Warning: Sensitive Question re: pts

[sula]

I hope it`s alright to post this in here. I know this is a non-horse section but I have posted here because it`s private. If it`s not alright maybe TFC can move it for me. The warning is in the title.

I have seen many threads on here and read various articles regarding the subject of pts and the pros and cons of the two primary methods ie injection or bullet. My own horse was pts a few months ago by lethal injection and it was just as I had expected it to be, devastatingly sad but not too traumatic.

Recently a friend had her horse pts by bullet and I stood with the lovely horse throughout as the owner was unable to. The act itself was very quick and very final but I was alarmed that there was so much blood. Bright red arterial blood pumped out of the nose, mouth and bullet wound. I am familiar enough with the throes of death but I never expected this. I may have thought there would be some oozing around the wound but have never read of anything like this happening. I was just so glad the owner didn`t see. I asked if it was normal for there to be this amount of blood and was told that it was. My cattle-farming background husband says that he has never experienced this when a cow or similar has had to be despatched by bullet.

Has anyone else experienced this? I don`t want anyone to post details as it is a sensitive subject which some will find distressing but I suppose I am looking for an answer to the question I know the owner will ask eventually: is it normal for there to be so much blood with this method of pts?

I feel honoured and privileged to have been trusted with this final act of bravery on my friend`s part and the ultimate kindness for her treasured horse but I keep reliving that final scene and would just, I suppose, appreciate some gentle reassurance and a maybe a bit of a hug because, well, it was really hard.

 

[Sheep]

Big hugs, you did something amazing for your friend and their horse, be proud of yourself.

I have not seen a horse pts by this method myself however I have seen one shortly afterwards and there was a reasonable amount of blood, however it was a racehorse who had broken a leg during a race so I guess adrenaline and heart rate were high.

Sorry for you and your friends losses. X

 

[MissTyc]

Yes there can be a LOT of blood! On my old yard horses were never shot in the school, always on grass, out of the way, and then earth shovelled over the area.
When my friend had her mare shot, she had to have it done near a footpath where people might walk (only place the pony could be collected) - it was quick, efficient, and then before she'd even hit the ground, the knackerman put a bag over her face to catch the blood so that nobody walking by would freak out. That time there was a lot of blood. I'd never seen as much either but the knackerman said it was normal and I have no reason to disbelieve him.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

OP, no it is not normal BUT it can happen on occasions.
I dont know why. No doubt someone can answer the question in a concise way.

I've held a fair few over the years (and will be doing so for an old trouper tomorrow).

I've seen a couple really bleed & most others not really at all, this when the same chap has done the deed.

Usually I would recco that anyone using this method has a full water bucket full of earth so this can quickly cover the area after the equine has been removed.

Often though, a very experienced knackerman will have a large plastic sack and twine to hand, to pull over the desceased head almost as soon as it has hit the floor, thus saving owner/handler the possible trauma if there is a major bleed.

Well done to you for helping your friend, its not an easy thing to do x

 

[milliepops]

Yes, the same as above, I've seen some go with almost no bleeding and some that bled everywhere. Where I worked we used to have them shot over a concrete yard drain that we could wash and sweep out to the field - too many footpaths and public access to do them in the field and that was the only private area.
Well done for remaining calm and strong OP, it is the final act of kindness and the horse would have known no distress.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I hope it`s alright to post this in here. I know this is a non-horse section but I have posted here because it`s private. If it`s not alright maybe TFC can move it for me. The warning is in the title.

I have seen many threads on here and read various articles regarding the subject of pts and the pros and cons of the two primary methods ie injection or bullet. My own horse was pts a few months ago by lethal injection and it was just as I had expected it to be, devastatingly sad but not too traumatic.

Recently a friend had her horse pts by bullet and I stood with the lovely horse throughout as the owner was unable to. The act itself was very quick and very final but I was alarmed that there was so much blood. Bright red arterial blood pumped out of the nose, mouth and bullet wound. I am familiar enough with the throes of death but I never expected this. I may have thought there would be some oozing around the wound but have never read of anything like this happening. I was just so glad the owner didn`t see. I asked if it was normal for there to be this amount of blood and was told that it was. My cattle-farming background husband says that he has never experienced this when a cow or similar has had to be despatched by bullet.

