weak back or kissing spine

[gillcook]

Hi I have had crumble a 5 yr old mare for 6 months had 3 weeks of no problems then it started with stopping both with and without company on the way out and home. Did the usual teeth/saddle checks then got the physio who did some work and suggested getting vet out - he came and decided she had attitude,went back to lunging progressed on to schooling improved slightly then had got progressively worse again - got the vet back this time he says weak back lunge for 7-10 days on bute then school ensuring she is using her back. At this point I wasn't convinced she is fine to lunge only becomes unhappy when a rider on board is worse going up or down hills and won't trot, I have done the lunging again and got on board today horse won't move just kicks out but will lunge fine. I just wondered if anyone has had a horse that has had problems this bad without having a kissing spine, I find it hard to beleive that there isn't something going on. I am asking for x-rays now as I need to know for sure what is going on to know what to do next. Starting to get a bit deprssing now as I bought her to get on and go after loosing my last mare after 14 years in feb this year have had 18 months of unwell horses - only want to have some fun.

 

[eohippus]

Aw, poor you, how frustrating. If the saddle fits and the physio cannot find any particular tension/knots or heat in the muscles then it is hard to say what is going on.
When lunging how does crumble work, what are you lunging her in?.
It takes a long time to build the top line muscles up, but by what you have said she was working fine before. How about getting her farrier out to see if she is completely foot balanced. or seeing if her bit is contributing to her behaviour.
A scan may show more, what does the vet recommend?
Really hope you find a good solution to your horses problems
sorry could not be more help
Regards
Dawn

 

[AmyMay]

Have you also had a professional trainer evaluate her - just to be absolutely sure it's not an attitude problem??

Also - what breed and height is she - does she need some time to physically mature?

 

[gillcook]

Thanks Dawn
Physio did find some tension but was more concerned about the visable lumps over lumbar spine which was when the kissing spine conversation started. She is lunged in a harbridge she makes a good shape now and is using her back. Have been lunging and schooling with help of my instuctor since beginning of july which is why i would have thought that if it was just a weak back it would be slowly improving by now not getting worse. Farrier has done a brilliant job with her feet which were terrible when I got her, bit wise she is in a loose ring snaffle at the moment. My gut feeling is that she is trying to tell me something! but I am aware that it is possible she could be having me on!

 

[gillcook]

Hi
Crumble is a 15.3 cob X tb, i bought her from a lady who was probably about 7 stone and the area was very flat, I am pretty sure that she wasn't lunged very much when broken just hacked about. I am a little heavier!! than her previous owner (11 stone) and our area is very hilly. I have been working with my instructor since beg of July but feel i need to rule out physical problems first to be fair to crumble

 

[AmyMay]

[ QUOTE ]
I have been working with my instructor since beg of July

[/ QUOTE ]
And how does crumble go for them??

 

[eohippus]

Well it does sound like it is a combination of things, lack of former training, unbalanced, unfit for hill work ect ect. You are doing everything right in what you are checking for. and yes it does sound like she is trying to tell you something, but what? is the question. It might be worth getting the physio back out now that you have been working on her topline to see if they can see any improvements, What did they say the lumps were?
Take her out long reining as well to see if her behaviour changes away from the yard without the rider on, this may tell you a lot or nothing, but might be worth a try.
It could be that she is immediately tensing as soon as the rider mounts, may be due to psychological rememberance of a past pain. It might help to ask the physio for some simple massage and stretching movements to perform before and after her work to release any tension and improve circulation.
I once helped a rider whos horse constantly reared with her when going into the school or when being pushed, hated having the saddle put on and would fidget, , they put it down to bad manner and naughtiness, hence calling me, however, when I felt her along her topline she was like a ball of tense muscle, (she was only five and been pushed forward to much, the previous owner had to use spurs ect to get her going), I spent weeks just massaging the horse, then massaging the horse before saddling and after the saddle was put on to relax her, then when I finally got on the first thing she did was totally tense through the back, I had to sit and stroke her till she relaxed then ask her to move forward, everytime she tensed I stopped asking for more and relaxed her, finally she come to the conclusion that she could relax whilst ridden and opened up, she never reared and was finally beginning to supple up, ((i could actually get a round circle rather than a square one, still in walk after six weeks but....) unfortunatley the owner was too impatient and took lessons with someone who insisted to kick and push her to go forward, this reverted her back to tensing and so the rearing started again.
Anyway, sorry about the jackanory, If the physio checks and sees improvements then time and patience may be the only option.
hope this helps
Dawn

 

[Caritas]

Can this horse canter? With and without a rider on board??

