What bit for bolting?

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I have a pony that is still quite green but has schooled and hacked quite a lot now. He’s usually an angel but every so often he just takes it upon himself without warning the rider that it’s time to go from 0-100mph. He is a native breed with a strong neck, he locks his neck in, puts his head down and grabs the bit and he just gets faster and all twisty/ turny until you fall off. I’ve had 3 different experienced riders on him all trying different approaches and they’ve all come off.
he is usually very good, but out of nowhere he just tanks it. There are no triggers. Nothing to spook at, he does it both in the school and out hacking, will do it when there are other horses with him or own his own, doesn’t matter.

he’s currently in a snaffle, but I’ve been told to change it. The lady recommended a Running Gag or Vulcanite Pelham. im uneducated when it comes to bits but I’m worried that they’ll be too strong and he’ll panic and fight it.
what would you suggest? If it’s not sorted then he will keep doing it and will become a danger to himself and everyone around him without realising.

teeth, back, tack etc have all been checked. He is not in pain, it is just a habit. Please no hate, end of the day I’m just trying to do good by him and would never wish him any pain or discomfort, but being safe and having control is a priority.
 
Did you ever change the saddle?
Almost all newly backed horses run through the bit it's part of what makes backing them a job for experienced hands or a set of experienced eyes, it's often not true bolting.
There will be a trigger but you have not worked out what it is yet.
Maybe he has scared himself by spooking, someone becoming unbalanced and falling off, so now when he gets worried thw fear of those events kicks in.
One of the most important things to teach a horse before a rider gets on is not to panic when things fall of them or become unbalanced.
Ultimately a newly backed horse that is getting people of is not ready to have people on.
Bitting up will not solve your problems.
Back to basics may and will certainly improve things at the least.
 
twiggy2 said:
Did you ever change the saddle?
Almost all newly backed horses run through the bit it's part of what makes backing them a job for experienced hands or a set of experienced eyes, it's often not true bolting.
There will be a trigger but you have not worked out what it is yet.
Maybe he has scared himself by spooking, someone becoming unbalanced and falling off, so now when he gets worried thw fear of those events kicks in.
One of the most important things to teach a horse before a rider gets on is not to panic when things fall of them or become unbalanced.
Ultimately a newly backed horse that is getting people of is not ready to have people on.
Bitting up will not solve your problems.
Back to basics may and will certainly improve things at the least.
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Ahhh that could be a good point. As of last week we aren’t using a saddle as when he has bolted then my saddle has totally slipped around (because it’s rubbish and with him changing shape and building muscle) so we were trying it bareback to see if it made a difference, and I think it did improve, then we were just walking along quite the thing and he took off! It’s so frustrating because I want to trust him but every time this happens I lose my confidence in him a little bit more and more. I won’t give up on him though.

what groundwork would you suggest to get him used to unbalanced things?
 
If I have understood your post correctly, could it be that the saddle is actually uncomfortable because it doesn't fit properly? If the rider's movement exacerbates the discomfort, that could set him off running. I would make sure that the saddle fits correctly but, of course now is not a good time to get a saddle fitter out.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
If I have understood your post correctly, could it be that the saddle is actually uncomfortable because it doesn't fit properly? If the rider's movement exacerbates the discomfort, that could set him off running. I would make sure that the saddle fits correctly but, of course now is not a good time to get a saddle fitter out.
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Like I said, it happens and if I ride bareback or with a saddle...
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Sorry, I thought you said he was better bareback.
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Generally, he has been better bareback. He is settling in a trot more and I’m noticing positive differences. I am in the middle of getting a new saddle sorted but with COVID-19 I am not receiving a full wage To purchase a saddle and cannot get a saddle fitter out either! It’s frustrating lol.

however, he is still bolting, and once he goes, it’s impossible to hold him back.
 
Laurenm1401 said:
Generally, he has been better bareback. He is settling in a trot more and I’m noticing positive differences. I am in the middle of getting a new saddle sorted but with COVID-19 I am not receiving a full wage To purchase a saddle and cannot get a saddle fitter out either! It’s frustrating lol.

however, he is still bolting, and once he goes, it’s impossible to hold him back.
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I see, I think I would want his back checked as well, in case the ill-fitting saddle has caused a problem. You won't be able to get any-one to do that either, so I would turn him away and hope/trust that time helps him to heal.
 
