Welfare case - what more can we do?

[JillA]

Horses belonging to a local well known stud are in a pretty bad way (if you know where I am you might put two and two together) and have been being actioned by welfare organisations since I reported them before Christmas. This isn't the first time either.
They are neglected, bad feet, deep muddy fields, hay (and not much of it) chucked in the mud, dirty water, none stabled although the facilities are there. None are badly emaciated but all are poor and in need of much more care. Owner is too old but in complete denial, blaming everyone else for what is after all her responsibility.
BHS Welfare started the ball rolling and got RSPCA and WHW involved several months ago. They have visited numerous times, given her certain things which must be done by a set deadline. But when they visit and find none of it has been done, they just repeat the process. These horses have been badly let down by the system, still suffering three months on and no-one seems able or willing to escalate it to help them.
I have threatened to contact the local press, but am reluctant in case it compromises any future action. Any ideas of what else?

 

[Shay]

I'm not so confident in RSPCA but if WHW have not removed the horses then I would presume that they do not (yet) lack the basic care which the law requires. I can't see that going to the press would help the horses at all. Perhaps call the WHW local officer and ask them for an update?

 

[The Xmas Furry]

I'd be rattling WHW and also BHS welfare on this, asking for updates.
Get both to re-open this case if nothing been done recently. Unfortunately in some areas the 2 mentioned don't work well at local level, but keep bashing on at BHS HQ as they appear to have got ball rolling initially. Good luck!

 

[meleeka]

Try your local Environmental Health Animal Welfare Officer. The charities seem to do so much more if AH get involved and request.

If they are that bad you really don't want them stabled. A horse died by me because it was stabled and not fed.

 

[AmyMay]

I'd probably go back to BHS Welfare too and start making noises there.

Good luck

 

[ycbm]

I'd go to the press. A conviction is unlikely to succeed of RSPCA and WHW aren't getting the horses removed.

A friend gave this stud (I think) a mare several years ago and I was horrified that she did it when she told me the poor condition the existing mares were in.

 

[JillA]

Thanks all - from my (very many) regular enquiries of the BHS Welfare volunteer, RSPCA and WHW are the executive organisations dealing. I have no faith whatsoever in RSPCA since the only contact is the call centre, but WHW is another matter. One of the senior managers used to run courses at a local college so I may ask him to look into it, (if I can contact him). Otherwise I have contacts in the Legacy section and am a life member so might badger them more than a bit.
The owner draws herself up to her full height and talks down to people, I suspect she has intimidated them on a regular basis. Presumably a senior manager will know how to deal with her

 

[Merlod]

IF the neglect warrants I would take pictures and post to social media, the rspca don't like negative attention and to be seen in a bad light by the public so it may make them step up and do something. It has worked before.

 

[Goldenstar]

It may be they just fall into the inadequate crack of not good enough care but not bad enough to remove .
Very hard when that happens the owners sharp learn you think you can't seize them and act accordingly.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Gosh, is this woman still at it? There have been concerns about her horses for many years, haven't there. She must be mentally ill. I'm sure she would come across as very intimidating, and would doubtless name drop her connections in high places to any investigating agency.

Not sure what to suggest, though .

 

[tristar]

the only way is to go in there and ....change the water clean the troughs, make sure there is hay at all times..... get the farrier out... do whatever they need doing ...in the dark if nec...the horses welfare comes first.. you have to be as strong as they are in denial.. shame the rspca and whw take loads of photos send to them...state of field trough and feet etc...what do they think people are donating money for? and take worm count samples.

sometimes you have to go all the way, or lead the way, the scales of balance are between being brave enough to go the extra step or leave the horses to suffer, this has gone on too long, a week is too long.

if they can be defiant enough to do the wrong thing you can be moved enough to do the right thing

 

[Goldenstar]

I don't know who it is but it always gets where are her family in all this ?
Why don't they do something .

 

[JillA]

the only way is to go in there and ....change the water clean the troughs, make sure there is hay at all times..... get the farrier out... do whatever they need doing ...in the dark if nec...the horses welfare comes first..
if they can be defiant enough to do the wrong thing you can be moved enough to do the right thing

No, that is absolutely the wrong thing to do - I was told that by WHW years ago. It masks the problem but doesn't solve it, those horses will be just as bad once you stop.
And other than a husband who is even older than she is, has heart problems but does what he can, she has no family, certainly no next generation

 

[Cecile]

If this has been going on for so long, I should imagine its time to up the anti
If this woman is intimidating to the charity organisations its about time they sent in someone who knows how to handle the situation
If its just a borderline situation and not bad enough to take in the troops maybe a group of locals could offer their time or help to clean troughs, put out hay etc

I used to become angry about such things until I realised that people get in trouble or their situation changes, they try burying their head in the sand or can't see the wood from the tree's, sometimes it just takes one person to help and get the ball rolling and the horses life becomes so much better

How about asking for a meeting with one of the charity's dealing or seems to me not dealing with this situation and trash it out with them

I have also met people who say its a welfare problem (Not aimed at you OP) and a few issues just need addressing, its well known that some people think if a head collar looks tatty, a rug is ripped some people will overreact and not to mention they are not being fed when the people can't see the hay from the pathway. Just as an example years ago my old neighbour had someone bashing her door screaming and shouting about how cruel she was as she had apparently deliberately tied a bucket to a ponies head and was not letting the pony eat or drink!
It was a grazing muzzle............