 

[gillcook]

Will canter without rider on both reins, can hardly get her to trot with a rider at the moment let alone canter last cantered a few weeks ago had to push trot faster and faster then eventually cantered.

 

[AmyMay]

I think this sounds like a rider issue personally.

Does your instructor ever ride her???

 

[gillcook]

My instuctor hasn't ridden crumble, my sister has with the same result as me. My next step if I am sure its not physical is to send to a prof and see if same response ( my instructor has bad back so unable to ride at the moment - must be catching!!)

 

[djb]

Hi - I sympathise with you as I have had something similar for the past year!
I bought a Welsh D x TB last August - he had not been in regular work with previous owner. After a few weeks he started to refuse to go forwards and I could hardly make him trot in the school!
I got a saddle made to measure, had the physio 4 times, osteo twice and dentist twice over a 6 month period. He would hunch up and not go forward and would buck if you smacked him to back up your leg. They are big bucks as well!
Canter became and issue because I think I was restricting him through the transition expecting him to buck. He would also pull to the right all the time.
Kissing spines crossed my mind aswell.
For a month I didn't school him I just hacked him on a long rein and lunged him, initially with no gadget on at all so he could learn to stretch without a rider on. Then started doing a bit of schooling.
I also found out the "made to measure" saddle was hurting him and so got another new saddle! He then went out and won 2 prelim dressage tests.
He is still quite stuffy but I think thats just him - the bucking has more or less stopped - I try and let him warm up for quite a while before expecting him to do any serious work but I also have to be careful not to let him take advantage and just slope around!
Not sure if it helps but good luck
x

 

[Caritas]

I must admit, my horse has had the kissing spine op and it really did work wonders for him. However, I have read through all of your posts and feel that this is more likely to be a tension related issue rather than a physical one. This is only my opinion and if it was my horse I would send him away to a professional for a few weeks and see if it can be overcome but if it will put your mind at rest you could have some x rays or scans done first. Good luck.

 

[gillcook]

Thanks Caritas
You may well be right it is so difficult to know, she is basically good natured good to handle. The last 2 lessons I had she was ok in walk and then when asked to trot she stopped and when she roots to the spot there is no moving her - if you use a stick she rears not very high but obviously i don't want this to get worse. So we had to use a lunge whip behind her but she was still reluctant she will buck or kick out. I was able to get her out on her own to go for a short hack using a wip wop (richard maxwell tool) but she now takes no notice of this, however if she stops going out of the yard I have always got off and led her she has never got away with it and got on her at a later point. When hacking with her field mate she stopped only at the top or bottom of a hills the other day she was happy to trot on the flat but refused to trot uphill even when her mate trotted off. Which is why it doesn't quite follow that it is just behaviour. I have used every trick I know other than beating the !!!! out of her which I am not willing to do. I have never come across a horse quite like this before which is why i am flumoxed!"!!!

 

[djb]

Has the vet seen her "in action" rather than just examined her stood on the yard or in the stable?

Have you tried giving her bute for a week and seeing if this makes any difference - in theory if it is discomfort she should be better than without it. If she's still the same then it might confirm it's behavioural.

 

[Caritas]

In my experience bute will not mask kissing spines! Good idea though.

 

[gillcook]

Vet examined thouroughly first time he saw her we lunged and then the second time we lunged first then i rode her, this is when he decided her rear is not very well developed she has a fairly long back without much topline although this had improved from the first time he saw her and so decided she was uncomfortable in the back - weak backed and suggested lunging and using raised end poles etc.
I tried bute for 2 weeks with no effect but I agree with caritas it should help with muscle pain but will not mask kissing spines.

 

[Skhosu]

hmmm.. have you seen kissing spine before?
It could just be with all the recent posts your jumping to conclusions.
I would send her to a professional before going down the x-ray route. (make sure its a recommended one though!) What does your instructor think?
Any pics?

