbers of the batches that were used each insemination. I know the center that did the freezing has asked the same question.
Quess how many answers I got? None....and the freezing center also not, it says enough for me.
Breeders and/or distributors are not inseminating the semen the right way or use less straws then required.
[/ QUOTE ]
As consumers, the above people have every right to complain if they have not received a good service. They can do that in any way they wish.
Now whether the frozen semen for Vivaldi was direct from the Stud itself, or via a semen agent, is really none of your business because I cannot see where you come into this equation.
If people are not happy with the quality of frozen semen then it is up to them or their vets to say this direct to the stud or semen agents.
You have no connection to Vivaldi that I can see, so why is this any of your business what people say or do?
[ QUOTE ]
Breeders and/or distributors are not inseminating the semen the right way or use less straws then required.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a sweeping statement. Unless you are standing beside each mare insemination,how on earth do you know this? Quite simply, you dont.
[ QUOTE ]
Please be careful using frozen semen from him!
[/ QUOTE ]
I would be very carefull with this announcements.
There was a topic in the USA where breeders were complaining about the quality of his semen. As I am in Holland, and I know the owner, I have asked breeders to PM me how many straws they used and the numbers of the batches that were used each insemination. I know the center that did the freezing has asked the same question.
Quess how many answers I got? None....and the freezing center also not, it says enough for me.
Breeders and/or distributors are not inseminating the semen the right way or use less straws then required.
[/ QUOTE ]
As consumers, the above people have every right to complain if they have not received a good service. They can do that in any way they wish.
Now whether the frozen semen for Vivaldi was direct from the Stud itself, or via a semen agent, is really none of your business because I cannot see where you come into this equation.
If people are not happy with the quality of frozen semen then it is up to them or their vets to say this direct to the stud or semen agents.
You have no connection to Vivaldi that I can see, so why is this any of your business what people say or do?
[ QUOTE ]
Breeders and/or distributors are not inseminating the semen the right way or use less straws then required.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a sweeping statement. Unless you are standing beside each mare insemination,how on earth do you know this? Quite simply, you dont.
_jetset_
Well-Known Member
I stick to what I have said because I have had direct involvement with the semen and have lost a substantial amount of money as a result. I have also received some refund too for more than one dose as have other users of this forum.
The chilled is producing pregnancies so if you can get this, the stallion is a stunning one and has some beautiful foals on the floor.
This year was his first year frozen, so no foals on the floor from this.
I am in contact with buyers in the US too so feel I have quite a good grasp of the situation.
The chilled is producing pregnancies so if you can get this, the stallion is a stunning one and has some beautiful foals on the floor.
This year was his first year frozen, so no foals on the floor from this.
I am in contact with buyers in the US too so feel I have quite a good grasp of the situation.
lollypops
Member
Vivaldi Fabulous stallion , but there are problems with his frozen semen, fertility issues definatly , i would not use frozen, and chilled will be very difficult to get hold off i suspect, have lost a lot off money trying to get my elite mare in foal to him, as have alot off other breeders! this season.
Bearskin
Well-Known Member
A Vivaldi son, named Vitalis, was reserve champion of this year's westfalian stallion licensing.
magic104
Well-Known Member
Hi as you know the owner perhaps he has not been informed of the issue over frozen seaman from his stallion? Though this seems strange seeing as it does not appear to be a secret amongst breeders that there were issues. Jetsets comments are factual for her & others so dont see what the owner can do about it except address the situation & if this stallion cannot be frozen then stick to chilled/fresh.
Would you be happy to find out after the event that breeders had problems with a stallion? I know that I would be pig sick if I had wasted money only to find that a forum like this could have prevented it.
Would you be happy to find out after the event that breeders had problems with a stallion? I know that I would be pig sick if I had wasted money only to find that a forum like this could have prevented it.
markvannunen
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Hi as you know the owner perhaps he has not been informed of the issue over frozen seaman from his stallion? Though this seems strange seeing as it does not appear to be a secret amongst breeders that there were issues. Jetsets comments are factual for her & others so dont see what the owner can do about it except address the situation & if this stallion cannot be frozen then stick to chilled/fresh.
Would you be happy to find out after the event that breeders had problems with a stallion? I know that I would be pig sick if I had wasted money only to find that a forum like this could have prevented it.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is how it went. I have read about the frozen semen issues on chronicleforums. They day after I was at the freezing center and have talked to the guy who does the freezing and distribution. He showed me some emails where he asks about the batch numbers that were used each insemination so he could find out where the problem was. He did not get any answer on that. I offered him to pop the question directly to the breeders on chronicleforums and I did. See this post:http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4313592&highlight=janderegelaar#post4313592
I never had any reply on my question. So, how can a problem be solved if there is no coöperation?
