Weighted boots

[Irishcobs]

Our 4 yr old at work was born very crooked- right hind. It slowly straighted over time and you can't see it now, but he is a bit weak there. He started work in April and as a precaution had the back man to see him in June, just to check him over.
He suggested using a weighted boot on his right hind, to help strengthen it. I have never heard of a weighted boot and it sounds a bit old fashioned to me, could it help?

 

[LEC]

I never used to see them and now see them in horse catalogues for SJ. When I did my knee I had to do weights to build up the muscle other than just cardio so do not see why same principle would not work on a horse.

 

[puddicat]

No it couldn't help. It might cause an injury though but I guess that's not what you want. Just out of interest, it would be fun to ask your back man to explain why it would help.

 

[HoneyvalesHorses]

why wouldn't it help?? just interested because i would have thought it would ?

 

[puddicat]

Its a good question and I can't think of way of answering it that is short and sufficiently explicit - the reason is that "adding weight to the lower limb interferes with the way the leg works in a manner that can not improve the function of the leg" but that doesn't explain much.

How about if you tell me why you think it would work and I try to identify what's wrong with the reasoning?

 

[amage]

they are heavy leather boots that you can put strips of lead into to make a horse more careful behind when showjumping. if you were going to use them i would very gradually build up how much lead you put in. even just the thick leather will be enough to start and never jump him in them he is far too young. TBH i would be loathe to use them on a horse that young anyway regardless of what its for...

 

[puddicat]

how do they make the horse more careful ?

 

[PapaFrita]

I've heard of people using weighted boots/bandages with lead strips with good results for SJing (I've heard it does make a horse more careful though I don't know how) AND I've heard weighted boots cause undue stress on horse's legs/tendons/ligaments etc and are therefore BAD.... HOWEVER (and this is where I get confused...) we go to the gym and work out with different weights to build up strength/muscle tone... I can see how putting too much weight on a horse's legs would be damaging, but wouldn't light weights be beneficial?
I hasten to add I'm absolutely ignorant of these things (never having used them myself) and would be delighted if anyone would care to enlighten me

 

[HoneyvalesHorses]

[ QUOTE ]
I can see how putting too much weight on a horse's legs would be damaging, but wouldn't light weights be beneficial?


[/ QUOTE ]

yeah thats what i was thinking don't kow though

 

[Beanyowner]

[ QUOTE ]
...we go to the gym and work out with different weights to build up strength/muscle tone... I can see how putting too much weight on a horse's legs would be damaging...

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Because we have muscle tissue in our lower limbs...horses don't! Think of the horses leg as a pendulum...when you increase the mass on the lower limb the pendulums velocity increases and therefore increases the strain down through the 'absorber' points (i.e. knee, carpus to you posh lot!!

). When the limb is at maximum extension it is down to the muscles at the top of the leg to slow the velocity down so the limb can go into retraction.
Little knee bones are all joined together with ligaments which get squished if the limb goes into hyperextension...so then the little knee bones put pressure on each other. Chips and fractures can therefore occur.

Weighted boots cause greater forces, therefore a greater chance of hyperextension so therefore a possibility of carpal fractures....in basic!

Awaiting the debate...anyone?!?!

Did you find out why the back man said to use weighted boots in the end?!?

 

[puddicat]

OK here's an attempt to answer HCH and PapaFrita's comment on weights: Humans are the same as horses in many aspects of their physiology including the response of muscle to exercise to the basic idea of weight training to increase muscle mass is OK for horses as well as humans.

However humans are very different from horses in the design of their limbs and in some of their functions so you’ve got to be a bit careful when you transfer ideas across from humans to horses. Basically what happens in human weight training is that certain muscles are targeted and exercises devised that will work those muscles. A sensible approach to transferring the weight training idea to horses might therefore identify the muscles that require toning/strengthening and to devise exercises that work them. In my experience however, few people other than vets and physiotherapists know the muscles in a horse’s hind leg let alone where they are and what they do. Irischcobs: Perhaps you should ask your back man what muscles need to be developed to correct the problem you have described and how a weighted boot will cause these muscles to be worked?

So lets work the other way around and try to imagine what effect a weighted boot would have.

When the foot is on the ground the boot is not moving anywhere much so it is having no ‘training’ effect on any muscles. However when the foot is on the ground the horse is using its big hind limb muscles to support it and drive it in whatever direction its going. So this suggests weighted boots have no effect on the muscles that are supporting and moving the horse around. There is a weight training exercise that will build these muscles, its called pulling a cart with the brakes on.