 

[gillcook]

No i haven't seen kissing spine, instructor feels that if theres any element of doubt better to find out before forcing the issue. Can't work out how to add pictures!!!!!

 

[appennea]

Hi, I was literally in identical situation - new youngster after losing my horse of a lifetime after 15 years. Had everyone saying it must be my riding and handling etc. Convinced myself that the grief had removed 25 years of riding experience. Real knock to the confidence. Without a doubt get the xrays done. My mare turned out to have kissing spine and has now had the op and a million times happier. Don't push it any further until you know for sure. If she is in pain (and vet, physio and chiropractor couldn't find any signs either until they were pushed on the subject and agreed to full lameness work up at referral centre) you need to know.

 

[gillcook]

Thanks Appennea
I have no idea why we do this either, I have owned horses for over 20 years and while I don't pretend to be an expert or professional I would hope I have learnt a bit over the past few years. My last mare wasn't an easy ride but I worked through that and I usually trust my gut feelings which are telling me there is something wrong this time. I may well be wrong and the xrays might be clear but at least I will know and can then continue to try to work through this without a nagging doubt in the back of my mind (but lighter in the pocket)
The physio wanted her xrayd at the beginning of the summer but vet felt not clinically indicated, I am going to book appointment today for 2nd opinion and x rays then go from there at least i might be able to sleep at night better.
Thanks to everyone for their replies

 

[Bosworth]

I suspect it is nothing to do withkissing spines and all to do with her saddle. Take her saddle off and lunge without. then put on the saddle and no rider and lunge again and then try with a rider on. If she goes fine without saddle then won't go under saddle or with rider then it is your saddle and the riders weight is compounding the problem.

A friends horse with kissing spines has just had the operation. but he was fine on the lunge in trot but freaked in canter and did everything he could do to avoid using his back. it was bad with or without a saddle. He motorcycled around corners. Under saddle he could not canter - it was agony and going down hills in walk was as bad. Svend Kold, the vet, stated that this is a typical Kissing Spines reaction.

Who checked your saddle. Did they run their hands under the pads either side of the gullet and feel for lumps. A lumpy tree can be agony for a horse - a bit like walking with a stone in your shoe.

Whereabouts in teh country are you - I would be happy to do an assessment of your saddle if I am somewhere near you to at least eliminate that before you spend a horrific amount of money on xrays.

 

[appennea]

They're right heart breakers aren't they. You have to go with your gut feeling and ignore comments such as "sounds like a rider problem". You've had horses for a long time and that counts for a lot more than any qualification. Vets are very important but don't really get the owner "instinct" at times.

If it turns out you're just not right together then fine but you'll never know for sure unless you investigate. Personally though I believe such severe reactions must have an underlying cause. In some cases you can have them dealt with or maybe you just have to learn to work with it but at least you know where you stand.

Having gone through this is just so gutting after losing a horse you're so close to. I'm only just starting to bond with my mare now and been nearly a year since I bought her - and that time has been filled with tears (and cracked ribs!). I still don't know whether she'll be the horse for me but I'm giving her the best chance. Do let me know how you get on.

If its any use it turned out that my horse also had a damaged ligament in front of the kissing spine but that had to be identified by ultrasound. My horse showed no signs of being any worse under saddle and was sound. In fact the vet wasn't convinced the Kissing Spine was affecting her at all they thought it was an attitude problem - until she threw me very badly out of the blue after 12 weeks of ground work. Once he operated though it became 100% positive that she had been in pain. She's a changed person since the op and a pleasure to be around. Your horse is showing far more obvious signs of pain by the sounds of it.

 

[gillcook]

Hi Bosworth
I am sure it is not her saddle, the first saddle i had she didn't like at let me know very visually. this lovely new saddle has been fitted by Nathaniel Underwood who is the best saddler in our area and the only person who is recommended by physios, chiropractors and vets alike. I lunge her regulary with and without saddle and she is no different, she lunges ok i.e doesn't refuse to go like she does with a rider on board but this week she has begun to make faces at me whilst lunging she will canter on the lunge but you have to hound her to get her up into canter