 

[tristar]

err... its been going on for years?????

how many years longer?????????

 

[Goldenstar]

No, that is absolutely the wrong thing to do - I was told that by WHW years ago. It masks the problem but doesn't solve it, those horses will be just as bad once you stop.
And other than a husband who is even older than she is, has heart problems but does what he can, she has no family, certainly no next generation

It's th wrong thing to do if the charities are working towards removing the horses if they are not it makes no difference .
I would be tempted ( I know who it is now )if I where you to talk or email or both to the welfare office at stoneleigh take pictures if you can and send them in .
I think the only way they will find a way forward is the bring pressure to bear on her from the great and the good .
OP is the owner financially ok do you know is it her mind that's disordered ?
Talk again to the BHS county welfare officer and the county chairman as well .
Get your friends to take a look and get them to ring as well .

 

[DD]

Horses belonging to a local well known stud are in a pretty bad way (if you know where I am you might put two and two together) and have been being actioned by welfare organisations since I reported them before Christmas. This isn't the first time either.
They are neglected, bad feet, deep muddy fields, hay (and not much of it) chucked in the mud, dirty water, none stabled although the facilities are there. None are badly emaciated but all are poor and in need of much more care. Owner is too old but in complete denial, blaming everyone else for what is after all her responsibility.
BHS Welfare started the ball rolling and got RSPCA and WHW involved several months ago. They have visited numerous times, given her certain things which must be done by a set deadline. But when they visit and find none of it has been done, they just repeat the process. These horses have been badly let down by the system, still suffering three months on and no-one seems able or willing to escalate it to help them.
I have threatened to contact the local press, but am reluctant in case it compromises any future action. Any ideas of what else?

Start a facebook page about it preferably with lots of photos. encourage people to keep reporting it to the RSPCA WHW etc. Tell the tabloid papers get the media involved ring the BBc get them to put it on the local news and radio. there is a FB site called Save the Papermill Horses. it took some time but eventually some were removed and placed in care.

 

[JillA]

Update:-
What on earth..................in the midst of being under investigation she has GONE ON HOLIDAY!!! Leaving her gardener/handyman in charge And I thought there was no contact no in case of emergencies, however...............
Friend of mine who used to work for her took me to see one of the mares with a badly overgrown foot, and I sent a photo to my trimmer to get his opinion on what was going on with the bones inside. He thought it was fairly easily recoverable and offered to trim her FOC but the welfare organisations said not to do anything without her permission and he was understandably worried about litigation, although we would all like to help the poor mare. On the chance there was someone on the yard from time to time ex worker rang the main number and it was diverted to the husbands voicemail, so he left a message saying if she was happy for him to do it we could do it this week.
She responded (voicemail again) accusing him of being up to no good, saying he was under no circumstances to touch any of her horses and to leave that mare alone!!! You really can't help some people, but really we want to help the mare and the welfare people have served her with improvement notices time after time and she has done nothing. I just hope they remove the mare - I'm trying to avoid her getting her shot which is well on the cards because all the signs are it is improvable. Welfare people are being bullied by her and meanwhile not much has improved, although the condition of the outliers is better, she has obviously given the gardener instructions about feeding and watering. And the grass will be growing where the fields aren't totally poached.
I am really wondering about her mental capacity

 

[honetpot]

Having seen how people neglect themselves, despite the advice from health professionals, social workers and council officials I am not really surprised at her attitude. Help and advice is see as interference. While they are not actually starved and in any pain its a stale mate. to remove the mare they would have to prosecute, which costs money and if they lose it goes back and they have to pay her costs.

I would think, 'going behind her back', would rile her even more, you only have to watch a programme like 'Hoarders', to see how angry trying to help can make people if they do not see it as help. I would back off as trying to do anything while she is not is not going win her over.

 

[Sandstone1]

Have you tried contacting red wings. I've found them helpful. Post on the Facebook page of the charities involved.

 

[Goldenstar]

It's hard to judge of course without seeing the horses of course but improvement notices have no teeth unless the owner wants to work with the charities
If someone digs their heels in then it gets harder and harder to get anywhere sometimes the more you go the harder it gets to present a case well.
It's likely the charities think it's dubious they can get a case strong enough to be pretty sure of winning
As for the foot I know you mean well but the trimmer can't just go about doing horses feet without permission

 

[JillA]

Have you tried contacting red wings. I've found them helpful. Post on the Facebook page of the charities involved.