Has anyone else experienced this? I don`t want anyone to post details as it is a sensitive subject which some will find distressing but I suppose I am looking for an answer to the question I know the owner will ask eventually: is it normal for there to be so much blood with this method of pts?

I feel honoured and privileged to have been trusted with this final act of bravery on my friend`s part and the ultimate kindness for her treasured horse but I keep reliving that final scene and would just, I suppose, appreciate some gentle reassurance and a maybe a bit of a hug because, well, it was really hard.

I have seen this over and over and worst - My beloved donkey was pts by injection last week and RVC told me it was so peaceful. She is the only one I did not stay with as I think the protocol up there does not allow this. This in turn is hard as I have always stayed with mine right to the end.



I too am glad the owner did not see this but equally sad you had to and it effected you. Well done doing this for your friend and standing in for her at this horrid time... hugs

 

[Goldenstar]

It's perfectly normal and I have seen it several times .

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I have seen clean ones and messy ones. I hate holding them for the bullet and I avoid it if I can but I will do it if I have to.

99% of the time it goes without hitch.

The worst one I had I was so glad I wasn't holding. I had walked away, next thing the horse comes bolting back round the corner and into the barn so I go to catch him thinking not much of it - until I got to the other side of him. The poor critter had moved his head at the very last second and the bolt had taken the front of his eyeball out. We then had to twitch and blindfold him and I felt so incredibly bad for him. What made it worse for me is knowing that he was a perfectly healty young horse but he was dangerous to ride. If he didn't want to do something he would throw himself over backwards so yes. The deed did need done and at least the owner took responsibilty instead of trying to palm him.off onto someone else.

I have my own done by injection. If I had to have a bullet I would sedate first because I never, ever want to see that again.

 

[Goldenstar]

I usually give my own a little sedation if I am at all worried they might be fractious .

 

[Clodagh]

Yes you can get a lot of blood, it is nothing to worry about.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

A truly awful subject this, but good to talk about it and thus be prepared for whatever happens "on the day".

Almost exactly ten years ago I had my old boy PTS by lethal injection, it was very peaceful and calm and I was happy it was a good way for him to go.

Don't know what I shall do with the two I've got: one is 19 and the other is 17 - so yes whilst it is at the back of my mind it hopefully will be a good few years yet......

The best PTS I ever knew about was a childhood friend whose father was a MFH. When the time came for her pony to have to be despatched they just led it up to the stable block in earshot of where the hounds were kept, and had a good old blow on the horn......... and at that precise moment Did The Deed. What better and more fantastic way for a hunting pony to go - I've always remembered that.

 

[flaxen]

We regularly used free bullet as a method of euthanasia at work. We always sedated first for safety reasons. Sometimes there was lots of blood and sometimes very little. We always had a clinical waste bag ready to put over the horses head once it was down to collect what ever blood there was. We used to do them on grass but it was just too messy to clear up so changed to standing them on concrete as easier to wash away and for the knackerman to turn round to collect, as we were usually busy with other inpatients/ ops etc he would collect body and clean up afterwards. We sedated everything prior to euthanasia as safer.

 

[CBFan]

Sadly yes... I was also in a similar situation to you recently. Pony unfortunately had to be pts in her stable, collection hadn't been pre-arranged as it was an emergency... cue two hour wait for collection... I will never forget that clear up operation... something I couldn't let my friend do herself... Horrid, horrid, horrid.

Like others though, most situations I have known, the despatcher has put the deceased's head in a sack to minimise mess...

Big hugs xxx took me a while to get over it the whole thing...

 

[Christmas Crumpet]

Pretty revolting but we had an old horse put down at our old yard. Nothing too traumatic about it.

Whilst having supper later that night, the dog started retching and was violently sick under the dining room table. She had eaten all the congealed blood and was clearly feeling the ill effects afterwards. The carpet was never the same again. Therefore I can confirm that some horses bleed a great deal more than others when shot.

