What do we think of these stallions?

[Blaise]

Just wanting to know what people think of them really. I'm not thinking of putting my mare in foal anytime soon as she's only 4 and want to see how she turns out ridden first but would like to someday. The mare is an Appaloosa x TB so would like a Paint/QH as i'm really interested in Western disciplines. Do you think this would be a good combination? I like the look of these but will be the first to admit i dont know a whole lot about choosing stallions.

http://www.stallionsonline.co.uk/stallion_22760.html

http://www.stallionsonline.co.uk/stallion_21484.html

http://www.stallionsonline.co.uk/stallion_21350.html

I can understand how this last one might not be everyone's cup of tea but i like him

http://www.stallionsonline.co.uk/stallion_23298.html

 

[competitiondiva]

Ok, not my best area, western!! But conformationally I don't like any of the first three! But I do like the last one!!!

 

[Jamana]

I agree, like the last one best. I don't like any of the first 3, but if i had to choose one of those it would be the first one. The third is very lacking behind esp for a western horse.

 

[Alexart]

Would have to see a conformational shot of your mare to see what compliments her.
As for the stallions the last one is a better quality animal but he is a halter horse - maybe go for a working one instead. The third one has awful conformation, I'd say they are just keeping his nuts on because of his colour.

 

[LazyS]

Personally I would not mix the appaloosa and paint genes - you will end up with a true American horse - with stars & stripes!! If I were you I would go for a quarter horse stallion (visit the AQHA UK site or Western Horse UK have a stallion guide). If you put your mare to a solid quarter horse you are more likely to bring out the lovely appaloosa markings AND have yourself a useful western horse AND also be able to register offspring as an appaloosa with the APHC (USA & UK) and show it (at halter) while you are waiting for the years to go by to get around to riding it. Also if you decide to sell the offspring you are more likely to sell it as an appaloosa than a pintaloosa. (Apologies to people who have one of these - but like people who dislike 'coloureds' I do not like mixing the two together). There are some lovely horses at stud at Mendip Stud in Somerset, sure they could help you. I have an appaloosa stallion myself but not sure he is what you would be looking for as he is foundation bred - whereby there is not so much quarter horse in the last give generations. If you are interested there are stallions on the ApHC UK website (which is pretty up to date).
Good luck.

 

[AmyMay]

Pepsi is lovely - the first two I don't like.

And the final one - I think - may have that extra muscle thing that many quarter horses have - which is some sort of genetic fault actively bred to produce these massive muscled, deformed looking stallions. Horrid, horrid, horrid.

 

[Alexart]

I think the extra muscle thing is called steroids!!!

 

[AmyMay]

I think the extra muscle thing is called steroids!!!

Possibly - but I know they do breed some genetic trait in some of these stallions that produces this muscle deformity.

 

[htobago]

And the final one - I think - may have that extra muscle thing that many quarter horses have - which is some sort of genetic fault actively bred to produce these massive muscled, deformed looking stallions. Horrid, horrid, horrid.

The genetic fault causes a disease called HYPP, and it comes mainly from a stallion called Impressive, who appears in the last stallion's pedigree... I would want to check his HYPP status before considering him.

I call these steroidy-looking QH/Paint horses 'HYPPOS'!

But actually that last stallion isn't anywhere near as hippo-like as some of the US halter champions.

None of the other 3 looks very impressive (in either sense!) to me - sorry!

 

[AmyMay]

The genetic fault causes a disease called HYPP, and it comes mainly from a stallion called Impressive, who appears in the last stallion's pedigree... I would want to check his HYPP status before considering him.

Phew, thought I may have made it up then for a minute.

 

[Touchwood]

I am not really a western person either, but we have a lovely boy who stands with us. He is currently at home in Wales, but is available at stud this season

He is a lovely stamp of a horse, a performer himself and has a wonderful temperament.