I'm in regular touch with the BHS welfare volunteer and WHW both of whom have involved RSPCA. I think another welfare organisation might make it too complex - the WHW Field Officer was on leave but I have left a message for her to ring me, she was enormously helpful when I last spoke to her. By all accounts they are up to their ears in cases far worse ATM

 

[lamlyn2012]

If I remember rightly, JillA, last year when things started to grow there was more ragwort than grass.
Another reason for action to be taken though.
I'll have a good look next time I pass that way and if I don't like what I see I'll report it too in the hope it will help the cause.

 

[JillA]

If I remember rightly, JillA, last year when things started to grow there was more ragwort than grass.
Another reason for action to be taken though.
I'll have a good look next time I pass that way and if I don't like what I see I'll report it too in the hope it will help the cause.

Thanks - for some reason the ones by the main road only have the bare paddock to graze when the other half is reasonably green. I also photographed a paddock full of sycamore seedlings, fortunately not being grazed atm but probably will be before too long

She's been offered a small sum for each mare, considering they are more or less unhandled, but she has refused to even discuss, preferring to spend £hundreds having them put down, all 19 of them.

 

[Goldenstar]

Thanks - for some reason the ones by the main road only have the bare paddock to graze when the other half is reasonably green. I also photographed a paddock full of sycamore seedlings, fortunately not being grazed atm but probably will be before too long

She's been offered a small sum for each mare, considering they are more or less unhandled, but she has refused to even discuss, preferring to spend £hundreds having them put down, all 19 of them.

There's no welfare issue with putting the horses down ,she's the owner if she chooses to end the situation that way that's her choice many people would think that would be preferable to the horses moving on in an uncertain world .

 

[jumping.jack_flash]

Do you have the blue cross near you? They were fantastic in a case near me . .RSPCA were useless! . . . Crossing fingers for you. X

 

[respectedpony driver]

I hope these poor horses get help soon,has anyone tried Hillside?Good luck,If I knew where this woman lived I would have a go at sorting it out,she def.wouldnt put me off.

 

[JillA]

It's hard to judge of course without seeing the horses of course but improvement notices have no teeth unless the owner wants to work with the charities

That isn't true. According to the Animal Welfare Act failure to comply with improvement notices within the specified time is deemed to fall under Section 9(1) "A person commits an offence if he does not take such steps as are reasonable in all the circumstances to ensure that the needs of an animal for which he is responsible are met to the extent required by good practice."
Those needs are the five freedoms, including freedom from suffering. S4 "(1) A person commits an offence if— (a) an act of his, or a failure of his to act, causes an animal to suffer, (b) he knew, or ought reasonably to have known, that the act, or failure to act, would have that effect or be likely to do so, (c) the animal is a protected animal, and (d) the suffering is unnecessary"
The relevant section is S10, and they have already extended the period three times. RSPCA seem to be reluctant to enforce it, and it is well known she has the gift of the gab. The whole purpose of the Act though is that the animals needs are paramount. The pressure IMHO needs to be applied to RSPCA, but they are hard to contact direct.

 

[ycbm]

That isn't true. According to the Animal Welfare Act failure to comply with improvement notices within the specified time is deemed to fall under Section 9(1) "A person commits an offence if he does not take such steps as are reasonable in all the circumstances to ensure that the needs of an animal for which he is responsible are met to the extent required by good practice."
Those needs are the five freedoms, including freedom from suffering. S4 "(1) A person commits an offence if— (a) an act of his, or a failure of his to act, causes an animal to suffer, (b) he knew, or ought reasonably to have known, that the act, or failure to act, would have that effect or be likely to do so, (c) the animal is a protected animal, and (d) the suffering is unnecessary"
The relevant section is S10, and they have already extended the period three times. RSPCA seem to be reluctant to enforce it, and it is well known she has the gift of the gab. The whole purpose of the Act though is that the animals needs are paramount. The pressure IMHO needs to be applied to RSPCA, but they are hard to contact direct.

Doesn't your answer prove Goldenstar was right in the first place?

 

[ycbm]

Thanks - for some reason the ones by the main road only have the bare paddock to graze when the other half is reasonably green. I also photographed a paddock full of sycamore seedlings, fortunately not being grazed atm but probably will be before too long
m.

This isn't illegal. A friend of mine would have to fell an acre of woodland in order not to do the same. She'd be pretty mad if you came round photographing her fields!

You need to keep your fight to the things that really matter, or you will dilute the effect of your campaigning for these horses.

I think you also need to accept that being shot would not be a bad end for them, and come to terms with this being a likely result of your efforts to help them.