What do I know?!

palo1

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Semi-serious post - I really am beginning to wonder what I actually know (about young horses/training)...I am currently on my 5th young horse (starting from scratch) and I am super happy with her. I have ridden, trained and kept horses for a long time. Of course with young horses it is sometimes 2 steps forward and 1 back but we have travelled considerable distance since Alw arrived a few days before her 3rd birthday, knowing nothing other than how to have a headcollar on. :) She seems easily as good, as balanced, keen to learn and relaxed as the others, if not more so in some ways. Yet I have been in discussion with a new trainer/instructor and it leaves me feeling rather daft tbh. We had an initial 'lesson' 3 weeks ago where said instrutor felt Alw was quite pottery/shuffly. It was the first time on an arena surface and I do think Alw was probably footsore or something as well as very uncertain about the situation. We called the lesson short. Farrier has been, horse trotted up on hard and softer going, turned, lunged etc etc and she is sound and happy. She is a bit of a lump (rather fat Welsh D!) and is certainly unbalanced, bum high and probably not the best mover. I knew that her movement, though perfectly straight, was not fabulous when I bought her; she is workmanlike rather than flashy or extravagant but has a fantastic walk. She is certainly good enough for me; I hope she will become a lovely hack and hunter with jumping and dressage for fun days out rather than any serious competitive ambitions. :) I have competed previously and that has all been fine and not hugely stressful :)

I have arranged a second lesson having had a very straightforward conversation with the trainer who says she is happy enough to continue even if 'the mare looks terrible'...She has also said that I might be able to think about dressage at a low, unaffiliated level in the future. Now I don't really mind one bit about dressage though I did have it on the agenda if I am honest BUT I feel rather sad and confused as to why at such a young age the horse I am just starting with seems to have been somewhat dismissed. I know my little horse is no Valegro (!!) but surely she is far too young to dismiss as not having dreams for? I am pretty uncommitted to dressage dreams but I have competed with BD previously and wouldn't naturally consider not re-joining so that I could have the benefit of good venues and the feedback etc even for just a few prelim tests. I think my mare should manage something at that level tbh! I haven't competed unaffiliated in anything for years but perhaps I am really out of date now.

At the moment my use of the trainer is tactical - she visits very nearby where I can use my neighbour's arena and I am pretty convinced that as soon as we have had 1 more go in that arena it will be time to move on to a different trainer. Yet I like the woman, she knows what she is doing and is clearly sympathetic to the horse, knowledgeable and careful. She is not a conventional BHS trainer nor does she compete herself but that doesn't bother me one bit. Is it just me being ridiculously protective of my young horse/feeling offended or do I know nothing? Really genuinely a bit confused and feeling a bit low about this - now I keep looking at my lovely girl trying to see what it is that is so unpromising about her!! All I see is a lump of a very young horse that should be able to do anything at the level I am considering given time and the right work :) I think she is lovely and objectively speaking she is well made and moves straight and level. Has anyone else experienced this mis-match of views of a horse? Sorry for rambling on...
 

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I can't work out from your post how old your horse is now but surely she is still growing? Not only do you get total transformations when they grow up but also when they start regular work and develop their muscles. It seems far too early to be drawing conclusions about her at all. I seem to remember Carl Hester had some rather unflattering thing to say about Valegro in his youth - the rest was history!! Your girl may never be another Valegro but so long as her training is taken slowly and sensibly then you can get her to be the best she can be. Trust yourself - listen to advice from anyone and everywhere but in the end go with your gut instinct about her.
 

LEC

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If you like the trainer, then I tend to continue if actually they are interested in helping and you get a lot out of it. I once went to my SJing trainer who told me she wouldn't give me 50p for my horse when he promptly fell over another jump out of trot having only just started jumping. It was said jokingly while we then knuckled down to make it better. 18 months later that horse was jumping round 1.20m course under her eye. I knew he was weak, had a tonne of working out brain to legs and he wasnt really her type so just wasnt too bothered by it as he was going eventing not going to be a pure SJer.

