What are the legalities with wearing a tail ribbon??.

[rema]

After reading the tail ribbon post.With the world the way it is today with sue everybody what are the legalities of if your horse did kick and injure a horse/rider?.Say your out for a good days hunting and someone uses your horse as a buffer because they have no brakes and your horse double barrelled it but your horse was wearing a red tail ribbon but the owner of said horse wanted to claim for vets fees who would the law side with?.Sorry thinking out loud so to speak!. :grin:

 

[woolly]

Depends on the exact situation but to be honest 3rd party insurance is the way ahead. You would have to look at the entire case and details. In the scenario above if there are plenty of witnesses who stated that the horse was out of control that crashed into yours, then you possibly would not be liable. I think anyone who took you to court would be looking at spending a lot of time and effort for minimum results. The Compensation Act 2006 has been introduced to help 'retard' a perception of a compensation culture. The courts are less willing to impose liability if it will prevent people form doing worth while activities and that may be used in defence. I couldn't really say as am not in the slightest way legally qualified.

 

[rema]

I couldn't really say as am not in the slightest way legally qualified.

Maybe you should retrain to do so as that sounded pretty "legal" to me lol.But a good point made.Others might say that a kicker has no right to be out in a "pack" situation where as the chances of being held in a confined space is possible or even probable (sp).

 

[SilverSkye]

I have thought about this myself, my horse is not a kicker under normal circumstances however will not tolerate being used as a buffer by strange horses. I would feel happier hunting her with a red ribbon as a warning to others ( she has never kicked out hunting but really bunches up and feels like she is going to at times) However i do feel i am admitting liability should anything ever happen as i am accepting my horse is a known kicker.
On the big gates at the front of the yard the YO used to have a big 'beware dangerous dog loose' sign but was advised to take it down as if said dog ever bit anyone YO was admitting liability to the fact the dog was potentially dangerous.
Sorry not really answered your question

 

[Maisy]

I'm not really sure that the 'kicker's owner' would be responsible, as any horse *could* kick when used as a buffer! I would think, however, that the 'done thing' is that a known kicker should be at the back, or certainly on the outside of the pack, where this situation is less likely to occur??

 

[woolly]

Thanks Rema..... that is possibly one of the nicest things I have heard today. I use this site as a potential 'moot' as hope one day to be one of the legal profession. I accept humbly any correction on very limited knowledge, but for now am little more than a housewife...
Maisy makes a good point about 'Common practice' and again there are so many points that could be used to both attack and defend in a legal battle. One might argue that if the common practice of kickers behind was well known and advertised then there might be a point but in the above case if the kicker was behind and a random straggler used the horse as a buffer to stop, the court might find that the kicker did little wrong. This would come under the 'natural or instinctive' intervention principle of causation, horse slammed into from behind, natural instinct to kick out. No liability.

 

[Maisy]

Surely, by the act of going hunting, we understand the risks involved and have to act accordingly.

I would rather a 'kicker' had a red ribbon in, and if that rider chooses to ride in amongst the pack, I can see the ribbon and avoid accordingly. If, however, I get too close, and I/my horse gets kicked, I have to take that on the chin.....surely there would be no case to answer in a court??

My horse doesnt kick, and is a pretty good buffer really, however, even she got irritated last week when an obnoxious horse insisted on kissing *MY* arse every time we came to a stand still. If she had kicked him, that would have been *his* owners fault, (surely) as she was allowing him to ram her bum every 5 mins?? (After 4 or 5 times I removed myself to behind!)

I hate this 'sue' culture we have!

 

[rema]

I hate this 'sue' culture we have

Couldent agree more.But there is always somebody out there who will try and make a quick buck from any situation.My horse is not a kicker and being a 17hh ID i think people aim for him to stop themselves.This is all hyperthetical speak as i was just wondering to myself where someone would stand should this happen on the field or any where for that matter.

 

[rema]

Well all the best to you to becoming a legal eagle.Again you have made some very valid points.Common practice is another good point.If you are out hunting i guess you will have to expect to get bashed about abit,fall off and get bloody filthy in the process. :grin:

 

[woolly]

Maisy...In the eyes of the law that isn't always enough. Knowing the risks will not preclude a duty of care. You know the risks of driving as do other road users but still that will not exempt you form owing a duty of care to fello road users. I 100% agree with you that visibly knowing a 'kicker' to be present will be preferable to having no warning whatsoever. In the situation you have given, although logical will not always be the case. Take the example of somebody trying to save a heart attack victim in the street, in desperation cracks a rib, the survivor then sues. It has happened. Nobody likes it and least of all the law but making the law is not the individuals job (though individually through case law this can eventually happen) It defies logic but the the law is the law and at the end of the day is adversarial and the best argument based on the material facts will win. I appreciate and understand your frustration. The positive is that this 'sue' culture is more percieved than actual, not help by the conditional fee ads we have rammed down out throat every 2 seconds (no win no fee) In reality it's harder to sue than people think, more costly and often never worth it. The actual circumstance happened to a friend of mine as she was out hacking her youngster no red ribbon and repeatedly told a rider behind to keep their distance. The rider behind didn't, my friend's horse lashed out and actually broke the riders leg who tried to sue. The case was dropped thankfully. Where personal injury is concerned as opposed to 'damage to property' the law is more stringent.
Many thanks Rema....I will need all the help I can get and best wishes as am not the most academically gifted lol!

 

[Darkly_Dreaming_Dex]

Can i put a totally different point of view? I was approaching a jump and there was a bunch of people who couldnt get over waiting to the side about 10-20m away. Just as we were about to take off, a horse(wearing a red ribbon) slammed into the side of us and double barrelled us HARD twice. It had taken off backwards with its rider to do it. Not even a "sorry"- they just rode off.
I cannot work for minimum 2 weeks, am not supposed to be driving, cant walk far, really struggling to do my horses, missed 3 competitions etc VERY lucky not to have a broken leg. My horse was also VERY lucky to get away with soft tissue damage to his ribs. How does this apply to your argument? I was nowhere near the horse so the "buffer" argument is invalid (if i had gone up its bum then i would only have myself to blame...)

 

[ASM2]

This would come under the 'natural or instinctive' intervention principle of causation, horse slammed into from behind, natural instinct to kick out. No liability. [/quote]

Just bear in mind Woolly that in practice judges are seldom horsey and, particularly district judges, frequently sympathise with injured parties (especially if pretty! )
These scenarios really can go either way depending on the judge's views and mood, witness credibility at trial etc etc - there are SO many variables and I have seen so many entirely different outcomes to similar facts - case law seldom features as much as it should! Really a finding of negligence in these circumstances IS ALWAYS possible.

Anyway - the v best of luck with your legal studies. I finished in litigation last year - now managing a few equine vets in Lincs!!:grin: :grin:

 

[combat_claire]

After two kicking incidents in the last two seasons our mastership sent round a letter reminding all the mounted field that they are responsible for the behaviour of their horses. If they bring a known kicker, they must tie the red ribbon in the tail, but it was emphasised that it is their responsibility to keep at the back away from other horses and people.

It is always a good idea for everyone who intends to hunt their horse to join the Countryside Alliance as their public liability insurance is the best on offer for hunting activity.

A subscriber whose horse kicked a farmer hosting a meet and broke his leg, was sued for loss of earnings. She wasn't insured and had to find the money for damages herself.