Wayne Channon's new column

[Halfstep]

What do you all think? Eurodressage

Personally, I can see where Wayne is coming from when he talks about judges "rounding down" and I can sort of understand how having half points would work. But I do wonder whether making scoring even more complicated would make dressage seem more distant and difficult to the average spectator. I think reforming collectives and coefficients might be a better way of ameliorating the problem that Wayne identifies......

 

[Ferdinase514]

Ooooh very interesting indeed.

When I read your post initially, I thought that half marks would be a silly idea. Having read his article, I can see that it would be quite beneficial.

What i really think would be nice is for judges to bring their marks up generally, starting at an 8 and marking up or down as appropriate.

 

[hotellie]

they once did half marks at an unaff ODE i did and i thought then that it would be a gd idea...i still think that it would be quite a gd idea...as long as it didnt get too complicated with then 1/4 marks etc.!

 

[Dutch]

I love Eurodressage.com! I have written articles for Astrid in the past.

I think it is one of the only places that tackles the problems head on.
I thought Wayne's column was good, and some of the comments very well said.

Diana

 

[Jo C]

What a radical idea but after reading the article I think it is a great idea. I do agree though that reforming the collectives would probably help also.

 

[Tempi]

Im not sure about the half points, as it will make everything even more complicated than it already is.

Ive got to say that recently ive had a couple of problems out competing where judges have recongnised Archie and remember his bad behaviour frm previous tests. Unfortunately i believe ive been marked down in tests and started at a '6' rather than a '7' or '8' because of his PREVIOUS behaviour. On the weekend we did a near perfect test, only to get a pretty awful score and to have the judge tell me afterwards that she thought 'he was better than last time i saw him'. The test i did was better than one that i won 4weeks ago on 68%

Yet this time with a judge who regonised me i only got 63%. I watched the video back and showed it to my trainer, who also agreed it was a plus 68% test at least.......

My trainer wants to compete Archie for me to see what sort of marks he will get on him, now as hes very well known i have a feeling he'l go in the arena and start at an '8' and go up or down. How is this fair on the rest of us? How come even tho Archie and I have improved beyond regonition that i still get marked low because im not 'famous' - it makes me so angry and im sure it does a lot of other people in my situation aswell

Im currently looking for places further afield to compete in the hope that i will get judges who dont know me or Archie and will judge us according to how we go on the day, not on previous days.....

 

[burtie]

Sometimes just moving up a level seems to help! My friend with the grey seemed stuck at around 60% for elementary with some judges regardless. Yet she moved up to medium and scored 64% on her first outing at that level under the same judge!

I know what you mean though, one reason I'm sticking to unaf with Herbs until he's a bit less looky at shows.

 

[Tempi]

Im not really competing at the moment now, because of this - just one comp a month to keep him ticking over. Got our first medium at the end of December, so im hoping - like you said - once we start moving up the levels it wont be quite so bad.

I remember your friend with the grey, realy lovely little horse

 

[Halfstep]

Judges unfortunately are human and are influenced by memory and preconceptions. Dressage is not an exact science.

I used to teach an humanities subject at university level. We had a big problem about marking students because they had to compete against scientists for scholarships, but it was far more difficult to get a First (over 70%) in an humanities subject than in the sciences. Basically tutors were unwilling ever to give anything over around 70% to a humanities student no matter how good they were. But it wasn't uncommon for scientists to get marks in the 90s. An humanities essay, rather like a dressage test, is marked against certain criteria, but the judgment is subjective and easily effected by the personal opinion of the assessor. 10/10 is almost impossible to achieve - because there really isn't any concrete and unequivocal agreement of what perfection is.

I think dressage is very similar. In the University example, it was very difficult to get markers to use the higher range of marks, even though they knew they were being unfair to their students by not doing so. In the end, the humanities and sciences simply had to stop comparing results to compete for scholarships. I don't know what the answer for dressage is, but acknowledging the problem is a good step. Especially when it comes from someone like Wayne who seems very clued up and eloquent about dressage and the wider world.

 

[Tempi]

I definately agree with you there, its just how they start to deal with the problem that is going to be difficult.

 

[abb123]

Another complication is that you are also marked in comparison to your competitors. So, for example if the first competitor is excellent, e.g. someone competing HC, following tests tend to have lower scores.

 

[Tempi]

I generally dont find that much to be honest. Sometimes if you go after someone really good i think the score can be a little low, but nothing that drastic.

 

[crabbymare]

I think it does depend on your area, my scores have got better with the same judges, they are all saying horse is improving if I talk to them afterwards, but so are my scores.
When I can I write for the judges and its interesting that they all seem to want to give the higher marks, but the horse is not doing quite enough for the full mark up which I can see if I have time to watch the movement! so bringing back half marks would be good from a rider and judge point of view, but not so easy for the people adding the scores and yes I know its just a case of putting .5 on the end, but when you are sitting there trying to add sheets call competitors and answer queries at the same time which a lot of the organisers have to do its not so easy.

 

[Little_Mare]

I wasn't convinced at first but now I think half marks would be a good idea. I think they'd be useful when judging comparatively for example if a horse with good paces gets a 7 then another follows with "good-but-not-as-good" paces that usually get a 7 they can be awarded a 6.5 rather than dropping down a whole mark and wondering what went wrong.