2 years down the line, the same horse but a different trainer renowned for not being very nice told me the horse was dangerous jumping. I knew what he was getting at, the horse occassionally jumped over his shoulder but was getting better the more his ability to shorten and compress himself developed (he was 17.2hh and gangly). I was pretty upset about it as he offered no solutions, wouldnt let me jump while the rest of the group were pushed (friends I had been competing with and we were doing fine) and banged on and on about it. It made me lose confidence.

I write this as an example of two trainers who didnt rate this horse but treated it very differently. This horse wasn't going to be a world beater, but he was mine, he was free when I had no money and I loved him faults and all. He was one who got better and better the older and stronger he got, it just took time. One trainer helped and the other impacted me detrimentally for years.

I have one now - she is very talented but not the bravest sometimes and one of my trainers (who is world class) just doesnt work for her. Her system doesn't work for this horse and she doesn't really like the way the horse goes. The other trainer gets this horse more. Both trainers probably don't like this horse much but I don't worry about that bit! I just care if they are invested in helping and improving us.
 
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palo1

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I can't work out from your post how old your horse is now but surely she is still growing? Not only do you get total transformations when they grow up but also when they start regular work and develop their muscles. It seems far too early to be drawing conclusions about her at all. I seem to remember Carl Hester had some rather unflattering thing to say about Valegro in his youth - the rest was history!! Your girl may never be another Valegro but so long as her training is taken slowly and sensibly then you can get her to be the best she can be. Trust yourself - listen to advice from anyone and everywhere but in the end go with your gut instinct about her.

Thank you for your reply :) My mare is 4 (birthday at the end of April!). She looks strong and well grown and her 4 y/o teeth have been up for a while but actually she is wobbly and unbalanced bless her!! :) I have no intention of doing much with her yet - I had wondered about a prelim test in the Autumn just for the experience of going somewhere and trying to concentrate but it is not at all essential at this point and we can do that next Spring if it would be better. No hurry and she is not doing much more than hacking out at the moment with 20 minutes of problem solving/pole work etc mostly in walk in the field at home around once a week. :)
 

palo1

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If you like the trainer, then I tend to continue if actually they are interested in helping and you get a lot out of it. I once went to my SJing trainer who told me she wouldn't give me 50p for my horse when he promptly fell over another jump out of trot having only just started jumping. It was said jokingly while we then knuckled down to make it better. 18 months later that horse was jumping round 1.20m course under her eye. I knew he was weak, had a tonne of working out brain to legs and he wasnt really her type so just wasnt too bothered by it as he was going eventing not going to be a pure SJer.

2 years down the line, the same horse but a different trainer renowned for not being very nice told me the horse was dangerous jumping. I knew what he was getting at, the horse occassionally jumped over his shoulder but was getting better the more his ability to shorten and compress himself developed (he was 17.2hh and gangly). I was pretty upset about it as he offered no solutions, wouldnt let me jump while the rest of the group were pushed (friends I had been competing with and we were doing fine) and banged on and on about it. It made me lose confidence.

I write this as an example of two trainers who didnt rate this horse but treated it very differently. This horse wasn't going to be a world beater, but he was mine, he was free when I had no money and I loved him faults and all. He was one who got better and better the older and stronger he got, it just took time. One trainer helped and the other impacted me detrimentally for years.

I have one now - she is very talented but not the bravest sometimes and one of my trainers (who is world class) just doesnt work for her. Her system doesn't work for this horse and she doesn't really like the way the horse goes. The other trainer gets this horse more. Both trainers probably don't like this horse much but I don't worry about that bit! I just care if they are invested in helping and improving us.

Yes! I can't quite work out yet whether this trainer could be the first or second kind...
 

LEC

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Yes! I can't quite work out yet whether this trainer could be the first or second kind...

BTW its my experience that they all look shite when starting off. Going in an arena is incredibly hard work for them. If the comments are making you doubt yourself then you need to go elsewhere. If you can just shrug them off for the other benefits then keep with it. Personally I would just have a blunt conversation with the trainer. It might be that you just need to have an honest converation to align yourselves.
 