 

[jamesmead]

From his website:

APHA #299922 AQHA #4640684
1995 Chestnut Overo Stallion
HYPP N/N . 16 Hands. 1450lbs
Sire: Barlink Macho Man (multiple world champion sire)
Dam: Zip To Dawn by Zip To Impress (Superior halter mare)

So he is tested HYPP free. A little unfair, I think, to suggest that his conformation, as admired within his breed, is due to either to this defect or to "steroids".

 

[Alexart]

It's caused by the double muscle gene - they selectively breed for it in cattle and sheep to produce more meat, it doesn't look right in horses though especially since they like them with tiny neat feet and upright pasterns for the halter shows, the majority of the extreme ones are never ridden though as they physically can't be, they're also pumped full of high protein feed to bulk them up. This is a yearling quarter horse can you believe it!!!

I think the ones that actually are ridden and worked are the ones to go for!

 

[KarynK]

Like I always say with these things a bit of homework will stand you in good stead!

It’s not easy to look critically at your own mare!! So if you find it hard then draft some help in from a breeder or judge or even your vet and pick out the problem areas (there might not be any of course!). Now you have that in mind look to what you really want to see in her foal and of course what you want to do with it when it is being ridden. Now you can look for the best Stallion to get you what you need.

Western horses vary even within breeds and the different disciplines at the top level give you very different specialist types that actually carry across the breeds!!!

A note on HYPP - a dominantly inherited trait with incomplete penetrance which means that the severity of symptoms varies between individuals, with some positive horses being without symptoms altogether, some are treated with diet and others need medication (this is the same in Humans with HYPP. The symptoms can lead to uncontrolled muscle twitching or profound muscle weakness, and in severe cases, may lead to collapse and/or death. Despite extensive research projects no relationship has been found between large muscle diameter and the gene mutation. In fact the appearance of heavy muscling is regulated by a separate group of genes. The AQHA have recognised that decreasing the incidence of HYPP is important for the long-term health of the Quarter Horse breed and from 2007, all Impressive progeny are required to be parentage verified and HYPP and any that test H/H are not eligible for registration.


Halter horses (in hand showing) are rarely ridden and their requirement is a good conformation and temperament for their purpose, they are rarely expected to move more than a few strides of jog in a show class and usually show a lot of musculature and are required to have exemplary manners and stand quietly regardless of gender. (Hence their nickname “lead and feed”!!


Some examples:
http://justwinranch.com/images/yellafront.jpg
http://www.utahpainthorseclub.com/MrSundayKid.jpg
http://www.halterhorse.org/viewad.asp?id=50672338876100001


Western ridden showing looks for a very similar type in Western Ridden and “English” ridden classes though the English specialists tend to be quite tall, they are ridden on a long rein and are again required to have very good manners. They of course move at walk, jog and lope and have to be very responsive with some of the English ridden required to jump; they tend to have less visible musculature than the Halters and are rangier in build.

Here are some examples of English and Western Pleasure horses from all 3 breeds.
http://www.krymsunfarms.ca/images/bunnynew.jpg
http://www.shannondalefarm.com/img3.jpg
http://www.charolotranch.com/updates/09nov15/chips and roses1.jpg
http://www.aqha.com/bin/v/l/junior_hunter_under_saddle.jpg
http://www.mountainviewpainthorseranch.com/images/standing/CPHD-Felipe-Ad-09-84pct.jpg
http://www.hopescreekranch.com/sales/ip/hus2002world.jpg

Then you have the Trail horses which can come from different types working and show as this is sort of a crossover area, but they need to be very quiet obedient and responsive to negotiate the obstacles calmly and without fault.
http://americashorsedaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2008-Junior-Trail-WC-199x300.jpg
This is one of my mares' full brother White Hot in having a day off (he is a champion working cow horse)
http://www.spidercreekranch.com/images/WHBridge.jpg

Then you move into working territory! The lines in these horses are often similar and crossing lines between these disciplines does take place a fair bit. Horses that have made it to the top of these disciplines are tough hard working horses that have to have excellent temperaments and sound conformation.