I think it’s important to remember that it is a mark out of 10 not 5 (5-10). I also don't think it’s unreasonable that a perfect mark should be far rarer in dressage than say gymnastics as the horse has to be 100% on-side - the rider might ride a perfect 10 but the horse might not answer with one on the day! However, I do agree that 10 is "excellent" not "perfect" and perhaps should be awarded more so long as it’s deserved!

 

[franki]

Very interesting article. In my experience I come across judges who don't separate the mark correctly, for example Novice 21 has a separate mark for the track right at C, a separate out of 10 mark for just tracking right. As the test moves on there are up to 3 segments for the mark, something like between E&H 15m circle, back to the track between E&K, trot at K. In my mind 3 segments for the one (10) mark. I don't believe judges consider these 3 segements and average the 3 for a mark out of 10. I think they look at the first bit and mark it (the 15m circle) or the last bit (the trans) and mark it.

What does anyone else think? Do judges mark better going up the levels?

 

[Touchwood]

I agree with half marks, because very often something is a 'good 6' but not quite a 7. I don't think its that complicated at all.

I compete and am currently on the trainee judge list, so out writing etc.
From my observations, I generally think that the standard of judging is good and impartial. Sadly the very nature of the beast is that people are always unhappy (unless they win!).
Overall, I always see the best test winning, and people aren't pre-judged. You will always see exceptions with some judges, but this is really down to BD training and testing. Personally, I would like to see more committment from some judges, and more testing, as I think its easy to get in a 'rut' as you judge - more frequent testing and more training would go a good way towards solving this.

 

[Nats_uk]

[ QUOTE ]
..... Unfortunately i believe ive been marked down in tests and started at a '6' rather than a '7' or '8' because of his PREVIOUS behaviour......

[/ QUOTE ]

Well why did you start at a 7 or 8? I've been told by friends and judges (and I agree) that each movement should start as a 10 and then you get marked according to that.

I have seen half marks used at local unaffiliated shows and I don't think it causes any confusion.

 

[Tempi]

I dont know, ask the judges

Its all very well agreeing that each movement should start with a 10 and work down, but thats not always the case - which has been outlined by Wayne in the above column and also Richard Davidson recently in his H&H Column.

 

[dieseldog]

And this is why I like Show Jumping

 

[Nats_uk]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont know, ask the judges

Its all very well agreeing that each movement should start with a 10 and work down, but thats not always the case - which has been outlined by Wayne in the above column and also Richard Davidson recently in his H&H Column.

[/ QUOTE ]

In an ideal world where judges aren't biased, etc etc!!!

 

[OliveOyl]

I sometimes think it might be a slightly more level playing field if we all competed with a bag over our head, a number on our back and left names out of the equation.

 

[Tempi]

i agree!! Maybe we could all wear masks and spary paint our horses so the judges cant tell who we are

 

[crabbymare]

Novice 21 does not have a mark just for the turn, its either worded so the turn is in with the center line (and the second movement starts at the 1/4 mark), or its part of the second movement which is the trot down the longside and round to A, in either case there is more than just the turn to be marked.

I find most judges do mark the whole movement, in the old tests there are several sections to each movement, but the new and renumbered ones do seem to be addressing that and are have the transition as a separate mark now which helps a lot.

One thing I would like to see is more 'normal' horses (and ponies) being used for judge training. It seems to be mostly the more established horses that are seen, and it would be nice if positive things were seen in the way cobs or natives go as well.
Would be nice to see a cob or a pony at the National Convention as well, but since as thats always done by a top rider or trainer I doubt it would ever happen (although I do remember a lovely pony at the Schumacher one).

Does anyone know why half marks were stopped, I think they were used several years back in the dark and distant past!!

 

[crabbymare]

Good one!! What would be REALLY interesting purely as a training excercise would be to have a method of videoing a class and taking out the upper part of the rider, then having the horse/rider in black as a sillhouette on a white background, and marking the class again - would be interesting to see what marks were awarded and the comments given!!

 

[Little_Mare]

[ QUOTE ]
What would be REALLY interesting purely as a training excercise would be to have a method of videoing a class and taking out the upper part of the rider, then having the horse/rider in black as a sillhouette on a white background, and marking the class again - would be interesting to see what marks were awarded and the comments given!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but you'd still be able to see my girlie's stumpy legs!

What would be really interesting is if you could cleverly transform a top WB into a fluffy cob and vice versa - then we'd see!

I have to say that personally I've never felt especially discriminated against on my pony, well not at BD anyway!

 

[JLav]

Most of the judges I know try not to be influenced by previous performances names etc. It certainly makes no difference to me whether its Carl Hester or Joe Bloggs trotting down the centre line. I mark what I see whoever it is. The fact of the matter is that Carl would a) probably be on a better horse and b) ride a better test so 9 times out of 10 would get better marks.

It's also the case that if Carl then rode Joe Bloggs horse it would probably get better marks as he would undoubtedly ride it better.

I can see the argument for half marks but on the whole in every judge training session I've ever been on the advise has always been 'if in doubt mark UP not down' ie if hesitating between a 6 or a 7 go with the 7. If there is not a clear and immediate reason why it is only a 6 then go higher. This is obviously something that becomes much easier as you gain experience, knowledge and confidence because then the marks become so much easier to give, and those moments of indiscision seem less and less.