Welcome to HHO Towing Clinic

Wigglypigs

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ROG I thought they stopped you being allowed to 'supervise' a learner with L-plates if you only had a pre 97 licence recently? I thought it was changed to only people who had sat their test or is this just in relation to 7.5 ton lorrries?
Will check weights and get back to you.
 

ROG

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Very interesting post. I have my HGV license C&C1 can i tow with this license or do i need to take another test? Thanks
A '+E' on the end of a category is require to tow anything over 750 kgs EXCEPT in the case of 'B' where certain strict allowances are made

If you have a pre 97 licence then you have B+E and C1+E with a restriction code only allowing a maximum combined MAM of 8.25 tonnes but we won't go into that unless you wish to .....
 

ROG

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ROG I thought they stopped you being allowed to 'supervise' a learner with L-plates if you only had a pre 97 licence recently? I thought it was changed to only people who had sat their test or is this just in relation to 7.5 ton lorrries?
Will check weights and get back to you.
Pre 97 supervising restrictions were placed on C1. C1E D1 D1E but not on B+E

Quite a few training sites got that mixed up and some are still giving false info on it

I would need if you can find them -
1 - What licence you hold - I know that is B
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer
 

sallybush

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Seems there is a lot of confusion over how to find the relevant figures, so here's a couple of pics:

Vehicle VIN plate:
Can be either a metal plate, or a sticker, usually found on the slam panel (between the headlights) under the bonnet, or on the door frame on either the passenger or drivers door, sometimes you will even find it under a plastic flap in the front footwell carpet. Don't confuse with the sticker giving you the various tyre pressures for all the different sized tyres that may have been fitted to your vehicle. It will usually be smaller than the one pictured, with just the chassis number, and four lines of figures. They are not normally labelled so the order is important.


IMG_0973 by Ollie and Sally, on Flickr

Trailer chassis plate:
Lots simpler, in this case the MAM (aka Gross weight) is 3000kg. Do not confuse with the plate that may riveted directly to the hitch/handbrake mechanism as this is often higher than the trailer, and indicates the design limit of the hitch and not the trailer.


IMG_0991 by Ollie and Sally, on Flickr

If you don't have a chassis plate and want to use the tyre load rating, look for a number, usually in the range of 80-100, this is the rating. It will be in the format similar to 165/75 R14 84T, 84 being the load rating. You really should look for the plate though, as the tyres can often carry more than the trailer and it suspension is designed for.

Whilst you are looking at the tyres, you may as well look for the date code as its important and normally overlooked! Its recommended trailer tyres are changed at five years old as they degrade and perish before they wear out. I left mine until they were six years old, thinking that as the trailer had spent 4 of its 6 years in under cover storage, they would be good. They were not, three of the four were dangerously degraded and had bulged, but with no obvious signs of perishing. The tyre below is meant to be perfectly flat, and the previous weekend I had driven three hours on the motorway with the tyres like this:


IMAG0297 by Ollie and Sally, on Flickr

The date code is sometimes hard to find, but should be in the format "DOT 3207". 3207 being the 32nd week of 2007. If you have a three digit number, DOT274, your tyres are pre 2000, making them a minimum of 11 years old. Scary!

Hope this helps :)

If ROG or Tallyho want to copy this into one of their early postings on p.1 then feel free.
 
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ROG

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License b
Empty weight of car = 1525 minimum so could be a little more
Gvw = 2050
Towing max = 2000
Trailer mam = 1600
Trailer weight = 767
This needs a B+E licence because 2050+1600=3650 which is more than the 3500 legal max for B and the MAM of the trailer (1600) is more than the empty weight of the car (1525+ poss a little bit)

If you get the trailer downplated to 1450 which would mean it could carry only 683 then that would be legal for a B licence

What is the weight of your horse and the other stuff that you load into the trailer?
 

brown tack

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This needs a B+E licence because 2050+1600=3650 which is more than the 3500 legal max for B and the MAM of the trailer (1600) is more than the empty weight of the car (1525+ poss a little bit)

If you get the trailer downplated to 1450 which would mean it could carry only 683 then that would be legal for a B licence

What is the weight of your horse and the other stuff that you load into the trailer?
Thank you so much for your help rog, really opened my eyes to a few things.

Was thinking about swapping my disco in for a freelander IF it was 100% safe and legal to tow a single without doing the trailer test. But it's not so going to stick with my disco and save like mad to take the test, then I could get a double trailer too.