Edit: yes, if I can, I will help.
Hi as you know the owner perhaps he has not been informed of the issue over frozen seaman from his stallion? Though this seems strange seeing as it does not appear to be a secret amongst breeders that there were issues. Jetsets comments are factual for her & others so dont see what the owner can do about it except address the situation & if this stallion cannot be frozen then stick to chilled/fresh.
Would you be happy to find out after the event that breeders had problems with a stallion? I know that I would be pig sick if I had wasted money only to find that a forum like this could have prevented it.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is how it went. I have read about the frozen semen issues on chronicleforums. They day after I was at the freezing center and have talked to the guy who does the freezing and distribution. He showed me some emails where he asks about the batch numbers that were used each insemination so he could find out where the problem was. He did not get any answer on that. I offered him to pop the question directly to the breeders on chronicleforums and I did. See this post:http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4313592&highlight=janderegelaar#post4313592
I never had any reply on my question. So, how can a problem be solved if there is no coöperation?
Edit: yes, if I can, I will help.
lollypops
Member
In response to your comment regarding quality off semen, when buying frozen semen from a third party you are in there hands , it should be up to the stallion owner to check the fertility off there stallions semen not just under a micro-scope but foals on the ground before marketing it, They are the ones making a lot off money from us breeders who when using frozen semen here in the uk have absolutely no comeback or refund if there mare not in foal to that stallion, there are not many people prepared to gamble on average over 1,500 , for a decent Stallion it is a totally different ball game here in the uk when using frozen semen.
It is a known fact that semen will loose a high percentage off mobility when frozen, there is not much point putting semen in a mare when it is under 50% fertility, you have to have a very fertile stallion to freeze well. The semen has to be stored correctly, and thawed correctly, it may be good when collected but your in the hands off the gods as to wheather you will have a succesfull pregnancy.
If in doubht use chilled.and check availability as the german studs will put there home clients before any breeder in the uk,and tell you its available when its not.
It is a known fact that semen will loose a high percentage off mobility when frozen, there is not much point putting semen in a mare when it is under 50% fertility, you have to have a very fertile stallion to freeze well. The semen has to be stored correctly, and thawed correctly, it may be good when collected but your in the hands off the gods as to wheather you will have a succesfull pregnancy.
If in doubht use chilled.and check availability as the german studs will put there home clients before any breeder in the uk,and tell you its available when its not.
_jetset_
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi as you know the owner perhaps he has not been informed of the issue over frozen seaman from his stallion? Though this seems strange seeing as it does not appear to be a secret amongst breeders that there were issues. Jetsets comments are factual for her & others so dont see what the owner can do about it except address the situation & if this stallion cannot be frozen then stick to chilled/fresh.
Would you be happy to find out after the event that breeders had problems with a stallion? I know that I would be pig sick if I had wasted money only to find that a forum like this could have prevented it.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is how it went. I have read about the frozen semen issues on chronicleforums. They day after I was at the freezing center and have talked to the guy who does the freezing and distribution. He showed me some emails where he asks about the batch numbers that were used each insemination so he could find out where the problem was. He did not get any answer on that. I offered him to pop the question directly to the breeders on chronicleforums and I did. See this post:http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4313592&highlight=janderegelaar#post4313592
I never had any reply on my question. So, how can a problem be solved if there is no coöperation?
Edit: yes, if I can, I will help.
[/ QUOTE ]
The breeding station has all the information, and the straws returned that were not used through the agent (also the information of nine other clients too). I have seen the emails that have been passed from the agent to the station so I am aware of what the situation is.
And as someone else has said, surely it is better for potential breeders to know the experiences of other. His chilled is good quailty and there was some available this year I believe so well worth trying. However having lost almost £2,000 on the frozen, I am afraid I will warn people off just as I would anything that had caused me to lose this amount of money.
[ QUOTE ]
Hi as you know the owner perhaps he has not been informed of the issue over frozen seaman from his stallion? Though this seems strange seeing as it does not appear to be a secret amongst breeders that there were issues. Jetsets comments are factual for her & others so dont see what the owner can do about it except address the situation & if this stallion cannot be frozen then stick to chilled/fresh.