Games horses – (a bit like adult gymkhanas - a lot of fun at speed) But games are designed to use the speed and agility and manoeuvrability of these horses, the most well known would be Barrel racing. Of course we don’t see much of these in the UK.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Barrel_Racing.jpg
http://www.ibstables.com/images/rose-04-wrld-steer-daubing-.jpg
http://www.nationalwestern.com/nwss/rodeo/graphics/teampenning.jpg


Reiners – have to be fluid movers, athletic well balance responsive and capable of controlled speed, acceleration and deceleration and sudden changes of direction, but they do not have to work with cattle!

I have a daughter of this chap out of the sister of the horse above and she was scored by the vet at the Futurity this year 9.5 out of 10 as a yearling. He himself has a full brother who is a reined cow horse.
http://www.aprha.com/images/auction/ma_thunderstorm.jpg
http://www.flyingpranch.com/1000_0086.jpg
http://www.thegreenshirt.com/Shawn Flarida pics/wimpy3_web.jpg

Working (Reined) Cow Horses / Ropers - They work cattle! So have to be intelligent enough to think at speed for themselves as well as combine the attributes of the Reiners. A roper has to keep the cow under control whilst the rider dismounts to work with it and a working cow horse must anticipate a cow’s next move at speed and direct it, but also it must perform a reining pattern to show similar attributes to a reiner. There are variants on these main events but when working with cattle the requirements are the same.
White Hot again at the day job this time
http://www.spidercreekranch.com/images/smallworkingcow.JPG
http://www.swtcutting.com/blog/test_pages/images/jacob_wagner.jpg
http://www.sandimasrodeo.com/Site/images/039.jpg

Cutters – the ultimate in brain power as this event is all down to the horse! Once the cow is cut from the herd it is down to the horse to work the cow and keep it away from the others, anticipate it’s moves and show athleticism and speed in doing this, they should dominate the cow but not be overbearing with it and their rider does not interfere. They are the cattle dogs of the horse world they are small compact power balls!
http://www.smart-little-lena.info/lena/cutting2.jpg
http://paintedcanvasappys.com/images/ike2.jpg
http://www.faniq.com/images/blog/25deb550300bb538ee7ae0fe58fc69f4.jpg

There are different types within these disciplines of course but generally you can spot the difference in type for each purpose, be it Paint, QH or Appaloosa so you can choose the best stallion for you.

Of course with Appaloosas and Quarter Horses you can still register the foal but not so with paints, although in the USA the lines are blurring and there are registered QH’s that show paint patterns and at least two pure registered QH’s that show spotted coat patterns!!!

So when the time comes, look at your mare, look at what you wish to produce, decide which will get you what you want, decide your budget as some of those (especially the workers) above have a VERY high stud fee! Then go shopping!!!

 

[Blanche]

Here is a link to UC Davis with info about HYPP . I hope it woks as I am a slight numpty with computers .
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/hypp.php

I have an AQHA mare who is full sister to a two times world champion who whilst being shown at Halter ( so in a very muscled state and NN before anyone starts ) started competing at heading and heeling and in one weekend won eleven points , so no slouch !! That horse is now competing at Performance Halter and doing very well .

In reply to OP query I personally wouldn't put your mare to a paint but would stick to an appy or quarter horse . And that depends on what your mare is like and what you want to breed . I think Karen K has given alot good food for thought in her post . Have fun choosing .

 

[jomiln]

What about this Quarter Horse -

http://www.stallionsonline.co.uk/stallion_30777.html

No Impressive in his lines. Has bred to Appaloosa mares and produced spots - see progeny at bottom of page.

 

[volatis]

thank you for a super informative post Karen

 

[htobago]

thank you for a super informative post Karen

Ditto! KarenK's post is probably the best summary I have seen of all the various Western types and disciplines - and I am a regular visitor to US forums where I try to learn about these breeds!