Weight of horse is 550kg
No tack at present as baby, but wanted to show him before breaking, so debating to get him broken first or to take test first.
:D
 

sallybush

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No problem ROG, here's a pic (borrowed from someone else) I realised I wasn't clear in my earlier post, the date code won't necessarily have 'DOT' in front of it, it could have any combination of letters, which I think is a combination of manufacturer and batch codes. Whilst looking for a pic I found a couple that didn't have any letters. The tyre in the pic below is 3103, i.e. 31st week of 2003, making it approximately 8 years old. The five year recommendation is just for trailers/caravans as far as I know, car tyres tend to last longer as they are in constant use.


071114-tyreP1150398 by slurp, on Flickr
 
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birchave0

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1 - What licence they hold - B or BE - B
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1964kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2600kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 5900kg/3300kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 2000kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 800kg
 

ROG

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1 - What licence they hold - B
2 - Unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle - 1964kg
3 - GVW of the towing vehicle - 2600kg
4 - GTW and/or towing capacity of the towing vehicle - 5900kg/3300kg
5 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating on the tyres - 2000kg
6 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer - 800kg
ILLEGAL on a B licence

Reasons -
GVW 2600 + MAM 2000 = 4600 which is more than the 3500 allowed
Being nit-picky here .... the 2000 MAM is 36 more than the 1964 unladen weight

Perfectly legal on a B+E licence
If I had that towing vehicle with a B+E then I would get a 3500 MAM trailer so I could load it up to 3300 actual weight
 

birchave0

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ILLEGAL on a B licence

Reasons -
GVW 2600 + MAM 2000 = 4600 which is more than the 3500 allowed
Being nit-picky here .... the 2000 MAM is 36 more than the 1964 unladen weight

Perfectly legal on a B+E licence
If I had that towing vehicle with a B+E then I would get a 3500 MAM trailer so I could load it up to 3300 actual weight
the above details are actually for an Isuzu Trooper SWB with a Sinclair trailer.
I was under the impression that as long as the combination was under 3500kg, with the tow car being heavier than the trailer it's towing you were not breaking any laws? Even with one horse in (500kg) the trailer would be 1300kg so lighter than the 1964kg of the unladen Trooper?
Therefore the weight at a weighbridge would be around 3365kg taking into account driver, fuel, tack?
What if the trailer has no data plate on it?

sorry for all the questions :)
 

ROG

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the above details are actually for an Isuzu Trooper SWB with a Sinclair trailer.
I was under the impression that as long as the combination was under 3500kg, with the tow car being heavier than the trailer it's towing you were not breaking any laws? Even with one horse in (500kg) the trailer would be 1300kg so lighter than the 1964kg of the unladen Trooper?
Therefore the weight at a weighbridge would be around 3365kg taking into account driver, fuel, tack?
What if the trailer has no data plate on it?

sorry for all the questions :)
No probs with all the Qs - happy to help

A trailer with no plate will go on the the load rating listed on the tyres
http://www.rotationuk.com/gbu0-display/tyre_load_ratings.html
A trailer with 4 tyres rated at 82 will work out to 4x475=1900 MAM

3365 may be the actual weight when on a weighbridge but that is not what is required in law
The law requires the GVW and the MAM to be added together to give the answer in regards to the 3500 limit when towing on a B licence

The law says that the plated MAM weight must not be more than the towing vehicle unlden weight when towing on a B licence so although the actual weight might be less, that is not the criteria which needs to be followed

Actual weights and MAM weights are totally different - perhaps thinking that MAM weights are what the total weight could possibly be if loaded to legal capacity might help
 

brown tack

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Rig could you find us all some example combinations that do work on just a b licesnce, just so all have something to compare with?
 

birchave0

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No probs with all the Qs - happy to help

A trailer with no plate will go on the the load rating listed on the tyres
http://www.rotationuk.com/gbu0-display/tyre_load_ratings.html
A trailer with 4 tyres rated at 82 will work out to 4x475=1900 MAM

3365 may be the actual weight when on a weighbridge but that is not what is required in law
The law requires the GVW and the MAM to be added together to give the answer in regards to the 3500 limit when towing on a B licence

The law says that the plated MAM weight must not be more than the towing vehicle unlden weight when towing on a B licence so although the actual weight might be less, that is not the criteria which needs to be followed

Actual weights and MAM weights are totally different - perhaps thinking that MAM weights are what the total weight could possibly be if loaded to legal capacity might help
so where does the below come into it?