Would you be happy to find out after the event that breeders had problems with a stallion? I know that I would be pig sick if I had wasted money only to find that a forum like this could have prevented it.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is how it went. I have read about the frozen semen issues on chronicleforums. They day after I was at the freezing center and have talked to the guy who does the freezing and distribution. He showed me some emails where he asks about the batch numbers that were used each insemination so he could find out where the problem was. He did not get any answer on that. I offered him to pop the question directly to the breeders on chronicleforums and I did. See this post:http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4313592&highlight=janderegelaar#post4313592
I never had any reply on my question. So, how can a problem be solved if there is no coöperation?
Edit: yes, if I can, I will help.
[/ QUOTE ]
The breeding station has all the information, and the straws returned that were not used through the agent (also the information of nine other clients too). I have seen the emails that have been passed from the agent to the station so I am aware of what the situation is.
And as someone else has said, surely it is better for potential breeders to know the experiences of other. His chilled is good quailty and there was some available this year I believe so well worth trying. However having lost almost £2,000 on the frozen, I am afraid I will warn people off just as I would anything that had caused me to lose this amount of money.
markvannunen
Well-Known Member
You are absolutely right with warning, I would have done the same from your point of view. Strange part is only, in Holland is the same frozen semen used and we have pregnancies.
AndyPandy
Well-Known Member
For reference re: frozen semen & fertility (reposted from our breeding FAQ)
How do I know if the frozen semen I am using is fertile?
The only way to be certain if it is adequately fertile, is if mares bred to the same batch of frozen have become pregnant after 3 cycles or less.
35%+ progressive motility after thawing with good velocity is a good indicator that the semen has the potential to be fertile, as do positive results from other lab tests such as mitochondrial function, membrane integrity and chromatin assays. However, it is important to realise that, at the time of writing this, laboratory tests cannot predict the fertility of frozen semen.
The frozen semen Im using passes minimum motility standards. Does that mean it is fertile?
35%+ progressive motility after thawing with good velocity is a good indicator that the semen has the potential to be fertile, as do positive results from other lab tests such as mitochondrial function, membrane integrity and chromatin assays. However, it is important to realise that, at the time of writing this, laboratory tests cannot predict the fertility of frozen semen.
The only way to be certain if it is adequately fertile, is if mares bred to the same batch of frozen have become pregnant after 3 cycles or less.
How do I know if the frozen semen I am using is fertile?
The only way to be certain if it is adequately fertile, is if mares bred to the same batch of frozen have become pregnant after 3 cycles or less.
35%+ progressive motility after thawing with good velocity is a good indicator that the semen has the potential to be fertile, as do positive results from other lab tests such as mitochondrial function, membrane integrity and chromatin assays. However, it is important to realise that, at the time of writing this, laboratory tests cannot predict the fertility of frozen semen.
The frozen semen Im using passes minimum motility standards. Does that mean it is fertile?
35%+ progressive motility after thawing with good velocity is a good indicator that the semen has the potential to be fertile, as do positive results from other lab tests such as mitochondrial function, membrane integrity and chromatin assays. However, it is important to realise that, at the time of writing this, laboratory tests cannot predict the fertility of frozen semen.
The only way to be certain if it is adequately fertile, is if mares bred to the same batch of frozen have become pregnant after 3 cycles or less.
_jetset_
Well-Known Member
I would be interested to know how many positive pregnancies have come from frozen full stop. So far, from the US figures (and I do have these) and the UK ones I have not known one yet.
Maggie2
Well-Known Member
Only person I know who used frozen had no pregnancy, mare went in foal to one AI'ing with a different stallion.
levantosh
Well-Known Member
Hi everyone thanks for the replies, I am very greatfull to _Jetset_ for bringing up the issue of Vivaldi's frozen semen. As said above I would be pig sick if I had lost a lot of money using frozen semen for this stallion to later find out there was a forum like this warning people about semen issues.
I as a UK breeder think it is ALL stallion owners/agents responsibility to inform mare owners of potential problems when using different types of semen, if for example there are no pregnancies in the UK when using frozen semen from a certain stallion then this needs to be made public and they should not advertise frozen semen from that stallion.
I as a UK breeder think it is ALL stallion owners/agents responsibility to inform mare owners of potential problems when using different types of semen, if for example there are no pregnancies in the UK when using frozen semen from a certain stallion then this needs to be made public and they should not advertise frozen semen from that stallion.
AndyPandy
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I as a UK breeder think it is ALL stallion owners/agents responsibility to inform mare owners of potential problems when using different types of semen, if for example there are no pregnancies in the UK when using frozen semen from a certain stallion then this needs to be made public and they should not advertise frozen semen from that stallion.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a bit of a difficult one. While I completely agree that this should be the case (for instance, we will not release frozen semen for public use until it has produced its first pregnancy, and that pregnany is within 3 cycles or less), it can be difficult to manage.
