What colour pattern is she? Tobiano or something else at play?

[Kacey88]

Is my horse Tobiano Bay or is there some other pattern involved? The reason I ask is because she her blaze is very, very wide on one side. Here are pictures:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/album.php?albumid=2542&pictureid=13840

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/album.php?albumid=2542&pictureid=13840

I will breed from her in the future and am very interested in colour genetics. Will she pass on this unusual facial marking? Getting her tested to see of she's homozygous for Tobiano, if she is indeed Tobiano!

Any ideas anyone?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Tobiano.

 

[Erin]

Tobiano

 

[mulledwhine]

I am now going to show my general ignorance, what makes her a tobiano, it is a phrase that I have only just started to here on this forum!!

I had always thought that is was just piebald and skewbald, so I am very interested to learn more

 

[Havenbeech]

Definately Tobiano (term used collectively for black and white, bay and white, palomino and white etc etc etc) but possibly splash too. Splash is usually responsible for the muzzle being totally encompassed in white like that, especially where there is a block of colour on the lip etc which usually means sabino is fighting back! LOL
Splash is very common in gypsy horses and your girl is quite possibly a carrier of all 3 genes if she is traditional cob x

 

[Eluana]

Tobiano is one of many genes that causes the white markings in horses.
Generally, the pattern is generally described as if someone has spilt white paint from the top of the horse.
It will not cause white on the face, or tail.
If a horse has no face white but is tobiano, then it is possible that they have no other whitening gene, though tobiano could of 'won' the fight over no face white, and they still have one of the others.
It can turn the horse completely white (minus head/tail) or be as minimal as tall socks, though in this case, there will probably be lots of ermine spots. Of course, the pattern could be anywhere in between as well


Though the OP horse also has something else at play, as she has face white. I suspect splash, due to the bottom heavy, 'sliding off' one side of her face her face white has.
Though she could have sabino as well.

ETA: whoops, cross-posted!

 

[team barney]

Most "coloured" horses in the UK are tobiano.

The other main colour pattern is overo. Overo horses have no white crossing their spine and their genetics are far more common in the USA than here in the UK, it is very rare to come across a overo in England.

Good explanation...

http://www.apha.com/breed/geneticeq2.html

 

[Shooting Star]

I am now going to show my general ignorance, what makes her a tobiano, it is a phrase that I have only just started to here on this forum!!

I had always thought that is was just piebald and skewbald, so I am very interested to learn more

Tobiano is the pattern rather than the colour so both piebalds & skewbalds can be tobiano, I'm not very good at identifying them myself so I'm sure the coloured enthusiasts can explain much better but wiki has a bit of a summary of the patterns - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinto_horse#Patterns

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I am now going to show my general ignorance, what makes her a tobiano, it is a phrase that I have only just started to here on this forum!!

I had always thought that is was just piebald and skewbald, so I am very interested to learn more

http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/ecg_basics3.html#pinto

 

[mulledwhine]

Thanks all, and sorry OP to hyjack

Still getting my head around it, but will look at all links provided

 

[hezza1]

Thought i had a Skewbald, but seems i might have a tobiano !!

 

[Paint Me Proud]

Thought i had a Skewbald, but seems i might have a tobiano !!

tobiano is a pattern found in Skewbald horses - so you still have a skewbald, just a tobiano patterns skewbald.

My horse Chico (see photos in sig) is a Skewbald - but he is also a Tovero as he has Tobiano and Overo patterning (which gets called To-vero). In American he may be called paint too. It's all semantics!

 

[Kacey88]

Definately Tobiano (term used collectively for black and white, bay and white, palomino and white etc etc etc) but possibly splash too. Splash is usually responsible for the muzzle being totally encompassed in white like that, especially where there is a block of colour on the lip etc which usually means sabino is fighting back! LOL
Splash is very common in gypsy horses and your girl is quite possibly a carrier of all 3 genes if she is traditional cob x

That is a LOT of colour to remember! I knew she wasn't just tobiano! I know tobiano is dominant, does anybody know how "splash" markings or sabino are passes down to offspring?

If I crossed her to a tobiano stallion, is there any way of knowing which markings would win out? Can I test her for splash and sabino genes as well as checking if she's homozygous for Tobiano?

 

[Eluana]

You can test her for tobiano, and to see if she is Sabino1, though if she comes back negative it doesn't mean she doesn't have another form of sabino.
If she's SB1, then she either pass on SB1 or tobiano (in which case, she's not homozygous tobiano, as they are on the same gene).
There isn't a test for splash.

