Weakness behind

[Daytona]

So I have a 17hh 6 year old lad and I've had him since he was 4, on and off over that period my instructor has sometimes thought he a little stiff on his right hind

We also had issues with him bucking etc but that has all long stopped now - might of been connected though ..?

Anyway in Dec last year my YO and a friend thought he looked lame behind a little so I have him a week off etc they still thought he looked not right so I got my vet out, he did flexion tests poked about at his back etc and said he was fine, but just weak behind and had a funny action - wide behind almost like he has a nappy on if that makes sense, and that's what they were seeing, not a lameness just a weakness.

Even now he has very little muscle over bum and back.

Any a week ago my instructor thought he not right and said look let's get this investigated proper - my vet is a little - let's just wait and see type vets.

There is another local vet hospital who are opposite and more like let's get the horse into hospital and pull it apart till we find a issue.

So I thought right I'm getting the other vets as if something wrong they will find it and I'm sick if this I want to know for sure is my horse ok or not

I've posted videos on here and I think a couple of people have commented he looks like he holds himself tight.

So I got there most experienced lameness vet out and he said


His conformation is poor, long in the back which won't help as makes him weak , he is a little unlevel and if you want to be picking maybe 1/10th lame buts it's due to growing quick and joints being weak along with poor conformation and there nothing a vet can do to change his confirmation , said he see this all the time in big WB horses.

That plenty of "lame" horses compete it's just a case of managing it

Told me I need to just ride him, work to build his back end up best I can etc.

He drags his toes on lunge in trot.

Vet also if he was to pinpoint the issue he would say stifles , but basically I've just to except he a bit unlevel at times and carry on as we are.

Later down the line he might get some kind of joint problem and if he does they can help it - injections etc but for now it's not really a issue

Anyone had anything like this before..?? Kinda upset but vet tells me he will still do what I want him to do , BS newcomers etc.

This is him to you see the bad conformation in the back end.?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I know that some stifle issues improve when the horse is fit, is this what the Vet hopes is the case here?

 

[Daytona]

Hmm he never really said that exactly, just said was not a big enough issue to worry about and there not really any point doing anything to him as won't make him any better, and that it just a slight unlevelness behind due to poor confirmation kinda, and just to ride him and get him working from behind best I can, build his back end up as that will help him.

 

[Booboos]

Sorry to hear you are having problems after all the hard work you have put in your boy! What a shame!

His conformation looks fine to me, doesn't look long in the back, maybe straight in the pastern? But I am crap at conformation so I am sure someone more experienced will help more.

I think you have two options: either push for more exams now or work him until a more serious problem manifests itself. If you decide on the first option I would be tempted to get an immediate referral to a large centre (AHT? Leahurst? Newmarket?) where they can do everything necessary. If the vet suspects stiffles has he blocked them to see what happens? That seems like a reasonable first step. Down the line a scintigraphy might be useful but I think you;d be looking at a serious outlay of vet costs. If you decide on the second option then forget about it, ride him as normal and see if anything more obvious crops up.

 

[Daytona]

I think option two is what my vet is hinting at, I'm base in NE Scotland , so the places you speak of are of no use. The vet I used though is large for this area and has a decent animal hospital, TBH I thought going by this vets reputation they would of hauled him in and gone to town in him to find the issue but the vet dismissed it as pointless, and just to get on with riding him. Which I was shocked a little. I'm going to follow there advice, over the past two years I've had every man and his dog look at my horse because he used to buck etc no one has ever found a real issue with him. I wonder if I'm just a paranoid owner lol. I will do as he says and keep plugging away and I guess what will be will be. I just wondered if anyone else ever been told there big young horse just weak and if so did it go on to be ok or did the wheels fall off in the end.?

 

[lori ann]

Hi Ludoctro the stifle will improve with work hacking start on gentle hills and build up to a steeper hill over a few weeks also trotting poles are brill then start to raise every other one after a few times do this twice a week and get a tub of Myoplast from your vets can recommend we have followed this programme for a horse with a weak stifle and has worked. All the best. The Myoplast will improve general muscle condition overall is expensive but well worth it.

 

[lori ann]

PS forgot to say he is lacking muscle in the stifle area. Otherwise he is a nice young horse just needs some muscle over his back etc.

 

[Daytona]

Hi thanks for that I tried myloplast before and never seen any real improvement I've recently started adding L-lysine instead to his food, which is meant to be a good muscle building block but a 1/4 of the cost

I hope your right and that with time it will improve. If his wheels fall off I will be shattered, I've put my heard and soul into this horse along with a serious amount of money.

If he breaks that's it for me, I'm jacking horses in, too much heartache.