 

[Molly'sMama]

Any one know why it bleeds so much? My friend was upset after her horse was put down like this as she thought it meant the heart didn't stop immediately so it wasn't an instant death like she thought. :/

 

[Alec Swan]

The ideal bullet placement is when it enters the skull, passes through the brain, and then, assuming that the angle of entry was correct, so it will enter and become stationary, within the spinal column. Achieving such a shot isn't always a matter of course, and it isn't as simple to achieve as the few words above.

The brain of a horse, though relatively shallow, shouldn't be missed by a competent operator. Around the perfect target area, so the bullet as it enters has a certain degree of error which is permissible. Within that area, and if the bullet ruptures an artery, so the animal will bleed profusely when the main blood supply to the brain is ruptured. Most who are experienced will carry with them a large plastic feed bag, pass the horse's head in to it, and with luck, it will catch most of the blood.

I've attended at many such events, and have myself put down horses with a gun. I generally put my own horses down when the time comes, viewing it as a responsibility. I've yet to make a mistake or needed a second bullet, and the only pleasure for me is in knowing that the work has been carried out correctly and that the animal's demise was instant. It's always been my belief that the most important point is that the animal receives an instant end to its life, and though perhaps unsightly, the blood is of a lesser importance.

Generally, most who perform the final act for a horse, would prefer that the owners weren't present. A calm and peaceful end can be difficult to achieve when the owners are present, and when they will be understandably, and audibly distressed. Those owners who wish to be present and can stay calm, and I've had the bravest of the brave actually hold their horse on a lead rope, have my admiration. A calm and reassuring owner will generally pass that on to the animal, and assist in a peaceful and dignified end.

When horses bleed profusely then I tend to take the view that it was unavoidable, and that no amount of skill or experience will prevent the entering bullet from severing a main artery. With major arterial bleeding, it's a certainty that there can be no recovery, and apart from the fact that one needs to get busy with a broom and a hose, so it's almost to be preferred.

I understand how many find the sight of blood in large quantities, to be upsetting, but I'd liken it to eating a meal, and then dealing with the washing up in that it's a part of the package. I certainly don't find the sight of blood 'revolting'.

Alec.

 

[wkiwi]

I have had mine done using both methods, and also held numerous friends horses for them (I seem to be the one everyone calls in need). The amount of blood does vary depending on which blood vessels/tissue structures are damaged (as to whether the bleeding ends up internal or external) but you may find it reassuring to know that it doesn't relate to pain i.e. it is a usually a quick and painless end regardless of the amount of blood i.e. instant loss of consciousness.
I have had one of my horses react very badly to the injection (but this was some time ago and excitement like this is very rare with the more modern drugs) and held one pony that we blindfolded with a towel before it was pts by gunshot; it stood calmly whereas if a vet had come to inject it then it would have stressed and charged about as it was very needleshy and vet-shy.
Carolineb - don't you just love dogs and their 'presents'!

 

[sula]

Thank you all so very much for your kindness, reassurance and for sharing your stories - I really do appreciate you taking the time to reply on what is a very difficult and potentially distressing subject. Thank you so much!

It isn`t that I dislike the sight of blood it was more the sheer unexpected volume of it. I could clinically detach from what was happening and go into work mode and be satisfied that the deed was done efficiently and effectively while I spoke softly. Unfortunately, I was requested to lead the horse to the gate (and fortunately the lovely, lush, new grass which was enjoyed immensely by the horse) as this was easier for removal afterwards but this means that there will forever be that unavoidable spot where my friend`s beloved horse last stood; she cannot avoid it. I also wish she could have been spared the volume which, although covered with sawdust, was gelatinous and copious. I had been very direct in what she should expect and would willingly have cleaned up every last drop of it if she had only let me. But she wouldn`t and I wish so much I could have spared her that, too.

I never thought I could hold a horse in such circumstances and I`m not sure I would for anyone else but my friend`s beloved horse and my beautiful pony were fieldmates of old and I wanted to offer to stand with her if she couldn`t. She would never have asked me to, however hard it was for her. It truly was an honour and a privilege to be trusted so much.

I really do thank you all so much for replying; I was afraid no-one would because it is distressing/taboo/whatever. Were there to be another occasion at least I`ll know what to expect. I`m very calm and in control in situations like this but oh, today, I did feel so sad for this lovely horse and it did just hit me to know all too well what my lovely friend is going through.