Splash is on it's own gene, so 50% chance if heterozygous, 100% if homozygous.
The other sabino genes we don't know where they are located, so they follow either how SB1 or splash is passed on examples.

Tobiano is attached to the Extension gene (determines if the horse is red or black based).
So if she's heterozygous tobiano, with that linked to her first E allele, if she passes that on, the foal will be tobiano. If she passes her second E allele, then there is a 7% chance of tobiano 'switching-over' and also being passed on, otherwise it will be solid.

Sorry if this is too much, I tend to add too much detail while not clearly explaining what I mean.

Do you know what colour her parents are?

 

[Enfys]

In American he may be called paint too. It's all semantics!

Semantics, quite.

Many people call any horse (regardless of size, breed or patterning) a 'paint' purely as a generic term to describe what in Europe is collectively covered by the term 'coloured' as opposed to a Paint which is an actual breed registry.

They may then specify bay/red/black paint blah, blah, blah if a more accurate description is needed. Piebald and Skewbald will generally just be met with a "" where I come from

 

[Kacey88]

You can test her for tobiano, and to see if she is Sabino1, though if she comes back negative it doesn't mean she doesn't have another form of sabino.
If she's SB1, then she either pass on SB1 or tobiano (in which case, she's not homozygous tobiano, as they are on the same gene).
There isn't a test for splash.

Splash is on it's own gene, so 50% chance if heterozygous, 100% if homozygous.
The other sabino genes we don't know where they are located, so they follow either how SB1 or splash is passed on examples.

Tobiano is attached to the Extension gene (determines if the horse is red or black based).
So if she's heterozygous tobiano, with that linked to her first E allele, if she passes that on, the foal will be tobiano. If she passes her second E allele, then there is a 7% chance of tobiano 'switching-over' and also being passed on, otherwise it will be solid.

Sorry if this is too much, I tend to add too much detail while not clearly explaining what I mean.

Do you know what colour her parents are?

Unfortunately I do not! I was told by her last owner she is "half bred". I think in Ireland that usually means her sire had recorded breeding, but her mum is a cob of some sort. Apart from her colour, she doesn't look like a gypsy cob! She's not that chunky and has loose jumped 130cm. I think that's good for 15hh!

Since you're obviously expert at this, and you'll know from my questions that I am certainly not (!), if I crossed her with a tobiano stallion with markings that I really loved is the foal more likely to have those markings? The other alternative is to cross her with a solid colour stallion in the hope of the foal having less colour, does any of this make sense?! Breeding coloured horses is so exciting

 

[Kacey88]

Definately Tobiano (term used collectively for black and white, bay and white, palomino and white etc etc etc) but possibly splash too. Splash is usually responsible for the muzzle being totally encompassed in white like that, especially where there is a block of colour on the lip etc which usually means sabino is fighting back! LOL
Splash is very common in gypsy horses and your girl is quite possibly a carrier of all 3 genes if she is traditional cob x

Thanks for the info. What makes you think she has sabino too? Is that her "lipstick" as I call it? LOL

 

[Eluana]

Since you're obviously expert at this, and you'll know from my questions that I am certainly not (!), if I crossed her with a tobiano stallion with markings that I really loved is the foal more likely to have those markings? The other alternative is to cross her with a solid colour stallion in the hope of the foal having less colour, does any of this make sense?! Breeding coloured horses is so exciting

Unfortunately not - there's no way of knowing what markings the foal will have before it's born. You'll have somewhat idea of what pattern genetics it could have, but no idea of what the pattern will be expressed like.
There are some things we know cause pattern expression and suppression, but even with that, it doesn't let you really know what the foal is going to look like.
Sucks really, but that is part of the fun of breeding horses

As for sabino - see the jagged edges some of her markings have? Both tobiano and splash create smooth edges, while sabino likes jagged ones.

 

[Kacey88]

Unfortunately not - there's no way of knowing what markings the foal will have before it's born. You'll have somewhat idea of what pattern genetics it could have, but no idea of what the pattern will be expressed like.
There are some things we know cause pattern expression and suppression, but even with that, it doesn't let you really know what the foal is going to look like.
Sucks really, but that is part of the fun of breeding horses

As for sabino - see the jagged edges some of her markings have? Both tobiano and splash create smooth edges, while sabino likes jagged ones.

Thank you so much for your help, I'm breeding from her regardless of colour, now I'll be even more excited, so many possibilities! When I get her colour genes tested I'll post them here.