What action does a hanging snaffle give?

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Tangaroo

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I am thinking of trying my coloured boy (in my sig) in a hanging snaffle. He presently goes in a very thin single jointed snaffle. He is quite heavy in my hand and will eventually give me a soft contact after about 10mins but even then its sometimes hard to keep it consistent. I have tried him in mylers, french links, kk ultras, JP snaffles, and the thin single joint is what he goes best in. I just wondered what sort of action a hanging snaffle has and whether it might make a difference. I have had him 10 yrs since he was just broken and he has always been the same, its not for want of trying different things. He is quite thick set through the jaw so doesnt find it easy to be flexible. He wears a flash noseband and taking the flash off isnt an option cos he gets his tongue over the bit! What ever bit it is. (Another trait he has had all his life) He has his teeth done every 10months so thats not a problem
 
Hanging Cheek

The Hanging Cheek is also known as the Filet Baucher. It uses pressure on the poll as the cheek piece has an extra ring above the snaffle ring where the bridle cheek pieces are attached to, this poll pressure encourages the horse to lower the head and come on to the bit especially useful for horses that have a high head carriage. This cheek has proven one of the most popular cheeks with various mouthpieces. It is a fixed cheek bit, which may be useful for horses that are unsure of the bit, as it doesn’t move around too much in the mouth. It may prove a suitable alternative to a snaffle, for children riding ponies that need an extra bit of help to stop, or horses that are slightly too strong in a snaffle.
 
###########**********Big QI style noises**************#########

Sorry, but there is no poll pressure exerted with a hanging cheek. You can only get poll pressure with leverage, and as the rein is level with the mouth there is none (but for some reason it is an old-wives-tail that is does).

The hanging cheek does provide a very stable and secure contact as the rein attaches at a differnt point to the cheek peices. So lots of horses like it and will take a better contact as a result.

I have the 5 yr old in one (french link happy mouth), as she was very fussy in the mouth and it has been a wonder-bit for her and she takes a lovely contact in it.
 
zxp said:
###########**********Big QI style noises**************#########

Sorry, but there is no poll pressure exerted with a hanging cheek. You can only get poll pressure with leverage, and as the rein is level with the mouth there is none (but for some reason it is an old-wives-tail that is does).
Click to expand...

Really sorry to argue, but this is wrong. EVERYTHING I have read on this clearly states that it DOES give some poll pressure. Not a huge amount, like a Pelham say. But it does give poll pressure.

BTW, I use one with my mare who goes very nicely in it.
 
Haha, no need to argue! But I'm not wrong :p

But 'tis true I'm afraid. The modern research is that it exerts no more poll pressure than a normal snaffle. It is all do do with moments (physics!). And the fact that there is no fixed point bellow the "centre" means that there is no rotation. And no rotation means no "poll pressure". It is all about fulcrum points and leverage. They have tested it with pressure pads and found they exert no more poll pressure than other snaffles.
 
Yup. :)

I don't know how it's gone so wrong but there isn't any poll pressure in a hanging cheek (not all hanging cheeks are Bauchers, just like full cheeks aren't Fulmers but that's another thread . . . :)) and it was certainly not designed to have any. In order to have leverage, the force (rein) must be applied below the fulcrum (mouthpiece) and the lever must have two arms, but this is not the case unless you have a bottom ring or hook which holds the rein "down" the cheek piece. No lower fixation of the rein, no leverage. That's why it is legal for dressage.

The action of the bit can cause the cheekpieces to "balloon" if the horse is not carrying the bit properly (this can happen with many type of fixed cheek bits) but, if you think about it, this is the exact opposite of poll pressure. :)

Weirdly, this idea that it provides leverage is very recent. (Failure of our school systems perhaps? ;) )

The bit was designed for the French Light School (hence named after one of its leading lights) with the idea that, when the horse is going correctly - at least in that school of thought - the bit would hang in the mouth, not rest on the tongue, providing, as close as possible, a completely neutral feel. It's possible this is what some horses like but very few people in our system ride that way, so it's likely more the stability.

It seems to be a common feeling that if a horse is more rideable in a piece of tack it's because it's harsher? Who says? Sometimes you get more flies with honey? The exception is leverage devices - they ALWAYS increase force, thereby making the aid feel lighter to the rider and harsher to the horse.
 
zxp said:
###########**********Big QI style noises**************#########

Sorry, but there is no poll pressure exerted with a hanging cheek. You can only get poll pressure with leverage, and as the rein is level with the mouth there is none (but for some reason it is an old-wives-tail that is does).

The hanging cheek does provide a very stable and secure contact as the rein attaches at a differnt point to the cheek peices. So lots of horses like it and will take a better contact as a result.

I have the 5 yr old in one (french link happy mouth), as she was very fussy in the mouth and it has been a wonder-bit for her and she takes a lovely contact in it.
Click to expand...


