What do you guys make of this? youtube vid

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teapot

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN95UnznS9g

Was posted on another forum. Here's a horsey debate for you but let's try and keep it safe/clean etc.

Anyway - thoughts and feelings? I've never seen this done before either online or in real life as it were so can't offer a experienced opinion but would be interested to see what you guys think

Only thing I can say is that it reminds me of that scene in The Horse Whisperer where he pulls Pilgrim to the ground etc
 
I think it can be beneficial... But only with the right sort of horses. I.E. the alpha-male/female horse who tries to boss you around, however I doubt it would work with the horse who is naughty because it is trying to get away.

In the video, it is clear the horse was at first trying to size up the man, and then backed away. Personally, I think it should have been left at that. Any real horseperson should know that the horse backed off so that meant submission. By dragging the horse into the pen, it wound the horse up and naturally, the natural fight/flight instinct happening here, the horse fought him.

I would not have had the horse treated in this way, as it seems to be a young horse who needs careful putting in it's place, not it's legs knocked out underneath him.
 
Ye ive seen this type of thing before on YouTube. Its rather odd but it works!! seems to be a mind thing i suppose. If I had a diffecult pony that was a [****] i'd get someone like that to deal with it. Didnt seem to harm the horse... Only my opinion of coarse..
 
Certainly wouldn't want just anyone trying it and also think it would only be suitable for some horses.

Personally I wouldn't want to encourage a horse to throw itself on the ground especially if I ever wanted to ride it! But I suppose its only used in extreme cases...

I know it’s a different debate, but surely the position he pulls the horse’s head/neck into for a prolonged period is similar to that of hyperflexion and so some may have similar concerns re. the possible physical damage…
 
horrid in MO. Horse looks fairly stressed to me and think about the pressure on the mouth?
Very much seems like an aggressive technique and if I am correct think it has something to do with choking off blood supply?
 
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with choking off blood supply?

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From what was posted on other forum (where I first saw link) - it's something to do with making them use up all their energy as quickly as possible or something along those lines

But I'm hoping someone on here will be able to explain it
 
Right, have been reading
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It is called the Endorphin Tap, and is used for making the horse relax so you can do things with them like injections, clipping, desensitising etc.

It works by lowering the horse's blood pressure, so yes TripleSandH, effectively (to a point) cutting off the blood supply. It can also be done in a headcollar, so I wouldn't personally be worried about the pressure on the mouth.
There are two types of tap: the Half-tap and the Full-tap. The half-tap works by just tilting the horse's head for periods of time, with no lying down involved. However the full-tap is tilting the horse's neck to an extreme that the blood pressure becomes so low that the horse looses the ability to balance and use it's legs properly, and the person can then pull the horse over.

The reason the horse was pushed to the floor in that video was similar to that in the Horse Whisperer - respect. The idea, i think, is to teach the horse that it can use all of it's energy but it won't get away from you and you can always become all powerful and make it lay down.

Personally, I think that there are only a few horses that this will truly work on. In my opinion, it was used on the chestnut horse wrongly. To be honest, I would have got out a lunge line and schooling whip and taught it that I would not hurt it - it was scared and mis-trusting.
 
I agree, it is bullying and would definatly not build up a strong bond between horse and owner. My mare is alpha mare of the field, and is a cow in the stable, but I'd much rather work on with her, even if it takes months rather than this quick fix solution, which wouldwreck everything I have achieved with her so far!
 
It's endorphin tap, and it works with ANY horse and it isn't much different from twitching to be honest. It's quick, non-harmful and does the job efficiently but shouldn't be done by someone who doesn't have a clue what they are doing. I personally prefer the longer route but I fully understand why some people want quicker results....which is often better for some horses anyway.
 
The horse reminded me of a chestnut mare I had, rearing to avoid doing anything it doesn't want to do. If this method has long lasting results then it's good I think, at the end of the day a horse can quite easily become a killing machine if consistently allowed to get the better of humans and I'd say that if this method worked then that particular horse was saved from ending up a knacker. The idea of using up the horses energy is the same principle as join-up. I believe this method is used quite a lot in Argentina and have you seen how they ride their racehorses?!! Basically, bareback.
 
