What colour will she be?

[DabDab]

So, I've never owned a colour changing horse before that wasn't just a straight forward grey. This is my micro mare (if I've managed to make the pictures work anyway), who breeding wise is Knabstrupper x TB, and a couple of months ago was very dark bay with just a few flecks of white through her coat and one white sock. Dad is a few spot (from birth), and mum is bay.
She now has white in her tail, some blobs of white in her body, some areas that look like they are greying, cream coloured nether regions, and dark (almost black) spots showing through. She's also complete with splodgy muzzle, gums etc., human eye and candy stripe hooves. She's rising 3

Would love to hear people's opinions on how she'll end up. Is all this change just due to the spotty gene?

 

[FfionWinnie]

I think she will continue to roan out but the dark spots will remain as they are.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Seal brown base colour.

As a few spot the sire is Lp Lp plus PATN1, so the daughter has to inherit one copy Lp (hence the Lp characteristics eg striped hooves) but from the look of her, she hasn't inherited PATN1, so she is a varnish roan. She will 'varnish' out over time.

ETA helpful chart (from colorgenetics.info)

NC = no characteristics/solid
CO = characteristics only/varnish

 

[SEL]

I'm not an appaloosa expert, but my understanding is that few spots carry 2 copies of the LP gene (& I only know this because it means they are nightblind and I have one of those horses!)

So the sire will have passed on one copy of the LP gene - which I thought meant you always ended up with spots, but I have a feeling it affects the varnish roaning that you get in appaloosa colourings as well. Either way, your horse won't stay solid and it looks like the roaning has already started.

The colour experts need to wade in here because my science knowledge runs out at this level!! {& they've waded in as I've posted }

 

[SEL]

Seal brown base colour.

As a few spot the sire is Lp Lp plus PATN1, so the daughter has to inherit one copy Lp (hence the Lp characteristics eg striped hooves) but from the look of her, she hasn't inherited PATN1, so she is a varnish roan. She will 'varnish' out over time.

ETA helpful chart (from colorgenetics.info)

NC = no characteristics/solid
CO = characteristics only/varnish

That's really helpful. I have a snowcap who is getting whiter as the years go by. I know she is LP/LP (the night blind bit was a surprise the first winter I had her), so obviously she has PATN2 as well.

Her sire and full brother are leopard spotted, but from photos of the brother he has definitely roaned out since birth.
I've only seen photos of the dam (she died shortly after giving birth) and she looks to be a roan, but with the appaloosa characteristics on her muzzle etc. I'm guessing both parents had one copy of the LP gene on that basis.

 

[Wagtail]

Thanks for that chart, Faracat. Very interesting and helpful. I just love learning about colour genetics.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I'm glad you like the chart too.

It also shows how non spotty horses (of spotty breeds) could actually be carrying important genes (PATN1 and PATN2) so if you are breeding for colour, don't automatically discount solid horses from your breeding programme.

 

[ester]

Faracat got there first

 

[Wagtail]

I'm glad you like the chart too.

It also shows how non spotty horses (of spotty breeds) could actually be carrying important genes (PATN1 and PATN2) so if you are breeding for colour, don't automatically discount solid horses from your breeding programme.

I hadn't thought of that. Good point.

 

[DabDab]

Thanks Faracat, that chart was what I was looking for as know nothing about spotty genetics.

So why do some have this varnishing out effect when the leopard spot pattern is there from birth - genetically speaking, why are the same genes having a progressive effect on one coat but not on another?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

It's because the patterns are caused by more than one gene, so you get more possible options. The chart doesn't show everything eg genes causing spot size.

This explains it better than I could! http://draftswithdots.blogspot.co.uk/2010/09/lp-patterns.html

 

[SEL]

Roan is interesting.

My Ardennes is a bay roan who changes coat colour twice a year, but the level of white on him stays the same

The snowcap is definitely getting whiter as each year goes by - & she's also a bay roan.

 

[DabDab]

Great link faracat, thank you.

So interesting how the sabino affects the pattern...I think she must have at least one PATN1 though to give her her half hidden spots... no?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I don't think so as she doesn't have a blanket and isn't a leopard spot.

 

[ester]

Roan is interesting.

My Ardennes is a bay roan who changes coat colour twice a year, but the level of white on him stays the same

The snowcap is definitely getting whiter as each year goes by - & she's also a bay roan.

Roan (Rn) and LP (appy varnish/roan gene) are quite different in their affects though, one is progressive the other usually not.

 

[DabDab]

So just thought I would update this thread in case anyone is interested.... This is what the young lady looks like now, just over a year later:

She's still moulting a little, but I think this is pretty much her colour for this year now

 

[ester]

I love her two tone tail

 

[DabDab]

Very Granny Chic isn't it She's bang on trend that mare...

 

[DabDab]

Thread update, because it is nice to have a record (although I missed last year). For the first time this year she's light enough to see a collection of smaller black spots on her shoulder. Her black points are still black and her bronzey bits are still bronze. Also (as I thought I had already put on this thread but must've miss remembered), when tested she does have patn1 as well as Lp.

Sorry the photos are a bit pants, she was in a bit of a dreamy doolally mood this morning, but it does show her colour fairly accurately

 

[IngramsRoughDiamond]

She's really similar to a mare I know, who was dark bay at six and by 12 was just like yours, now she's got even more white at 26

 

[lannerch]

Don’t know much about colour genetics but love her

 

[DabDab]

Don’t know much about colour genetics but love her

Thank you x
I'm pretty fond of her too

 

[Meowy Catkin]

It's lovely to have an update... especially one with DNA results! Wonderful.

 

[SEL]

Looking forward to tuning in for next year's instalment - she's really lovely. Watching the appaloosa gene colour change is fascinating.

So if she has inherited PATN1 from her sire does that mean she is going to roan out to leopard spot? I'm trying to follow that chart further up the thread.

 

[DabDab]

I don't really know SEL, I guess so to a certain extent, but I'm not sure if her legs will stay dark. I can't find any internet examples of a horse progressing to leopard spot, just pictures of horses who are leopard from birth. They are certainly curious genes...

 

[SEL]

I had a bit of a google and I think this site explains that PATN1 won't produce all over leopard unless there are other modifying genes there too. My mare's dam was roaning out in the few photos I've got of her - but can't see a single spot so I guess no PATN1 gene there. Oddly fascinating. Thinking it would be fun to be an Appy breeder and never quite sure what you're going to get #lockdownboredom

https://www.appaloosaproject.co/articles/free-articles/61-patn2-is-not-the-blanket-gene.html

 

[DabDab]

That's so interesting SEL, thanks for sharing

 

[FinnishLapphund]

What a beautiful lady you have there DabDab.

It is interesting to be able to compare her fascinating colour changes, I wonder what she'll come up with for the next season.

 

[ester]

I wanted a tail pic

 

[FinnishLapphund]

I wanted a tail pic

Maybe the lady said No to that, today?