 

[KarynK]

No problem, it takes a bit of getting your head around and there is a lot of misconceptions too it's not all cowboy stuff, though this lot really are and have loads of fun, it's quite a big sport!! http://sevenpondsranch.com/ranchtube/mountedshooter.html
(It could only really happen there, can you see your average TB or Warmblood playing that game??)


I don't have a lot of experience with the Halter horses but I must say I am very impressed with the working stallions that I have used so far, my High Noon daughter out of my TB is a lovely person with super conformation, she shows no sign at all of her mother’s occasional red mists and is about to be started under saddle and I cant wait. Although her father is not a big horse she has made near enough her mother's height of around 16hh.

The mares first foal by an American import Appaloosa with a lot of QH's in the back pedigree is a powerful compact horse, about 15.3 he has no fear and a jump you would not believe, he can't be bothered with grid work so clears the lot takes him self round the school sets himself up and does it again!!! If his owner is late he will jump the gate and take himself into the stables to wait for her. He also has a wicked sense of humour that not everyone shares!!

The filly I bred from MA Thunderstorm out of a High Noon daughter is very special, she is a quite unassuming little girl but when she wants to get somewhere quick wow!! The vet at Catherston was very impressed with her, I just hope they start catering more for reiners in the future at the BEF as it is a fast growing sport, well if Anky does it for a bit of R&R it can't be all bad!!

These Western working horses can add a lot to many breeding programs they can inject power agility and level headedness. I know a QH/TB open Eventer years ago, a really sensible yet talented horse with a brilliant engine! I can't wait till Cruiseline's Private B Riker baby starts his competitive career. Incidentally his father is by Private Account a Halter Champion, yet was successful at reining, though there are pleasure and racing lines on the dams side.

I didn't mention the racing (another type!) Paint, QH and Appaloosa, they have quite a bit of TB in them these days but it is fun to watch and all over in a blink, they are so fast and literally take a breath at the start and go for it!

Impressive was one of natures surprises he was actually 11/16ths TB! Inbred 2x3x4 on TB Three Bars http://www.circledhorses.com/three_bars_race.jpg who won $20,840 and became a leading sire of racing Quarter Horses. The mutation causing HYPP is likely to have happened in Impressive himself as no other source has been found. Here is a picture link to Impressive see what you think!!
http://www.hopefulfarmpaints.com/impressive-large.jpg

Oh and once a horse test N/N for HYPP it has gone, just like the grey gene, the only way to get it back is to breed to a positive horse. Personally I would not avoid impressive in a pedigree as long as the horse I was using was tested N/N. My Own mare is a GG Granddaughter, she is N/N.

 

[UnaB]

Bar Mount Boogie is producing some nice foals but was very overused last season so there are a LOT of his foals around/due.

If colour is not as important a friend of mine has an outstanding QH stallion, top money earner they imported from america. Amazing pedigree and a perfect temperment. Here he is:

http://www.touchwoodstud.co.uk/stallions/zz_hoss.aspx

 

[tuppence's fortune]

http://www.thehorseexchange.com/images/StallionAds/d49e5030f5ce9441fafbe6e7c28f2751.jpg


called
JCS ARAMOON

he is based in uk and i think is stunning
my friend used him with her lep spot mare and produce a starnge but fab little filly she is paint with spots! v beautiful

 

[midnight.shadow]

I have a 4 year old arab x american paint mare. Her sire is bar mount boogie and her dam is vlaq narya. she is so laid back and takes everything in her stride. her temperment is fantastic and she is so loving its unreal. iv never known a horse to be so gentle and quiet. If i had to go through all the "picking a good quality stallion" id most definatley choose "buddy" all over again! Their may be a few of his foals around but as you can see by his pictures he is a real stunner and such a lovely chap.

 

[attheponies]

Thought you might be interested in these two at http://www.dashdancestud.co.uk/

The Perlino QH is sire to my filly