Michen

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I think they just can change so quickly. Bear went back in school under saddle for first time yesterday since March. He was pottery shuffle stuffy and just pretty rubbish.

This morning he went in, working in a frame of sorts for short periods. Forward thinking. Obviously these are just stills and a moment in time but they accurately reflect a pretty big difference in about 14 hours!!!
65220011-F843-44D5-B802-627B7D66FE3E.jpegA5C83DEA-BA25-455A-81D9-A377A99C2518.jpeg


So many ups and downs with babies and I’d definitely want a positive instructor that helped with it. Not sure how old she is but maybe too soon for a lesson? Bear is a long way off having a lesson really unless he has 20 mins tagged onto the end of someone else’s.
 

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I'd be inclined to say this is not the instructor for you but if it's simply a case of using her to gain access to the arena for a bit of experience for your horse then just ignore the negative comments and keep working your girl at a pace that's right for you. I got my Welsh x at 3 years old but she was way too immature to start so left her till she was 4, for the next 12 months she moved like a cart horse, now she is totally different, never going to be a world beater, but a good solid riding club horse that can nicely turn her good to anything and has 3 fab paces.
 

palo1

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BTW its my experience that they all look shite when starting off. Going in an arena is incredibly hard work for them. If the comments are making you doubt yourself then you need to go elsewhere. If you can just shrug them off for the other benefits then keep with it. Personally I would just have a blunt conversation with the trainer. It might be that you just need to have an honest converation to align yourselves.

Yes!! This is exactly how I feel and when I spoke to the trainer on Monday for the straight talk I thought we were on the same page until she revealed just how limited she seems to think we might be...lol. I have never had a young horse that didn't look pretty awful at times and you just have to keep going gently till things look better in my experience. 4 is far too young to decide what the future might hold for a horse - especially one aimed very much at not very competitive fun!
 

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I think if it's going to make you worry about this and feel down, I don't think this trainer is for you. Not blaming anyone, but sometimes the personalities just aren't the right fit. I have spent too much time and energy investing in the wrong people since I started riding and I will not do it again.

My current trainer has told me last week that she thought I had bats in my belfry to have bought my horse when she saw me at my first lesson in September as I was going "She's got fantastic potential" (I'd had three big powerful warmbloods before, and bought a wormy, sore-backed ex-RS cob who did nothing but shuffle lacklustre round the school at first, so I'll admit it was a bit of a surprise). But she kept it to herself and threw everything into helping us. She's only telling me now as there's been such a dramatic change :) She wouldn't have said it to me then as she knows my confidence is fragile at the best of time. And I get to say - I told you so!
 

palo1

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I think they just can change so quickly. Bear went back in school under saddle for first time yesterday since March. He was pottery shuffle stuffy and just pretty rubbish.

This morning he went in, working in a frame of sorts for short periods. Forward thinking. Obviously these are just stills and a moment in time but they accurately reflect a pretty big difference in about 14 hours!!!
View attachment 50521View attachment 50522


So many ups and downs with babies and I’d definitely want a positive instructor that helped with it. Not sure how old she is but maybe too soon for a lesson? Bear is a long way off having a lesson really unless he has 20 mins tagged onto the end of someone else’s.

This is exactly my experience with young horses over several years. One day you think they are fabulous, the next you think you need to call the knacker!! I am more used to a very pragmatic approach but with a keen eye for real problems/soundness issues so I was a bit surprised that what seems like normal young horse meh! is seen as a more intrinsic lack of promise. :( Alw is 4 btw. We are not really having a 'lesson' as such - my good friend has a lesson and I am (or was supposed to be) making use of some eyes on the ground whilst I let Alw get used to a surface for 20 minutes at the end of my friend's session :) Having written this, I think I will just ditch the idea tbh - there is no real pressure or reason for us to use an arena at all as Alw is fine working in the field and out and about as far as she needs to and I have an excellent and very positive instructor (who could probably help anyone to get anything going nicely) lined up for when we are ready. It's just really disappointing and I quite like the instructor - I just don't think she will be right for us.
 