Yeah, I think its bullying. Yanking the horse in the mouth will make it fall over eventually I guess. And the fact that the horse could throw itself over in the panic - I would never risk that.

There are no short cuts in the horse world. Maybe they should have tried to work out why the horse reared in the first place.
 
I've seen something similar done in Austrailia when a young horse reared (but the rider was mounted). Horse in Austrailia didn't seem hurt or distressed by the experience, so guess it is O.K. if done by someone who knows what they are doing (prefer the long route myself).
 
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I see a sight more bullying with morons thinking they know what they are doing onboard their horses, to be quite frank. Take a peek at most show jumping and dressage competitions.....now there you will see REAL bullying!

Any sort of endorphin-release system works on every horse but there will always be some people who do not understand it.
 
I personally don't like the look of it but I haven't got a clue about this training method so I don't consider myself experienced enough to put forward a valid comment on it.
 
I agree with you to an extent Tia, & also have witnessed far more cruelty with riders that believe they can sort a problem when actually they havent got a clue. I did not catch on as to what this particular horse had done previously to warrant this method. However, should it be a real problem horse I would much rather see it dealt with in this manner by someone who in my opinion looked quite professional & knew what he was doing. I did not see anything brutal or cruel, or mouth pulling. Just submission from the horse. I feel that certain horses have to be put into a state of submission if they are ever to respect a person. ( not all of course) Horse do not like being put onto the ground & losing control. But for me that type of horse has only one alternative & thats the bullet.
 
It was a confirmed rearer; it used to strike out at the handlers and try to down them.

Nice to see that it was cured rather than shot though, so it really was a happy ending.
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I agree with Tia to a certain extent. While I would not use this method on my horses, I don't think I can be too quick to judge these people who look for something like this when it comes to a chronic rearing problem like this horse seems to have had. Sometimes it is either a method like this or PTS...

I know a horse, an ex-racehorse, who a friend of mine bought from a dealer. At first she was a lovely horse, but as her confidence grew, so did the problems. She started rearing occasionally, and it became a more and more regular occurence. She became impossible to handle, frightening to ride and a danger to anyone who had anything to do with her.

Unfortunately, the mare ended up being PTS because my friend did not want her to be sold/given to anyone else for the fear she would kill someone (she was definitely capable of it). She couldn't keep her herself as she was a forty five year old woman who felt unable to deal with her any longer. She very sadly made the decision and was heartbroken the day it happened. But she knows she did the right thing!

I just wonder how she would have reacted to something like this... It was before I knew of people like Richard Maxwell, who I would have definitely advised her to use if the situation were now. But having seen how that worked, I think my friend would have been very tempted to have tried it as a last resort before having the mare PTS.

This is just my opinion, and i know there will be people on here who will not understand who I can agree with something like this. But I think it can work in the right hands and should not be imitated by amateurs.
 
This is actually my mate Paul, one of my friends from the US is actually in Japan breaking yearlings with him. Paul is one of the most experienced horseman I know, and can confidently handle the most difficult horses.

I hate to be blunt - but the reality is 99.9% of the people here could not handle that horse - regardless of what your Parelli book tells you a carrot stick can do!

These horses in Japan are a business - if they can not be handled, they end up in your Dog's dish! I say good job to Paul!
 
i have watched loads of this guys stuff and seen his web site i think he is very talented horse man and he isnt in any way cruel at all ,he is amazing
 
on a confirmed rearer such as this horse (and think it was even rearing while being led) I think the solution has to be pretty radical. The alternative is pretty much a bullet tbh. The method didn't look agressive or bullying to me, just firm and very clear. No doubt in the horse's mind either!
 
It's very hard to pass judgement on the training of this horse since we don't know the horses background and what actually triggered this behaviour. I have seen this done by Australian horseman in very extreme circumstances and clearly it works. Its worth saying though that this is a last resort and I would personally not enjoy taking this route unless absolutely neccessary. Obviously its a better result than PTS but at what cost? I would be interested in seeing the long term effects that this 'training' has on a horse as I personally see it as breaking the horses spirit and it would be difficult to say whether the horse ever truly trusted humans again. This is just my opinion and I haven't really gone into depth studying the effects of this method but like I say- its not something I would be happy having done to my horse unless I could be satisfied I had done all I could in training and that the long term outcome would be favourable.
 
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