 

[Booboos]

I don't want to freak you out but it really depends what the stiffle problem is (if it is a stiffle problem with your boy - it doesn't sound like you have a firm diagnosis). My 6 year old's stiffle problem turned out to be OCD, which did not respond to an operation and 9 months box rest, so he was eventually PTS. HOWEVER, you can drive yourself crazy speculating and it could be a million things or nothins! What does your vet say to the suggestion of nerve blocks?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

RE his confo, he does look long in the back (and weak behind), but I'm used to short coupled arabs, so in a way it's to be expected that that's what I see. If you want a really good confo assessment of him, PM Cortez. However, if you do get him fitter he should improve behind and hopefully it will help the stifle problem too. As LA says, hill work would be ideal.

 

[Daytona]

He said there was not enough of a issue there to warrant him being pulled in for a work up. As for stifle he just that's where he would bet his money the unlevel ness was coming from but could not say for certain. Said you normal see stifle issues more in the canter but he had a good canter

 

[TarrSteps]

Re conformation, as with any horse, he is what he is. There is no sense fussing about any weaknesses once the horse is standing in front of you, they only inform what you can expect of the horse (being aware that horses can both exceed and not live up to expectations!) and how you manage it.

OP are you not currently working with quite a high end SJ trainer? Perhaps discuss the situation with him and/or with any other professional you trust. Your vet is right, there are all sorts of horses with "issues" competing successfully and experienced pros tend to be a bit more clued up and chilled out about this fact. This is not to say that people should not be concerned with their horses' soundness, it just goes some way to explaining why your vet didn't automatically urge more investigation.

 

[flintfootfilly]

Does he move on willingly in all paces? Or is there any reluctance?

Doesn't sound like your vets have been particularly helpful. It's a shame you are so far away from Newmarket, because I would have recommended Sue Dyson, who was very thorough when I took a couple of ponies to her.

If the horse is insured, I would push for a referral and to find out what's wrong, otherwise you will run out of the 12 month cover since a problem was first seen.

If the horse isn't insured, I'm not sure what I'd do. I guess it depends how much you think he is not normal.

Has he ever had any blood tests done, and if so, do you have the results? Was CK (creatine kinase) tested? Was it within reference range?

All I'm thinking is that it would be worth making sure his diet is as good as it can be, in terms of vits/mins. I'd definitely make sure he receives the full ration of a daily vit/min supplement or balancer (or feed) to provide 1mg of selenium in the form of organic selenium (aka selplex or selenium yeast). With my gang, they have shown much more pronounced signs in terms of work intolerance, but the least affected of them has shown shifting lamenesses and a lack of enthusiasm for work. Selenium is essential for muscle health, and a lot of the UK is deficient in selenium.

Hope you get to the bottom of things, and that he is ok.

Sarah

 

[vam]

Not read the replies but your boy sounds like mine. After a dumping at a show when he refused I knew something was up as this horse never stops, when I look back he was starting to get a bit sticky but no real alarm bells. I had also had a fall off him after the launched me into the air and I ended up pulling his neck about trying to stay on, I think that had iffy stifles meant he had enough. He was getting more and more stuffy and I was finding harder and harder to get a nice tune out of him, I blamed my riding but after the dumping I knew something was up.
Anyway the vet came back up after a 2 week bute trial shows no improvement and after seeing him on the lunge and ridden felt that he was going around ‘with his pants on too tight’ and felt it was the stifles. After blocking the stifles it became clear he was right, with his stifles blocked he was completely different, the vet rode him before and after blocking and agreed so we decided to treat them. He had steroid and something else, can’t remember the name, joint grease I called it, injected a week off, week walk and a week with trot then back in proper work. The horse never looked back. Kept making improvements, I had a very good physio start treating him and between her and my vet found a routine that worked. The more he worked (correctly) the better he got lots of raised poles, hacking etc and he was going and jumping better than ever. There was a blip about 9 months on when the vet wasn’t happy with him but when he came back 2 weeks later he had improved again, mainly down to me not being so slack with the way I rode him and schooling. We decided that if at any point he went backwards we would reassess but unfortunately I haven’t found out if the injections have worn off. The last visit from the vet showed he was still going really well even thou there was next to nothing of the steroid in his joints. The left is worse than the right but if I keep him working and using it has as seemed perfectly fine and sound.
He was 8 when this started, I got him at rising 5 and although he had been backed and done a few bs nothing major, he is a very similar stamp to yours as well. My vet did say you see this a lot with bigger wb’s and it can often be OCD, as mine made such an improvement we decided that this probably wasn’t the case and the injections gave him a helping hand while work and time did the rest.
The refusal was more muscular as if his neck is some much as tweaked the wrong way he let you know in no uncertain terms, I think I wouldn’t have noticed the stifles if I hadn’t had that fall as other than being a bit lazy there wasn’t any other signs. Again he moves a bit wide behind more on the left.

He is currently off with a fractured knee so I have no idea what he is going to be like when I bring him back into work, he made need injecting again who knows.

I think the vet should at least block the stifles if that is where he thinks the problem is then you can work with that, work is the key if it is but you won’t know how to go forward otherwise.

 

[Daytona]

TarS yes I discussed it with SJ guy he already told me to stop fussing, then when vet came I told him what he said , he agreed and told me to get on with it. Said he sees a lot worse jumping and they manage fine,

He just kinda dismissed it a bit and said Ludo will manage fine what I need him for type thing.