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palo1

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I'd be inclined to say this is not the instructor for you but if it's simply a case of using her to gain access to the arena for a bit of experience for your horse then just ignore the negative comments and keep working your girl at a pace that's right for you. I got my Welsh x at 3 years old but she was way too immature to start so left her till she was 4, for the next 12 months she moved like a cart horse, now she is totally different, never going to be a world beater, but a good solid riding club horse that can nicely turn her good to anything and has 3 fab paces.

Yay!! This is exactly what I need to hear :) :) Thank you. I know my mare will be fabulous at her job for me but I would so like someone we work with to see through the lumpy stage and share the excitement of starting out with a young horse. I have done this before enough times to know how much things change and one of the very best things about a young horse is knowing that and dreaming of all the things you might enjoy together. :)
 

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Unfortunately I think there are some pretty insecure trainers out there who either worry too much about people's opinions of them (either the client might not feel they have achieved enough, or someone else might judge them based on seeing their clients), so they rush you through things so it seems like they can achieve alot. Or in the case of another post, they somehow feel better and braver if they make others feel inadequate. I wouldn't worry about this instructors opinion, just take your time and enjoy your horse x
 

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My trainer thinks any horse is capable of doing the movements up to Elementary and probably further. Any horse won't go out and get the big scores but should manage all the movements, might find getting the right frame more difficult depending on conformation, some struggle with the medium paces but find the lateral work dead easy. Unless you are aiming to go out and win I'd ignore her comments and if it suits you to continue having lessons, do that until it's no longer what you want. However, you might find her attitude to your horse difficult to deal with, I know I would unless I was in total agreement!
 

planete

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Why do so many trainers think they have the right to make derogatory remarks? They are being paid to improve the horse and rider in front of them and anybody making derogatory remarks would never see my money again. In fact, the worse the picture, the more room there is for improvement and scope to prove you are a great trainer surely? (well, IF you are!)
 

palo1

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Why do so many trainers think they have the right to make derogatory remarks? They are being paid to improve the horse and rider in front of them and anybody making derogatory remarks would never see my money again. In fact, the worse the picture, the more room there is for improvement and scope to prove you are a great trainer surely? (well, IF you are!)

Yes quite!! I think I just felt it was a good opportunity to try some new things. Hey ho, things don't always work out how you think! :)
 

palo1

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My trainer thinks any horse is capable of doing the movements up to Elementary and probably further. Any horse won't go out and get the big scores but should manage all the movements, might find getting the right frame more difficult depending on conformation, some struggle with the medium paces but find the lateral work dead easy. Unless you are aiming to go out and win I'd ignore her comments and if it suits you to continue having lessons, do that until it's no longer what you want. However, you might find her attitude to your horse difficult to deal with, I know I would unless I was in total agreement!

Thank you - I have always been told the same about most horses being able to compete up to Elementary and I have no illusions about my committment to training in order to get decent scores or win - the horse (any horse) is the least of my competitive 'problems' !! I had thought vaguely that I would quite like a stab at being better at flatwork though so it would be helpful to have a trainer that loves my mare for what she is and is happy to improve whatever we can so that if I choose to compete we can at least enjoy it. That certainly would be a really good goal for me as a rider and would be great for Alw to learn how to use herself in a good and healthy way. :)
 

milliepops

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Thank you - I have always been told the same about most horses being able to compete up to Elementary and I have no illusions about my committment to training in order to get decent scores or win - the horse (any horse) is the least of my competitive 'problems' !! I had thought vaguely that I would quite like a stab at being better at flatwork though so it would be helpful to have a trainer that loves my mare for what she is and is happy to improve whatever we can so that if I choose to compete we can at least enjoy it. That certainly would be a really good goal for me as a rider and would be great for Alw to learn how to use herself in a good and healthy way. :)
i think this is the position i would take. I just remember how rubbish Kira was in the school when I started with her, and how open minded my trainer was to look at her and go, yeah, she's 14 hands square and has a funny attitude, but she's your horse so let's make her the best she can be.
If you start putting limitations that low on right at the start then the only sure thing is that you won't end up developing the horse's full potential.