The reason for this is that fertility is down to 3 factors:
1) Fertility of the semen
2) Fertility of the mare
3) Actions of those handling the semen, and the inseminating vet
Because of a lack of education (among other factors) frozen semen is often used inappropriately - on mares who are unproven in terms of fertility, too old, or susceptible to delayed uterine clearance (DUC) issues - However this should be explained by the person distributing the frozen semen.
But perhaps most importantly a worrying number of vets and technicians do not really know how to handle, or time the insemination of, frozen semen. This can mean that perfectly fertile frozen semen can appear to have dreadful pregnancy rates simply because of the way it is used.
I as a UK breeder think it is ALL stallion owners/agents responsibility to inform mare owners of potential problems when using different types of semen, if for example there are no pregnancies in the UK when using frozen semen from a certain stallion then this needs to be made public and they should not advertise frozen semen from that stallion.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a bit of a difficult one. While I completely agree that this should be the case (for instance, we will not release frozen semen for public use until it has produced its first pregnancy, and that pregnany is within 3 cycles or less), it can be difficult to manage.
The reason for this is that fertility is down to 3 factors:
1) Fertility of the semen
2) Fertility of the mare
3) Actions of those handling the semen, and the inseminating vet
Because of a lack of education (among other factors) frozen semen is often used inappropriately - on mares who are unproven in terms of fertility, too old, or susceptible to delayed uterine clearance (DUC) issues - However this should be explained by the person distributing the frozen semen.
But perhaps most importantly a worrying number of vets and technicians do not really know how to handle, or time the insemination of, frozen semen. This can mean that perfectly fertile frozen semen can appear to have dreadful pregnancy rates simply because of the way it is used.
levantosh
Well-Known Member
Totally agree AndyPandy, I think (and most people already do) is the obvious when it comes to breeding : use good vets/techs always have mares checked etc. I think your protical of frozen semen should be enforced on other practices, ensuring mare owners get what they pay for good quality semen which has had results before being sold.
Alec Swan
Well-Known Member
Whilst I'm replying, specifically to Andypandy, and whilst bowing to his considerable equine reproductive experience, I would point out that a few weeks ago I offered a thread which proposed that mare owners offer stallion owners a NFNF deal, with a 25% retention in the event that a mare failed to hold to service.
Having just read a posting which relayed the tale of an abandoned £2k stud fee, would it not have been better to have paid £500 (the 25% retention) and walked away?
The questions of stud fees, agreements and specifically, responsibilities, really do need to be addressed. There are WITHOUT QUESTION, many stallion owners who have and accept a moral responsibility towards their customer. There are also many who don't.
In private postings I could, but wont, relay to you tales of semen shipped to the UK, from Continental stallion owners, and the abandoned fees have occasionally been in the region of £10k!!
£2k? you got away lightly.
As an interesting aside, and I have to tell you that I've abandoned my bright idea, I would also say that I've been advised that there are those stallion owners who have faced my suggestions, seen the justification, contained within my argument, and are now giving serious consideration to offering their own horses along the idea of my proposed terms, and privately too!
I would be particularly interested to hear from those who can speak with authority, and give an honest opinion as to the likely chances of conception from, as a base line a natural covering, and then the chances of the same thing from chilled and then frozen semen.
Alec.
Having just read a posting which relayed the tale of an abandoned £2k stud fee, would it not have been better to have paid £500 (the 25% retention) and walked away?
The questions of stud fees, agreements and specifically, responsibilities, really do need to be addressed. There are WITHOUT QUESTION, many stallion owners who have and accept a moral responsibility towards their customer. There are also many who don't.
In private postings I could, but wont, relay to you tales of semen shipped to the UK, from Continental stallion owners, and the abandoned fees have occasionally been in the region of £10k!!
£2k? you got away lightly.
As an interesting aside, and I have to tell you that I've abandoned my bright idea, I would also say that I've been advised that there are those stallion owners who have faced my suggestions, seen the justification, contained within my argument, and are now giving serious consideration to offering their own horses along the idea of my proposed terms, and privately too!
I would be particularly interested to hear from those who can speak with authority, and give an honest opinion as to the likely chances of conception from, as a base line a natural covering, and then the chances of the same thing from chilled and then frozen semen.
Alec.
_jetset_
Well-Known Member
I completely agree with AndyPandy, however as others know there was a 'known' issue with the frozen hence why I contacted the agent (it was brought to my attenton originally on this very forum!)