Basically shut up and just ride him type attitude

No issue with insurance as there was nothing to look at according to vets, just a weakness due to conformation , that May or may not turn into anything in the future he said . He said he weak due to growing quickly and not good conformation , he did not seem worried about it at all really.

No reluctance from Ludo, never refused a fence, does not make the best shape over a fence I've been told, he needs to lower his head but the SJ he was with has improved this a lot, he thinks I was catching the horse in the mouth making him hollow a bit.

The horse seems happy in himself if I'm honest, not sure if I just worrying over nothing. Feed wise he gets frickers formula, progressive earths pro hoof , celery seeds and Lysine so I think his vits and minerals are met

 

[Daytona]

Vam - that's very interesting story thanks for sharing it and I will keep it in mind, I will see how we get on over next few months if I honest I don't notice much wrong with him he certainly feels ok to me to ride etc, it's just the odd time my instructor as noticed a little stiffness but then it disappears as quick as it appeared type thing and is by no means consistent .

 

[TarrSteps]

What you say about the way your horse jumps is interesting. A change in form or a form that doesn't go with the horse can be a cause for concern, but equally, something that makes a horse jump at less than its best - saddle problems, rider interference etc - can cause undue physical strain. The reason we worry about how horses jump is not just about leaving the poles up, it's about what is best for the horse.

The complication with that is, though, it takes time and work to correct bad habits, too, so there can be short term strain even in the service of good. It could be that the work your trainer has done recently to improve matters has tweaked the horse's weak areas a bit.

I suspect though, if someone did a study, there are more horses jumping at a good level with 'imperfections' than doing upper level dressage. Jumping allows for much more individuality and so long as the horse is doing it comfortably and successfully, that's the main consideration.

 

[khalswitz]

I would agree with your trainer and vet and just 'ride it and see' - worst case scenario, if there's an issue, at least working him might make him lame enough to properly examine? If you do want to refer on, being based in Scotland, I'd say try Clyde vets - they are top notch. There's also Loch Leven who are referral. I'm NE Scotland too, and I've referred to Clyde from some of the 'top' local vets, and was surprised by how poorly the vets in our area are looked upon by the top vets in the country, usually down to interpretation of work-ups and of x-rays etc

 

[Daytona]

Thanks TS that's made me feel better, last thing I want is my boy to be sore, vet assured me he is not sore but you know what like can't help but worry, I'm going to spend this winter just working slowly to build him up, forget about pressure to get out jumping etc, lots of hacking, poles etc and try to just have some fun on him at same time. I bought him with stars in my eyes I was going to be some ace SJer lol but fell flat on my face at the first hurdle, I'm over all that now I just want to enjoy him, I recently spent some time alone long hacks in the woods and it dawned on me it was the most fun I'd had on him ever , so that's what I'm going to do , plenty of slow hilly hacks and see how he fairs next year. I'd love to see him looking well with decent muscle instead of scrawny

 

[Goldenstar]

It takes time a lot of time to develop a horse like this .
Hacking will be great for him I spend time walking mine up and down the grassy slopes of an old quarry, crossing rough ground develops their ability to balance and adjust themselves as will be pole work on the lunge .
There's no point worrying about conformation now you just have to concerntrate on getting him the best he can be that's all anyone can do from Valegro to a first pony that ought to be our aim.
I have learned so much from involving a physio in the training programme for my horses so this might be a route you could try .
Working to develop him with a dressage trainer might be worth considering as well.
In my mind I spilt training into physical development and teaching them to do things like say accept the aids jump coloured fillers of course the two are linked but it's easy to get focused on say getting them settled at shows and forget you need to be driving forward their physical development with a plan to.
Good luck it takes ages to develop a big horse like him but the doing of it is such fun I just love watching them change and develop .

 

[Daytona]

Yeah I get weekly lessons with a dressage lady, been inconsistent recently as he was away with a SJ guy but I'm back to them so fingers crossed I will see a improvement as time goes on

 

[TarrSteps]

I think Gs's point is very important - it's not just WHAT we teach horses to do, it's HOW we teach them to do it. It's a good thing you're thinking about this stuff now, while he is young, and can be aware of it going forward. Too many people ignore their horse's weak points or don't think too much about how the horse is using itself so long as the results come or they get to do what they want. Unfortunately subtle issues ignored inevitably cause issues down the line, when they are much harder to address.

 

[lynnandbella]

Pleeease read my article on my young mares stifles, i truely hope its not the same, but get them xrayed please?. Im heart broken as my 4yr old was born with djd and the previous vets misdiagnosed her , dont waste time , ive been told my mare is lazy , trying it on will grow out of it, shes 4 and has to be pts as the degeneration has gone so far its unrepearable, shes going to have a month of pain relief so she can have some happy time
But both stifles,are so bad now. Just get scans if current vets wont do it transfer to another vet, answers cost nothing x