When the horse comes to move its leg forwards it has to move the leg and the boot too so the boot interferes with the evolved process for swinging the leg forward for the next stride. It is not clear that this would build the muscles that move the leg forward but lets suppose it did build these muscles. I’d ask (1) do you know which muscles these are, where they are ie do you know which bit of the horse is going to get bigger? and (2) why is it advantageous to uniquely build the muscles that swing the leg forward. (I reckon it isn't but I'm open to persuasion).

The reason weighted boots might cause injury comes from somewhere else. If you stand back and look at the legs of many animals it appears that those of a large herbivore persuasion have tapered legs which makes them relatively lightweight, which in turn makes them easier to move. Adding a weight to the bottom of the limbs interferes with these highly specialised systems and will cause larger stresses in the limb bones muscles and tendons (as Beanyowner said). This can only have a detrimental effect in the form of increased risk of injury.

 

[Theresa_F]

Puddicat

I do love reading your replies. Now feel far more enlightened.

Now wondering about can people cause damage using the heavy weighted shoes to encourage a high leg action....

 

[amage]

i think the premise on which they work is they make the horse basically more aware of their back legs. they feel the weight react by moving the leg higher and thus clear the fence.

 

[HoneyvalesHorses]

oh right

 

[Irishcobs]

Its not my horse, I'm a groom so I work with it. I was told to put the weighted boot on as it will help build up his muscles, thats it. I wasn't told anymore and I wasn't there when the back man came. The back man is a physiotherapist, I just call him the back man as I can't spell physiotherapist.

 

[emma69]

I *think* the theory is that you use them in training and warm up then take them off before the competition round (heck knows if this is BSJA legal, methinks probably not) so that the horse then feels lighter behind and therefore clears the fence by more - if you watch baseball players warming up, they add a weight to the bat as they take practice swings, so it feels lighter when they come to hit for real.

However, it is something I would not do SJing, as I am aware of the hyper-extension risks as someone pointed out, and I would especially not use one boot to alter the action in order to build up muscle. On an unmuscled, unbalanced horse that sounds like a recipie for disaster - with a human you can explain the logic of weights, with a horse, all he will feel is 'wrong' and that can cause problems that may further exaccebate injuries

 

[puddicat]

i think the premise on which they work is they make the horse basically more aware of their back legs. they feel the weight react by moving the leg higher and thus clear the fence.

thank you for that, I imagined it might be something along those lines. I think the horse might pick its feet up higher but not becaue it was being careful.

I *think* the theory is that you use them in training and warm up then take them off before the competition round.

Ahh yes nice idea but that almost certainly won't work. - Think I've said enough already on this post so won't elaborate on these two ideas. Its dead intresting though

 

[emma69]

As I said, I don't agree with it, far too much risk, but generally if you put something heavier on, the muscles etc get used to moving it, and it feels lighter and therefore for a short while you will over-use the muscles expecting the weight - try lifting your arms while holding two heavy shopping bags a few times, drop them and then lift your arms, they move up faster than you would expect because the 'memory' is of the weight.

 

[puddicat]

Yes generally that's true and I guess it's examples like your shopping bags that lead folks to think it will work with weighted boots in horses. Unfortunately, its not that simple.
As I said earlier, the problem comes when people take basic ideas like weight training or motor learning and apply them to a situation without thinking carefully enough about the detail of what they're doing. There are all sorts of reasons why the boot idea wouldn't work with ggs.

 

[puddicat]

this was interesting too

with a human you can explain the logic of weights, with a horse, all he will feel is 'wrong' and that can cause problems that may further exaccebate injuries

I'm not convinced they would feel wrong or how feeling wrong can cause problems unless you're working with the idea that the gee might take evasive action and start swishing a leg around to get the boot off. When I've weighted legs the horses haven't behaved in a way that would indicate that they noticed any difference. There was certainly no leg swishing going on!

I think the injury risk comes directly from the mechanical effect of adding weight and is probably less for the hind limb than the forelimb.

 

[emma69]

I've never used weighted boots, so can't comment, but whenever I have used boots and bandages on horses for he first time, they act as tho they have a fifth leg some of them! They walk in a very exaggerated manner, and depending on the horse it can take several minutes for them to walk properly again, and when they trot, again, they can act strangely for a few minutes until they get used to them

 

[puddicat]

Yes I think its very funny when they do that especially with travel boots

So the explanation for that is the whole of the skin on the leg is innervated with different nerves to different regions some of these regions are wired into the limb motor control system. For example there is an anti tripping reflex that works by lifting up the leg quickly if anything touches the skin above the foot on the front of the leg. So when you put boots on, the horse automatically reacts to their feel on the skin - (presumably this would help walking through long grass etc.), eventually the horse just ignores the feeling even though its still there. I didn't notice a reaction adding weight to the hoof but the weight didn't contact any skin so that fits. I don't remember seeing any reaction adding weight to a brushing boot but the horses wore brushing boots quite often so they didn't find moving in them strange.