If he was truly bolting he wouldn’t stop, no fence or obstacle will stop them or turn them either. Sorry pet hate of mine. Have been truly bolted with and had to throw myself off I hate a horse tanking off being described as A bolt, a true bolter needs a bullet. I doubt yours is one. He is running from something be it in pain or fear. Your problem won’t be the bit it will be whatever he is reacting to.

my suggestion would be ground work with a surcingle and pad to get him working and relaxing then look to start getting on with the surcingle and pad and have him inhand with a rider on. Basically rebacking and hopefully you will be able to get a saddle fitter out to get him something that fits him.
 
No bit will fix a true blind bolter. A true bolter would not stop if a brick wall was put in front of it. If he is simply running away to evade things or from discomfort then as others have mentioned, more saddle checks and retraining will help. However the only thing that fixed my true bolter was a bullet, a suspected brain tumour, so be careful branding a horse with that.
 
Spotherisk said:
Is it after a similar time under saddle ie good for 20 minutes or an hour etc then goes? Do you ever give him anything to eat prior to riding, if not then try it, a small meal of damped chaff is enough. I am thinking ulcers.
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How did you get ulcers? He does not get hard feed as he is a little overweight and a native and does well on his hay when in his stable and then he’s out eating grass during the day.
the last time he bolted (two days ago) he had went out In field at 7am until 3pm, I brought him in and we were out about 45 minutes on our hack. It wasn’t exactly a very strenuous hack. Mostly walking with one big hill and two short trots. He bolted right at the last stretch of grass on our way home when we were just walking.

the Previous time he bolted, he had been in his stable and had some hay before. We were out less than 5 minutes and he shot off. We were also just walking. I hadn’t changed the way I was riding when he bolted to when I first got on, so I don’t understand why he’s doing it and that’s why I’m thinking he’s just taking the piss now; because he knows it’ll get his rider off!
 
Cheeky Chestnut said:
If he was truly bolting he wouldn’t stop, no fence or obstacle will stop them or turn them either. Sorry pet hate of mine. Have been truly bolted with and had to throw myself off I hate a horse tanking off being described as A bolt, a true bolter needs a bullet. I doubt yours is one. He is running from something be it in pain or fear. Your problem won’t be the bit it will be whatever he is reacting to.

my suggestion would be ground work with a surcingle and pad to get him working and relaxing then look to start getting on with the surcingle and pad and have him inhand with a rider on. Basically rebacking and hopefully you will be able to get a saddle fitter out to get him something that fits him.
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When his rider falls off he always leaves it. Thankfully the first couple of times we were in the school so he could only run to the gate, but it happened a few weeks ago where he ran all the way home, and two days ago he’d have taken off too but the rider managed to fall off and keep hold of his reins.
 
Laurenm1401 said:
When his rider falls off he always leaves it. Thankfully the first couple of times we were in the school so he could only run to the gate, but it happened a few weeks ago where he ran all the way home, and two days ago he’d have taken off too but the rider managed to fall off and keep hold of his reins.
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Then he’s not a bolter so don’t describe him as such. That is a label that doesn’t shift. He’s running off through pain, fear or learned habit. Restart him. Now would be a good time start from the beginning, leading, long longing and building up to a rider back on board.
 
Cheeky Chestnut said:
Then he’s not a bolter so don’t describe him as such. That is a label that doesn’t shift. He’s running off through pain, fear or learned habit. Restart him. Now would be a good time start from the beginning, leading, long longing and building up to a rider back on board.
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We already do lots of long reining, lunging and walking in hand. The past few weeks I haven’t been riding as I don’t want to because of COVID-19 so I have been doing lots of groundwork 6/7 days of the week and he’s a total pro at it all now. We’ve been doing it since August!
 
can i just ask you dont call running off bolting . he is not bolting, as others have said, bolting horses will run through fences and often injure themselves, they usually have some sort of physical problem and the solution is likely to be a bullet.... yours sounds like he has frightened himself and has also frightened you which wont help. once this crisis is over i would gt a decent saddle fitted properly and contact a professional to ride him to start with, if that goes ok it will give you much more confidence and you will give him confidence as well. good luck
 
Echo the advice to check saddle/comfort.
I would also be very cautious about the advice you received to try a Pelham OR a gag, curbs lower the head and gags raise it, these are completely different actions! Someone suggesting both these bits is probably not really thinking beyond a "strong" bit, which will never solve your problems in the long run. Curbs and gags have their place, but they work by correcting head carriage and bringing the head and neck back into a controllable position. If you start changing bits based on their "strength" you are just saving up trouble for yourself down the line and risk making the horse associate the bit with discomfort.
Apologies for the rant, but it's a pet peeve of mine seeing bits suggested because they are just strong, not because they actually fit the problem.
 