Category
Description
Minimum age

B
Motor vehicles with a MAM of up to 3,500 kg, no more than eight passenger seats, with or without a trailer - weighing no more than 750 kg
17*

B
As category B but with a trailer weighing more than 750 kg. The total weight of the vehicle and the trailer together can’t weigh more than 3,500 kg. The weight of the trailer, when fully loaded, can’t weigh more than the unladen weight of the vehicle
17*

The above is straight off the DVLA Website.Not a mention of manufacturers plates .Its purely done on the physical weights.

I have cut and pasted from another thread, again I'm sorry for all the questions but I still can't understand why they state something on a website which is not true... :(
 

Wigglypigs

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Finally got the weights for my own set up ( i only have B licence but other half has sat his trailer test so we will use him)
1 - BE
2 - 1875kg (listed as the kerb weight is this correct?)
3 - 2950kg
4 - 3000kg towing capacity
5 - 2300kg is listed as the gross weight of the trailer (bateson deauville)
6 - 860kg

Im pretty certain this is well within the limits HOWEVER the towing vechicle is my OH's company 'car' (Isuzu Denver Rodeo twin cab). Does he need to be using a tachogragh when towing even though its personal use?
 

ROG

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Rig could you find us all some example combinations that do work on just a b licesnce, just so all have something to compare with?
I know you meant ROG - LOL

I can make up an example of a legal B licence towing set up if that helps

Towing vehicle -
unladen = 1525
GVW = 1900
Towing capacity = 1600
Trailer -
MAM = 1500
unladen = 500

1500 is under 1525 so that complies with the rule that says the MAM of the trailer must no more than the unladen weight of the towing vehicle

GVW 1900 + MAM 1500 = 3400 so that is under the 3500 maximum

loading the trailer with a capable max of 1000 (1500-500=1000) gives the trailer an actual weight of 1500 which is within the towing capacity of 1600
Towing capacity being the actual weight which the vehicle can tow behind it

Does that help?
 

ROG

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so where does the below come into it?

Category
Description
Minimum age

B
Motor vehicles with a MAM of up to 3,500 kg, no more than eight passenger seats, with or without a trailer - weighing no more than 750 kg
17*
3500 MAM or commonly called GVW is the maximum that a category B vehice can weigh

B
As category B but with a trailer weighing more than 750 kg. The total weight of the vehicle and the trailer together can’t weigh more than 3,500 kg. The weight of the trailer, when fully loaded, can’t weigh more than the unladen weight of the vehicle
17*
They do not make clear that the 3500 is the GVW/MAM of the towing vehicle added to the MAM of the trailer but they do if you go to the other links on that site

The above is straight off the DVLA Website.Not a mention of manufacturers plates .Its purely done on the physical weights.

I have cut and pasted from another thread, again I'm sorry for all the questions but I still can't understand why they state something on a website which is not true... :(
This is the Gov site you want -
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_10013073
Category B: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM and with up to eight passenger seats

Category B vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM.
For example:


•a vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.25 tonnes could be driven by the holder of a category B entitlement. This is because the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and also the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle

Whereas


•the same vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes when coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.5 tonnes would fall within category B+E. This is because although the combined weight of the vehicle and trailer is within the 3.5 tonnes MAM limit, the MAM of the trailer is more than the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle
•Vehicle manufacturers normally recommend a maximum weight of trailer appropriate to their vehicle. Details can usually be found in the vehicle's handbook or obtained from car dealerships. The size of the trailer recommended for an average family car with an unladen weight of around 1 tonne would be well within the new category B threshold.

Note that they say that the combination of the MAMs must not exceed 3.5 tonnes (3500 kgs) and those MAMs or GVWs are that of the towing vehicle added to that of the trailer

The towing capacity is the actual weight which the vehicle maker says is the maximum that its vehicle can tow and makes no reference to any trailer MAM because the maker/manufacturer does not care what the MAM of a trailer is - as far as they are concerned the trailer might be 'capable' of being loaded to its full weight listed on the MAM plate, say 3500, but they are telling the vehicle owner that the vehicle cannoot tow more than an actual weight of say 2000

hope that helps
 

ROG

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Finally got the weights for my own set up ( i only have B licence but other half has sat his trailer test so we will use him)
1 - BE
2 - 1875kg (listed as the kerb weight is this correct?)
3 - 2950kg
4 - 3000kg towing capacity
5 - 2300kg is listed as the gross weight of the trailer (bateson deauville)
6 - 860kg