Big hugs for those who have or who are facing the same decision. Xx

 

[3OldPonies]

Sula, I've been lurking on this thread, purely because I have no experience of the gun method. But I would like to thank you for bringing this issue into an open discussion as its not an easy subject to tackle. One thing about horsey people is that we are a pretty hardy breed, we have to be with the highs and lows of horsekeeping, so I'm not surprised at all that you have had a lot of replies. I'm sure that there are other lurkers out there, like me who have always wondered about blood loss, mine have both been injected when the time came, and I think you've made my mind up to stick with that unless there is no other choice - so your thread has been immensely useful as a source of otherwise not often talked about practical information.

I do hope that your friend is OK soon, losing a horse is so traumatic, whatever method is used, so please send her some big hugs from me - and there are lots for you too for being brave and talking about your experience.

 

[happyclappy]

I have had several ponies and donkey pts and each was by captive bolt. There was never any more than a small amount of blood around the hole. Very quick and will always be my choice. Few vets are qualified to do this and I am unsure if my latest vet will be able to do this when my mares time comes, which will probably be fairly soon (she has already defied all the odds and is still going strong).
I respect all those who make the decision sooner rather than later for the benefit of their beloved equine or other pets.

 

[Clodagh]

I have only held one, I had two done here for a friend, she bought them over in the lorry. One was a very difficult and spooky mare who didn't like strangers so I held her but was put off enough to ask my husband to hold the second one. He is not horsey, and has held all of mine while they have been done, it is hard to remain detached.
It is so quick, and although messy I much prefer it to the needdle which took ages.

 

[Addicted to Hunting]

Another one who has seen a few horses put down by this method, and each time there has been some blood, but they have 'gone' by the time they hit the floor. I would be fairly surprised if no blood from a cow but could comment.
I suppose one way to think of if, is a bit like a tap and hose, especially one of the pressure hoses, even once you turn of the tap, (so the heart) the pumping and flowing effect is till there and water still runs out of the hose for a bit, (so the blood). The horses heart is obviously a massive pump effect and some can bleed more than others, and heads have a lot of blood. It's a bit like the fact that most animals will look like they are going to the toilet, in reality they aren't but the body is relaxing, and some can still gasp and twitch, even though they aren't alive.
I haven't seen a horse done my injection but have seen some small animals and that is true with what ever way.

 

[sula]

3Old Ponies, thank you so much! I do hope this thread has been useful in enabling others to know a bit more about what to expect - it`s certainly helped me.

When my pony was pts following an accident I was very pragmatic about what needed to be done. It helped that I was at work at the time and came direct to the field whilst still in uniform - it helped to hide behind those navy threads. It helped, too, that I always knew what I would do in the worst case scenario so I just went through the motions of what I had already decided. I think this approach helped the yard owner and other liveries who were so upset and who never left my boy`s side, for which I will be forever grateful. They did all the right things and more besides.

Love has responsibilities. For me, part of that responsibility extended to what to do in the worst case scenario ahead of it happening (if ever it did). My friend took that responsibility to which enabled me to do the right thing too.

Thank you all so much for your reassurance and kind words - you`ve helped enormously!

 

[Yardbird]

I did read on another thread here some time ago that a horse with cushings will bleed more because of the tumour.

 

[Illusion100]

They sometimes bleed a lot from the entry wound and very quickly.

It can depend of the health/age of the horse, injury/illness, previous medication and angle of bullet/what structures it hits or subsequent damage from it's force.

Bullets don't always do the job intended/go where they are supposed to. I knew someone who'd been kneecapped but unfortunately, although the kneecappers weren't amateurs, the bullet deflected and travelled to the spine, instead of having a limp this guy never walked again.

Also remember going out with vets to do a death cert for insurance on a shot horse. It had already been dragged into transport trailer when we got there. It had been shot in the head alright but it wasn't dead. It was certainly brain damaged but still alive, I wish I'd never of witnessed it.

 

[rachk89]

I have seen clean ones and messy ones. I hate holding them for the bullet and I avoid it if I can but I will do it if I have to.