I've had a trainer before who basically saw all the limitations that my previous horse had and told me we'd never amount to much, and then by complete fortune I won a lesson with CDJ who completely lifted the wool from my eyes and showed me all the possibilities. If it suits you to have eyes on the ground now then carry on, but i personally would be too frustrated by knowing the trainer didn't really feel at all ambitious for me.
 

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This reminds my of the xc clinic thread about instructors. I wouldn't waste my money on this one. If your friend will allow you to use her arena, is there any reason why she can't be your eyes on the ground for safety's sake/ a bit of assistance if necessary?
 
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I've always thought welshies mature quite late. Saw a photo of a friend's now 8yo Sec D on FB and he's a totally different look to when I knew him at 4. He was fairly uninspiring then but she knows her welshies and he's stunning now - took a while to develop his bottom!

But personally I think a decent instructor should be able to work with what's in front of them even if it's not the next Valegro.
 

palo1

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i think this is the position i would take. I just remember how rubbish Kira was in the school when I started with her, and how open minded my trainer was to look at her and go, yeah, she's 14 hands square and has a funny attitude, but she's your horse so let's make her the best she can be.
If you start putting limitations that low on right at the start then the only sure thing is that you won't end up developing the horse's full potential.

I've had a trainer before who basically saw all the limitations that my previous horse had and told me we'd never amount to much, and then by complete fortune I won a lesson with CDJ who completely lifted the wool from my eyes and showed me all the possibilities. If it suits you to have eyes on the ground now then carry on, but i personally would be too frustrated by knowing the trainer didn't really feel at all ambitious for me.

I think you have put your finger on the problem - I am not especially ambitious but as a teacher I know just how vital it is to have high aspirations and real belief in your students. It is actually the magical part of my job, especially when the student I am looking at doesn't have much self belief or current evidence of natural talent. The thing I have learnt and now know (which my students don't!!) is that every single one has more ability than they think. It is my job as a teacher to provide the rocket fuel of ambition, confidence, improving skill and the feeling that your teacher is on the journey with you. We don't need ambition for the sake of competitive success but I DO need an instructors ambition for us to help me as a rider and my horse as a ridden horse. Young horses are wonderful things and I do need someone who can celebrate Alw's youth and development however that pans out.
 

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One important aspect of schooling is that a well-schooled horse develops the right muscles to carry his rider without damaging himself in the process. That alone is a worthwhile goal for any rider and teacher to achieve. The worse the horse is put together, the more vital it becomes for the horse's welfare that he learns to use himself correctly. (I am not referring to the OP 's horse by the way! :)). So any half decent teacher should feel duty bound to help every combination in front of them, whether they are heading for glory or not.
 

palo1

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One important aspect of schooling is that a well-schooled horse develops the right muscles to carry his rider without damaging himself in the process. That alone is a worthwhile goal for any rider and teacher to achieve. The worse the horse is put together, the more vital it becomes for the horse's welfare that he learns to use himself correctly. (I am not referring to the OP 's horse by the way! :)). So any half decent teacher should feel duty bound to help every combination in front of them, whether they are heading for glory or not.

Absolutely right! I have had some funny old horses in my time and always managed to help them to carry me to stay healthy (barring accidents of course) -that is entirely the point of schooling for me as I haven't ever really managed to find my competitive mojo :) :) I am quite happy to work away at home producing a horse that is comfortable, balanced and responsive - I like that more than anything really. :)
 

palo1

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This is the over height welshie from the 3/4yo thread? If so she looks lovely and should be a lovely versatile allrounder so stay positive!!