Im pretty certain this is well within the limits HOWEVER the towing vechicle is my OH's company 'car' (Isuzu Denver Rodeo twin cab). Does he need to be using a tachogragh when towing even though its personal use?
No tachgraph when used for private towing if the total MAM/GVW of the combination is under 7.5 tonnes (7500 kgs) - yours is 5250 - that exemption is in the EU regulations

That set up deffo needs a B+E licence because 2300 is more than 1875 and 2950+2300=5250 which is more than 3500
You could get a trailer plated at 3500 MAM for that set up as long as it was never loaded to more than 3000 actual weight for the towing capacity
 

Flummoxed

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This is all like a foreign language to me - or perhaps I'm just a bit dim.

Rog, if I give you the following, perhaps you could pass comment for me please: -

1) B & E
2) 2275
3) 3030
4) 3500
5)1905
6)905

Thanks very much.
 

Wigglypigs

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ROG you are a star. I'm going to get my trailer test done as soon as we get conformation from OH's work that I can drive and tow using his car.
I have another set up question however I am struggling to find the car details online
Driver would be driving with L-Plates with suitable supervising person.
Her car is a 06reg diesel 5door freelander TD4.
Trailer is a new IW HB506 so has a MAM of 2600 and an unladen weight of 920kg.
Would only ever be towing one horse weighing about 650kg.

Her issue is more about the capacity of her freelander to be legal to tow that trailer and horse. She is preparing to sit her trailer test but needs to practice first.
 

ROG

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This is all like a foreign language to me
That is why this thread was set up:D

1) B & E
2) 2275
3) 3030
4) 3500
5)1905
6)905
Legal for B+E

With a towing capacity of 3500 you could hitch up any trailer up to 3500 MAM (legal limit for towing with any B class vehicle), load it to its max and still be perfectly legal
The only safety advice I would give if you did that would be to make sure that the towing vehicle is capable of controlling a trailer which is physically heavier than the towing vehicle
 

ROG

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I have another set up question however I am struggling to find the car details online
Driver would be driving with L-Plates with suitable supervising person.
Her car is a 06reg diesel 5door freelander TD4.
Trailer is a new IW HB506 so has a MAM of 2600 and an unladen weight of 920kg.
Would only ever be towing one horse weighing about 650kg.

Her issue is more about the capacity of her freelander to be legal to tow that trailer and horse. She is preparing to sit her trailer test but needs to practice first.
http://www.getcarspecs.com/land-rover/2007-land-rover-freelander-20-td4-automatic
If I have found the right model then - Towing weight = 1800
920+650=1570 so well within the towing limit for the vehicle
The max the trailer could be loaded with is 880 (880+920=1800)

CAVEAT - assuming I have found the correct model
 

sallybush

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I don't think anyone will find a combination of horsebox and 4x4 that is legal under a post '97 'B' license.
It is possible with something lighter than a 4x4, such as a large saloon or estate like the Mondeo, but any front wheel drive car will normally get stuck on wet grass with a horsebox, you can even find yourself stuck on wet tarmac when faced with a hill start.
 

ROG

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I don't think anyone will find a combination of horsebox and 4x4 that is legal under a post '97 'B' license.
It is possible with something lighter than a 4x4, such as a large saloon or estate like the Mondeo, but any front wheel drive car will normally get stuck on wet grass with a horsebox, you can even find yourself stuck on wet tarmac when faced with a hill start.
http://www.kia.co.uk/new-cars/range...ge/specification/technical-specification.aspx
2.0 Petrol AWD
unladen 1655
GVW 2030
Towing capacity 1600

Can a trailer be found for that which could be plated (or downplated) to 1470 and weighs no more than about 700 so it could carry a large horse plus water etc??
 

ROG

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Many members only have a B licence so is this set-up a good idea using an AWD car and a trailer so they can tow within the remit of their licence?

CAR
2.0 Petrol AWD
unladen 1655
GVW 2030
Towing capacity 1600

TRAILER
MAM = 1600 but downplate to 1470
Unladen = 770
700 loading capacity available (1470-770=700)

This set-up ticks all the legal boxes but what about practically?
 
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