99% of the time it goes without hitch.

The worst one I had I was so glad I wasn't holding. I had walked away, next thing the horse comes bolting back round the corner and into the barn so I go to catch him thinking not much of it - until I got to the other side of him. The poor critter had moved his head at the very last second and the bolt had taken the front of his eyeball out. We then had to twitch and blindfold him and I felt so incredibly bad for him. What made it worse for me is knowing that he was a perfectly healty young horse but he was dangerous to ride. If he didn't want to do something he would throw himself over backwards so yes. The deed did need done and at least the owner took responsibilty instead of trying to palm him.off onto someone else.

I have my own done by injection. If I had to have a bullet I would sedate first because I never, ever want to see that again.

Oh god that's horrible that you had to see that. That's also the reason I would hate to see a horse put to sleep with a bullet. I couldn't handle it if it went wrong.

 

[Alec Swan]

…….

I never thought I could hold a horse in such circumstances ……..

That was a courageous act. It isn't easy and despite the fact that I've had considerable practice at it, it's never any easier. I hate it. With my own animals, I can't leave it to others and have the animal confused or distressed, though I accept that others may not be able to face it.

Sometimes, overcoming our understandable fears gives us a bit of a lift in that we come away from the day with the knowledge that we did what was right. It's better for us to say that we're glad that we did, rather than that we wish that we had, if that makes sense! I understand how difficult it can be, but you should be one such person, a huge well done.

Alec.

 

[pegasus1986]

i had my old mare pts with the bullet it was very quick and i even held her to the end i couldnt bear not to be with her in her last seconds of life it was traumatic but only for the reason i didnt want her to go i wanted her to live forever she didnt bleed too much there was a bit but not loads and i just covered it up after. i miss her loads she was my best freind x

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

My first experience with a horse being pts was in 1981, I remember the sound of the winch pulling him in. Then later was at a yard which is still local to me now, it was 1987 or 1986 and there must have been 6 horses pts during that time one natural causes. All left a trail of blood leading up to where the ramp had been, and one ultra bad one where the bullet came out and brought part of the brain out near the ear. This was told to us by the owner of the yard, who was distressed after this.


Since these early years where the bullet was the only method, we now have a choice, and since I first saw the tv program * it's a vet's life* as in Scotland first they were given an option, where as down south it was mainly the bullet. I will not hold for the bullet but have done with injections for all of mine apart from my donkey last week as mentioned before at the RVC, I did not think I was allowed to.

I would always offer to hold for the injection if a friend could not do it, the sound of the bullet always haunts me as the last thing I would hear remembering my horse same with the blood. I could not bear to see it thinking of her beautiful head with a hole and the blood. This is by no means dissing anyone who chooses the other method. This is purely my view and why I will not use the gun, as this is a really sensitive - emotional- and distressing subject and time to deal with, with any owner and one of the worst parts of owning horses or donkey's. Sadly we all have to go through this at some point and try as we might you are never fully prepared for the emotional part.

The only advice I can offer is

Gun Method:

Make sure the yard owner are aware so they can move horses away from the area and out of the line of chosen place
Some yards will tell livery owners not to come onto the yard till the dead is done.
Make sure in advance who you will use to perform the termination so when it comes you have a plan in place.
Make sure you tell the yard owner your method if something happens while your away.



Injection method.

Which cremation company you want to use
maybe go and see the premises so your familiar with their practice and establishment
which service you want
what you want on casket

Believe me there is nothing harder than your animal pts and taken away and then the company ask you what you want, when your in no right state to think.

 

[Tory27]

I’d like, if I may, to use this subject to ask the following question?

Can the hunt/kennels remove the horse if it’s been pts by veterinary injection? I read that only horses pts buy gun/bolt can be removed by the hunt because injection contains chemical’s harmful to the hounds? If so, apologies but how does one dispose of a horse if its been pts sleep by vet? I may loose my old mare this year and will turn to the local hunt/kennels because of the reason they can pts and take horse away all in one?

I also am of the opinion when my horse(s) go to the hunt their spirit will live on within the hounds and when I’m hunting or out in the countryside I’ll know I'm with her again - and I take great peace in that.