 

[dieseldog]

With weighted boots for jumping you should put them on just before you go in the ring. I don't know how they work but they do, and even event horses who usually have 5 fences down will dramatically improve. If you don't like weighted boots put on a pair of back eskradons done up tight.

 

[Beanyowner]

Now thats interesting?!? What are a pair of boots done up tight going to do?!? Do they seem to improve the limb action over fences? Surely most boots tend to have elastic bits so only a certain amount of 'tightness' can be gained. Also wouldn't have thought this woud have any affect due to the fact that if its on too tight could it hinder the action of the tendons which most horse owners know are reasonably close to the skin?? Could the squeezing of the tissue restrict circulation or would they not be on that tight?? Could also hinder the fetlock action which would reduce action and mobility...

hmmmm.

 

[MissDeMeena]

haven't read all posts.. will do later.. as i'm thinking of buying a pair!!
Someone gave me a short demo.. horse stood still/walking off normal... horse stood still, place weighted boot on hind leg, walks forward with higher leg action.. i was then told you can vary this with how tight you put the boot on, ie the tighter you do the boot up, the more leg action you'll get (instead of having to put more weight in)...

 

[puddicat]

OK now I'm really interested! Its all sounding a bit scary because putting on boots tightly and weighting the legs are both things that are just inadvisable from an injury perspective, regardless of what else happens. Sometimes you can get a desired effect by doing something undesirable and if the undesirable bit is not immediately obvious people do it.

The tightness thing suggests it's working by interfering with the mechanism that gets the leg out of the way if you're about to fall over something. I would imagine that only works for a short period before the horse inhibits it. Having the horse ignore that mechanism would not be good if it really did over something -but I'm speculating now! Does anyone know how much weight we're talking about? A horse's foot weight about 1kg so you're sort of adding an extra foot for every kg.

 

[so03]

I know someone who uses weight in their horses boots.

They are put on when training over showjumps. The horse gets used to the weight of their legs.

So when you take the weights out when jumping in competitions the horses use the same amount of strength to lift their legs over the fence, thus their legs will go higher as they weigh less. Does that make sense?

 

[puddicat]

Well basically yes but I think there might be two big reasons (and a few smaller reasons) why it doesn't work like that.

First is that its not safe to assume that a horse will make any alteration in how it 'tries' to move its legs as a result of putting weighted boots on. If you follow the argument that a horse likes its legs to move in a particular way then you would expect that after the boots had been fitted, then horse moves its legs in the same way as without the boots - ie it uses its muscles to compensate for the weight of the boot. This isn't what happens, its well known that weighting the hoof alters the action. So I'm not convinced that the horse 'learns' anything when weighted boots are fitted. It might not even be possible for the horse to make a muscular compensation even if its wanted to - but that's another issue. MissDeMeena said she saw an effect emmediately after the boots were fitted - that's too fast to be due to learning.

Second, and this is an issue that applies to training aids, is that when the aid is removed the animal reverts back to its original behaviour pretty quickly. How quickly? a small number of strides. Easily less than it takes to get to the first fence. This again is an extension of the resoning that you've used to predict a learning response in the first place: The idea that a horse will use more strength to pick up its legs with a weight on implies that the aim of the horse is to achieve a certain type of movement. If this was true then it would work in either direction - when the boots were removed the horse would reduce its effort to achieve the desired movement. The issue then is 'how long does the compensation take' and various reasons - eg its good to be adaptable - the answer is that it doesn't take very long. A good example of this is the amount of time it takes a horse to get used to wearing travel boots.

 

[so03]

Well all I know is that the person who uses these boots has very good results. How they work I do not know as I've not really looked into it that closely. That was the explanation I was given.

If it stops them rapping their horses, like so many others do then weighted boots are a good thing. Not saying that the person I know raps their horse. Don't think she'd dream of it.

 

[legend]

I don't know of anyone that uses weighted boots, but i do know someone that has suggested using a type of (how can i describe this so it makes sense....

) sausage boot thing. It comprises of a spur strap or similar, with curb chains looped onto it, fastened around the fetlock to make them more aware of that hind leg. Its not heavy, and thus hopefully wouldn't have the same added injury risk, but in view of what you've explained about the way they learn/adapt, is it unlikely to be of any benefit?