'over-height'?!! Nooooo, she is perfect!!:D:D:D Yes, she should be absolutely perfectly blooming capable of doing anything I ask really (prelim+ dressage - who knows how amazing she COULD be!; jumping up to 90/100 (should be a cinch considering her breeding and antics in the field; and long rides over the Welsh hills). I think my very modest expectations are part of the 'problem' for the instructor; we probably don't know each other enough at this point for her to get that whilst I don't especially want to compete I do have other goals. Perhaps she thinks that as I am not competitive, that her approach might be easier for me?! Who knows, it's not currently helpful though I have only seen her once and probably won't bother again. I have tried to have that conversation with her btw as I believe in being straight and honest but I am not sure how much was received.
 

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From the pictures on the other thread I thought your horse looked lovely Palo. All youngsters change so much, and go through a gazillion different phases along the way especially as they are growing, it changes their bodies and frequently their movement too, its normal. I dont think that the trainer has to necessarily like your horse, although it helps if they do, but they have to believe that improvements can be made, and do their best to help you and your horse to be the best you can both be.

The first dressage trainer I ever had did not like my horse at first, and was blunt with me about what we might achieve (novice if we worked very hard), but once she told me her opinion, and I accepted it, it was never mentioned again, and my trainer worked as hard as she could to improve us. She did not teach us any differently, she did her best, and gradually over time, she grew to love my horse and she trained us all the way to GP.

But if the trainers opinion makes you feel depressed about your horse, then its not right, and you need to find a trainer who you feel you can believe in.
 

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Ignore it.
When people doubted me and my pony, I managed to drag her as far as BD elementary (training medium). Prove to thstvtrainer just what your gorgeous pony is capable of.
 

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I was told some years ago that any horse should be able to do a medium test provided they had no underlying issues. That isn't to say they could be competitive and nowadays there is a definite improvement in the quality of the hoses out competing but if you are not going out to win I don't see any reason why you can't go out and do a prelim test later this year.

Some years ago I bred a showjumper who to be honest is a bit of a dork. My trainer, who is a dressage teams selector, first saw him walk across the yard as a four year old and immediately said that he thought he would go GP at which comment we fell about laughing. Well we aren't laughing now as he was just about to do his first inter 2 before lockdown started. He certainly is not a conventional big flashy moving dressage horse and tested us sorely when he was backed and is a consistent mid 60% horse but with good help and encouragement from said trainer he has motored up the levels.

It probably depends on how much you take this trainer's comments to heart as to whether it is worth carrying on with them or whether it would be more beneficial to find some-one else. Without the belief of my trainer I would still probably be bumbling around at novice with him.
 

milliepops

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I was told some years ago that any horse should be able to do a medium test provided they had no underlying issues. That isn't to say they could be competitive and nowadays there is a definite improvement in the quality of the hoses out competing but if you are not going out to win I don't see any reason why you can't go out and do a prelim test later this year.

Some years ago I bred a showjumper who to be honest is a bit of a dork. My trainer, who is a dressage teams selector, first saw him walk across the yard as a four year old and immediately said that he thought he would go GP at which comment we fell about laughing. Well we aren't laughing now as he was just about to do his first inter 2 before lockdown started. He certainly is not a conventional big flashy moving dressage horse and tested us sorely when he was backed and is a consistent mid 60% horse but with good help and encouragement from said trainer he has motored up the levels.

It probably depends on how much you take this trainer's comments to heart as to whether it is worth carrying on with them or whether it would be more beneficial to find some-one else. Without the belief of my trainer I would still probably be bumbling around at novice with him.

so much of this rings true for me.
There's also a difference between an owner/rider wanting to train their horse up as well as they can within their own limitations, and someone thinking they are going to be smashing out the 70s scores all the way up the levels. A good trainer will be able to tell who is who and what is the appropriate definition of success for each combination. We've started toward GP stuff with mine, not because we're nailing 70% at small tour because mine is a 60s horse all the way up and that's a bloody good effort for her, but she's ready for it. Some trainers might be snooty about combinations that are not going to get stratospheric results, but I like that mine sees my horse for what she is and we are learning together just doing our best :)
 

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'She is a baby, I'm not writing her off just yet' would be along the lines of my response.

Everyone has a type, its just learning to accept that not everyone likes the same flavour.
 
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