Aggree with this wholeheartedly with this, when you use the rien the bit lifts slightly in the mouth relieving tongue pressure slightly this is whe some horses love them so much
 
I ride my 8yo Connemara in a hanging cheek as it gives him stability in the contact and when he's accepting and forward in a correct frame he's as light as air in my hand. I used to ride him in a NS verbindend, trans angled, copper/sweet iron loose ring etc but he just didn't like them where as he does go beautifully in the hanging cheek. Would be interested to try him in a NS baucher though..
A hanging cheek is not a bit which excerts much poll pressure - i believe studies show it to be similar to a regular eggbutt snaffle - the point of rein and point of mouth are level there for there is no rotation and no more pressure implied on the poll.
 
My mare goes happily in an Eggbutt or a hanging cheek.
She definately dosent lean on the HC as much as she does in the eggbutt though.
I think the fact that the tongue pressure is reduced helps this.

Also, shoot me down if you must!!
But, becuase the HC fastens higher on the head, it means I can use it with a FS bridle and not have to upgrade to XF size cheeks (she is a pony as well with a very long Irish head!)
 
one of mine has it for flatwork - he goes very well in it as it maintains a regular contact - but does not, as most people think - give poll pressure as the rein is level with the mouthpiece (as others above have said :) )
 
Why do you never see pure dressage horses in this bit?

Personally if I see a baucher/hanging cheek I expect to see a horse who is not very good in the contact.

I am not a fan and I think it was Carl Hester who at Badminton was going on and on about them saying that the horse could avoid a true contact and being worked into the bridle in a hanging cheek. I see so many horses behind the verticle in them as well.

Stilton have you tried a metal straight bar snaffle? Can often be quite good for horses who sit on your hands?
 
Well, i didnt expect this thread to turn into a debate:o Anyway, thanks for all the advice.
Lec no i havent tried a straight bar snaffle. I might give that a go. I have brought a hanging snaffle home from the saddlery shop i work in just to try, so will give that a try first, but thanks for the tip:)
 
stilton said:
Well, i didnt expect this thread to turn into a debate:o )
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Sorry - that might be me. I dont think the other poster appreciated my QI noises ;)

I am pretty laid back about bits. Whatever works for you ad your horse. But IMHO I find allot of horses with "contact issues" are dramatically aided by the stability of the hanging cheek. It works for us :)
 
Baucher/Fillis/Hanging cheek/Drop cheek
The correct position of the baucher, with the smaller rings attached to the cheekpieces of the bridle.Type of Bit: snaffle

Action: The baucher has an eggbutt-like ring at the mouthpiece for the rein, with an upper cheek that has a ring at its end, to which the cheekpieces of the bridle are attached. The mouthpiece does not slide on its ring (which would have put the bit in the gag bit category instead of the snaffle). This bit lies flat against the horse's face, and is quite fixed in the mouth and concentrates pressure on the bars. This bit results in slight poll pressure.

Advantages: will not be pulled through the mouth.

Mouthpieces: All types.

This has been taken directly from Wikepedia. Are you saying that they are wrong too?
Not wanting to debate/argue
 
There is no debate about the action. ;)

Re wether or not they are 'good' for dressage or not, it us true the bit is not designed for the Modern Competitive school but it's legal and it is used. Dressage people seem to spend a lot of time trying to read judges' minds about what they will think of this or that piece of tack, which I think does inform some people's choices. Carl may indeed have a point but then not everyone rides like Carl or has his type of horses - perhaps there are other situations in which he wouldn't be quite as pedantic. ;) I wouldn't imagine he has many horses going in mullen mouths either. :)

Anyway, to answer the question, the bit is designed to hold the snaffle mouth more still and 'up' in the mouth. As such, it is probably not the ideal bit to teach a horse the soft, elastic carrying of the bit we consider ideal. But experience suggests it can be more comfortable for a horse put off by too much movement, especially here/in dressage, where few people seem keen on full cheek or D ring snaffles.
 
By the way they definitely DO encourage horses behind the vertical/contact/bridle/hand - that is sort of what they are for. So that, of course, must be watched for and guarded against. I'd argue that's exactly why you want to know how any piece of tack works - so you can be mindful of any potential risks or 'false positives'.
 
zxp said:
###########**********Big QI style noises**************#########

Sorry, but there is no poll pressure exerted with a hanging cheek. You can only get poll pressure with leverage, and as the rein is level with the mouth there is none (but for some reason it is an old-wives-tail that is does).
Click to expand...

I agree with this; the rein slides on the large ring, so no poll pressure. Compare with a dutch gag and you'll see the difference. I believe the hanging cheek sits more quietly in the mouth and a lot of horses like this v much.
It's a great bit, but it doesn't work the way a lot of people think it does.
 