And for the record, the mare had taken every time first time with both chilled and frozen prior to the Vivaldi semen being used. I then used Jazz frozen semen and she took first time with this and has a 100 day positive scan currently.
The progressive motility of the Vivaldi semen was 'adequate' in most cases I have been presented with (including my own experience) so very much back up what AndyPandy has said about progressive motility not meaning fertility.
And for the record, the mare had taken every time first time with both chilled and frozen prior to the Vivaldi semen being used. I then used Jazz frozen semen and she took first time with this and has a 100 day positive scan currently.
The progressive motility of the Vivaldi semen was 'adequate' in most cases I have been presented with (including my own experience) so very much back up what AndyPandy has said about progressive motility not meaning fertility.
Fahrenheit
Well-Known Member
I haven't been around for a few days but I also have been involved with Vivaldi semen fiasco... I won't use him again and I will not use the agent again... the mare I used Vivaldi on then took first time with a different stallion, also I am still waiting for my covering certificate for the other stallion I used from this agent and I have been told by the semen agent that there is one pregnancy with Vivaldi in the UK out of 9 mares (not a great number of mares I know) but I contacted the USA agent and at the time I contacted them, there had been no confirmed pregnancies with Vivaldi frozen, over 30 mares, I have the emails to confirm this is what was said
The Vivaldi semen that wasn't used was collected back by the agent and the only choice I (and I know others were given) were to be given credit for the returned doses that had to go against buying more semen from another stallion, hence why I have semen stored at Willesley that I didn't really want to buy but it was that or lose more money! So I know what stallion I will be using in 2010!!
The Vivaldi semen that wasn't used was collected back by the agent and the only choice I (and I know others were given) were to be given credit for the returned doses that had to go against buying more semen from another stallion, hence why I have semen stored at Willesley that I didn't really want to buy but it was that or lose more money! So I know what stallion I will be using in 2010!!
cocktail
Member
Sorry everybody I think I am the "only" one with a Vivaldi foal this year in the UK....He is absolutely fantastic. Tall leggy superb front and moves through his whole body also has a really sweet temperament.
I am trying again with Vivaldi this year and will let you know. If I had a barren mare I would seriously consider sending the mare to The Netherlands to be covered....the vet and keep rates are much cheaper than over here!
www.activeequestrian.com for photo!
I am trying again with Vivaldi this year and will let you know. If I had a barren mare I would seriously consider sending the mare to The Netherlands to be covered....the vet and keep rates are much cheaper than over here!
www.activeequestrian.com for photo!
_jetset_
Well-Known Member
Cocktail... Your boy is simply stunning and he makes me so so green eyed 
I would love to use Vivaldi on my Houston mare as all her full sisters over in holland have Vivaldi babies and they are simply stunning!
I would love to use Vivaldi on my Houston mare as all her full sisters over in holland have Vivaldi babies and they are simply stunning!
cocktail
Member
thank you jetset. did you get her in foal last year? If not why not think of sending her to Holland? it does add £500 in travelling costs but as I say vet costs etc much cheaper over there with the added benefit of chilled semen!!
_jetset_
Well-Known Member
No, I only bought her this year... The mare I was putting in foal was a Weltmeyer mare who obviously did not take so we ended up using a different stallion and she is currently due 17th June.
All three of her full sisters in Holland have had Vivaldi babies... I am besotted with them!
This is one of the foals by him out of Wolana: http://www.staldijkstra.nl/dolana.html
And this is out of Arlana (also pictured), who is the mare before mine: http://www.staldijkstra.nl/elana.html
All three of her full sisters in Holland have had Vivaldi babies... I am besotted with them!
This is one of the foals by him out of Wolana: http://www.staldijkstra.nl/dolana.html
And this is out of Arlana (also pictured), who is the mare before mine: http://www.staldijkstra.nl/elana.html
cocktail
Member
Lovely....he does throw his ears!!
Who is she due to this year?
Who is she due to this year?
blackberry2
New User
cocktail
Member
Ok guys an update.
I put 2 mares to Vivaldi this year 1 that took last year and the another Fidermark mare who is a really easy breeder. Both with chilled and Frozen.
Guess what NO pregnancies. I decided to stop with the one mare that took first time to him last year as was getting too late in the season. The other mare went to De Niro and was pregnant first time!!!
I put 2 mares to Vivaldi this year 1 that took last year and the another Fidermark mare who is a really easy breeder. Both with chilled and Frozen.
Guess what NO pregnancies. I decided to stop with the one mare that took first time to him last year as was getting too late in the season. The other mare went to De Niro and was pregnant first time!!!