Laurenm1401 said:
We already do lots of long reining, lunging and walking in hand. The past few weeks I haven’t been riding as I don’t want to because of COVID-19 so I have been doing lots of groundwork 6/7 days of the week and he’s a total pro at it all now. We’ve been doing it since August!
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When you start back with him you can build up from there. Do a groundwork session and then at the end mount and dismount a few times, lots if praise and finish. After you've done that a couple of days then mount, walk a few steps, halt, get off, lits of praise and finish. And gradually build this up over a number of weeks.
There will have been a trigger that started the behaviour and was powerful enough to keep him doing it (I agree with others, saddle is very likely from what you've said here), and it is likely that the running off is now an ingrained habit. So it will take time to unlearn it and the best way to do that is to completely redo his backing process to try to replace the negative experience he has had at some point previously.
 
the advantage of a running gag (which is one that will raise the head) is that you can ride with a snaffle rein too and have the running rein there for emergencies.

From the rest of your post though (is he welsh?) I think there is more going on that needs looking into given that he hasn't really been broken that long.
 
SpeedyPony said:
Echo the advice to check saddle/comfort.
I would also be very cautious about the advice you received to try a Pelham OR a gag, curbs lower the head and gags raise it, these are completely different actions! Someone suggesting both these bits is probably not really thinking beyond a "strong" bit, which will never solve your problems in the long run. Curbs and gags have their place, but they work by correcting head carriage and bringing the head and neck back into a controllable position. If you start changing bits based on their "strength" you are just saving up trouble for yourself down the line and risk making the horse associate the bit with discomfort.
Apologies for the rant, but it's a pet peeve of mine seeing bits suggested because they are just strong, not because they actually fit the problem.
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Thank you for explaining. From what I’m told, it sounds like what he needs is a bit that offers the rider more control and to bring his head back in and on the bit. I’m scared that a bit too strong will make him panic and try to fight it, so thank you for your opinion. :)
 
DabDab said:
When you start back with him you can build up from there. Do a groundwork session and then at the end mount and dismount a few times, lots if praise and finish. After you've done that a couple of days then mount, walk a few steps, halt, get off, lits of praise and finish. And gradually build this up over a number of weeks.
There will have been a trigger that started the behaviour and was powerful enough to keep him doing it (I agree with others, saddle is very likely from what you've said here), and it is likely that the running off is now an ingrained habit. So it will take time to unlearn it and the best way to do that is to completely redo his backing process to try to replace the negative experience he has had at some point previously.
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Thank you so much this makes total sense and for you to have offered some sort of plan in doing his ground work sounds like a good idea and I am going to do it tomorrow. Slow and steady wins the race as they say and I’m in no rush whatsoever, I just want a trustee best friend who won’t run away with me lol!
 
ester said:
the advantage of a running gag (which is one that will raise the head) is that you can ride with a snaffle rein too and have the running rein there for emergencies.

From the rest of your post though (is he welsh?) I think there is more going on that needs looking into given that he hasn't really been broken that long.
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He is New Forest X Welsh, but more welsh I think yes! He can be very opinionated lol but I can tell he means no harm, he really is the sweetest pony I’ve ever met on the ground.
 
Blazingsaddles said:
He’s not a spooky type by the sounds of it. To suddenly shoot off without visible cause sounds like a pain issue.
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But I don’t understand how he can be so great 9/10 rides then shoot off that odd time! If the rider gets back on and is firmer and constantly on the ball then he won’t try it, but it’s when you relax he will do it and that’s what makes me think he’s taking the piss.
 
welsh are worriers, I suspect at that point in time, for whatever reason something is worrying or hurting him. Trigger finding will definitely help, they aren't always obvious.
A couple of times mine went a bit dolally at and indoor SJ we went to lots of the time, he'd go from dozing at the sidelines to I need to get out of here NOW (generally very chilled about life for a welsh) realised for him it was when particular songs were played- he does not do base :rolleyes:.

Do you have a good stop word too?

ETA your latest post makes me wonder if he is just a bit insecure, prefers the handholding of stronger riding and isn't quite ready to take responsibilty for himself yet .
 
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