Dirtymare said:
Baucher/Fillis/Hanging cheek/Drop cheek
The correct position of the baucher, with the smaller rings attached to the cheekpieces of the bridle.Type of Bit: snaffle

Action: The baucher has an eggbutt-like ring at the mouthpiece for the rein, with an upper cheek that has a ring at its end, to which the cheekpieces of the bridle are attached. The mouthpiece does not slide on its ring (which would have put the bit in the gag bit category instead of the snaffle). This bit lies flat against the horse's face, and is quite fixed in the mouth and concentrates pressure on the bars. This bit results in slight poll pressure.

Advantages: will not be pulled through the mouth.

Mouthpieces: All types.

This has been taken directly from Wikepedia. Are you saying that they are wrong too?
Not wanting to debate/argue
Click to expand...


Yes.

There are many many errors in Wikipedia, this is one of them. Any knowledge of physics should tell you there can be no poll pressure.
 
From Sustainabledressage.net

"This bit is usually falsley described as creating poll pressure. Most baucher bits don't. In order for it to put pressure on the poll, the ring which the rein attaches to, needs to have a drawn-out oblong shape so that the rein stays at a certain position on the ring. If the ring is oblong, the rein will want to stay at one end, and thus pulls this end up towards the hand/rein. If the ring is round, so that the distance from the mouth bars to the rein is constant at all angles, the rein will slide. "
 
Those that say there is no poll pressure with the Hanging Cheek are correct because, as already stated, there is no fixed point for the rein to attach to that is below the mouthpiece. No leverage means no poll pressure.

As a judge I actually see alot of horses competing in them in pure dressage at all levels and they can also be used in conjunction with a weymouth as a double (only seen that once). I personally don't make any judgement about the horses training based on what bit they might be in....a hanging cheek will not make a poorly trained horse do a better test.

Like all bits some horses like them and some hate them...if it works for you then use it, if not then don't.
 
PapaFrita said:
From Sustainabledressage.net

"This bit is usually falsley described as creating poll pressure. Most baucher bits don't. In order for it to put pressure on the poll, the ring which the rein attaches to, needs to have a drawn-out oblong shape so that the rein stays at a certain position on the ring. If the ring is oblong, the rein will want to stay at one end, and thus pulls this end up towards the hand/rein. If the ring is round, so that the distance from the mouth bars to the rein is constant at all angles, the rein will slide. "
Click to expand...

Which would also make it, technically, not a Baucher, although it would be a hanging cheek. ;)

This is also why the Mylers with hooks and various other "fixed rein" set ups are not legal for dressage.
 
TarrSteps said:
By the way they definitely DO encourage horses behind the vertical/contact/bridle/hand - that is sort of what they are for. So that, of course, must be watched for and guarded against. I'd argue that's exactly why you want to know how any piece of tack works - so you can be mindful of any potential risks or 'false positives'.
Click to expand...

Interestingly, YO's horse would often go behind the vertical and was suggested that an ordinary single jointed hanging snaffle would help deter that, I think because of the nutcracker action and the stability of the bit helped him stay in front of the vertical and he went much better with this bit.

Has the half cheek/spoon snaffle gone out of fashion? Was wondering as don't often see them around anymore, although I did see someone using a rugby pelham with roundings which I haven't seen before...!
 
the only way it can exert poll pressure is if you put it on upside down. Yes, I've seen this.
I, too, don't think you can get a true contact with one, I think there's just a bit too much too much movement/bagginess from the hanging cheeks, fwiw. but if it suits the way the rider rides, and the horse goes happily in it, then great.
as for Wikipedia being a reliable resource, hmmmmm. cross-check everything!
 
Just to throw it out there: I know technically it isn't PC but is there any reason you can not used a hanging cheek upside down?
 
They have come to be used synonymously so I am just being pedantic, even for me, but historically it was a very specific single jointed snaffle so technically, you can't have, say, a Baucher waterford. I think it only bothers me because it's someone's specific invention and bears his name.
 
I got shot down, jumped on and set fire to on another forum a couple of years ago for saying a hanging cheek did not exert poll pressure, so have secretly believed myself but never again brought it up publicly. Thanks for making me feel less crazy guys!
 
kerilli said:
the only way it can exert poll pressure is if you put it on upside down.
Click to expand...

It still cannot exert poll pressure as the cheekpiece is then free to rotate around the ring, it is again likely to cause less poll pressure and bag the cheekpieces. All that happens is you rotate the mouthpiece in the mouth.
 
Dee O'Dorant said:
It still cannot exert poll pressure as the cheekpiece is then free to rotate around the ring, it is again likely to cause less poll pressure and bag the cheekpieces. All that happens is you rotate the mouthpiece in the mouth.
Click to expand...

Ah okay, i see your point. Hmm. I was thinking, if it was used with a drop noseband, that would give stability... hmmm.

BooM, as long as the mouthpiece wasn't angled or shaped to use one way and not the other, probably not... but it wouldn't be dr legal i think.
 
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