what do you take failed vetting on flexion test

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silverstar

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to mean? Horse looks nice but why put that on the ad? I suppose they're being honest but any vet can make a horse lame on flexion cant they?
 
I think quite a lot of people would take failed flexion tests with a pinch of salt these days. As you say it is not that difficult (apparently) to 'make' a horse lame. I'd possibly still go and look, depending what I wanted the horse for. I think the sellers are just being honest by being up front about the vetting?
 
I took the chance on a horse that miserably failed on LF flexion, as in hopping. He was cheapish and the best Id seen by far. That was 8 years ago and touch wood, hes never had a days lameness on that leg. Apparantly any vet can make a horse lame depending on how the leg is held for flexion. If my horse would have been expensive, I probably would have walked away or had xrays done. It can cause a problem with insurance, if you are insuring for an amount that needs a valid vet certificate.
 
Our 19yr old pony would definitely fail a flexion test and he has windgalls like you wouldnt believe but in all he time we have owned him (3 yrs) he has never had a problem with his legs.

I would take the fact that they are up front about it that it wouldnt be too much of a concern. Its good that they are just being honest about it and I would still go and see the horse.

If I was selling our pony I would be upfront so not as to waste a prospective purchasers time and they can then make their own mind up whether they came to see him or not.

Go take a look. You never know it could be the horse of your dreams :-)
 
Just to add abit along Louby's lines, if our 6yr (then 4.5yr) had failed it would have made me think twice mainly because of her asking price.
 
I'd just assume they are keen to sell and know that the horse may fail any future vetting on flexion tests so are avoiding going through the whole process of viewing/offer/vetting with anyone who would def not buy of a horse failed for that reason. That being said if you won't have access to the full report and have a specific job for the animal in mind it might still be worth getting a vetting to see what, if any, other issues the horse might have.
 
I agree with the posts above - it sounds like he has failed a previous vetting, and the owners are being up front about it which is great.

It wouldn't stop me taking a look, but would depend on what you want from the horse, how old it is and how expensive!

If you want to do a bit of everything, RC etc and the horse is a teenager it wouldn't worry me.

If you want to do compete seriously and it is a relative youngster I probably would give it a miss - that's not to say he wouldn't do the job, it just maybe more of a risk that an issue would occur.

Also - don't forget that the vet takes into account what the buyer wants the horse for - if they wanted to compete at Advanced medium - it would be an issue, for happy hacking - it may not have been and would have probably passed!!

Vettings are a bloody nightmare as far as I am concerned - we had one "fail" as the pony was thought to be 4 y o, and the vet who had previously passported it aged it as 6. The vet carrying out the vetting thought the pony was too young to do what the buyer wanted - it is the toughest, strongest pony out - but hey, that's life!!

Conversely I spent a fortune on a full vetting on a horse that developed a shiver two months down the line.....

Personally I'd get the heart and eyes checked and leave it at that!

Right - will get off me soapbox now......
 
bertthefrog said:
I agree with the posts above - it sounds like he has failed a previous vetting, and the owners are being up front about it which is great.

It wouldn't stop me taking a look, but would depend on what you want from the horse, how old it is and how expensive!

If you want to do a bit of everything, RC etc and the horse is a teenager it wouldn't worry me.

If you want to do compete seriously and it is a relative youngster I probably would give it a miss - that's not to say he wouldn't do the job, it just maybe more of a risk that an issue would occur.

Also - don't forget that the vet takes into account what the buyer wants the horse for - if they wanted to compete at Advanced medium - it would be an issue, for happy hacking - it may not have been and would have probably passed!!

Vettings are a bloody nightmare as far as I am concerned - we had one "fail" as the pony was thought to be 4 y o, and the vet who had previously passported it aged it as 6. The vet carrying out the vetting thought the pony was too young to do what the buyer wanted - it is the toughest, strongest pony out - but hey, that's life!!

Conversely I spent a fortune on a full vetting on a horse that developed a shiver two months down the line.....

Personally I'd get the heart and eyes checked and leave it at that!

Right - will get off me soapbox now......
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I'm on the soapbox with you!

I tend not to have cheaper things vetted, especially ponies. For a cheaper youngster that I hope to do more in the future I'd do heart eyes and general leg check.

My friend's was vetted and seems to have stringhalt and mild narcolespsy - neither of which were noticed!

Another friend had a horse vetted, and it failed on flexion, but the vet was quite sensible, saying it wouldn't matter a jot for 90% of horses.
 
I would want to find out WHY the horse failed the flexion at the vetting. In terms of the buyer who wants to purchase, the vet only needs to say that the horse failed the vetting as it was lame after flexion - that's the end of the story as the purchase falls through at that stage. It's the owner who then needs to get a vet out to find out the cause of the problem. This can range from an off-day to a long term, debilitating problem.

Simply saying the horse failed at flexion tells you nothing about the risk you would be taking in buying it.
 
Booboos said:
I would want to find out WHY the horse failed the flexion at the vetting. In terms of the buyer who wants to purchase, the vet only needs to say that the horse failed the vetting as it was lame after flexion - that's the end of the story as the purchase falls through at that stage.
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Exactly the same here - also it could have other problems and failed in other areas - they tell you about the flexion as its the easiest thing to sell a horse with, it may have a massive heart murmer or something else (I know my mind is too suspisious but I have been sold and know people who have been sold one too many dodgey horses!!)
 
Flexion tests are very controversial and i believe they were considering banning them 2 years ago.

My old boy failed a rh flexion test, I still bought him and he was never lame in all the years I had him and we did everything.

Just sold a horse who has never been sick sorry or lame and he was1/10 lame after flexion - it causes a lot of angst amongst sellers and purchasers. Unnecessary imo.
 
Basically it tells you that if someone holds its leg up for a minute or two it will be lame for a few seconds, and if they don't it probably won't. If you're not likely to hold its leg up a lot I'd still consider buying it. It just shows a bit of arthiritus/stiffness in the stifle joint that probably won't effect the horse in normal life. if you were aiming at Badminton/Olympia it may be more of a problem. Most vets would discuss with you what they thought - so its not a black and white pass or fail, and if they wouldn't I'd be wary. At the end of the day the vet has to say whether they think the animal is suitable for the things that the purchaser wants to do, so you have to think carefully and tell the vet everything you would like to do with the horse - even in the future. This is the only real part of a vetting certificate that I care about..
 
I think it depends upon what you want the horse for and how expensive it is. The sellers are trying to avoid wasting their time or a buyers. But beware, it could have been bad luck or there could have been more to it.

If you plan to do more than just a bit of happy hacking or if the horse is expensive I would still have it vetted.

Be ready for the horse failing the flexions, it may not, the previous fail may have been a freak, but if it does be prepared to ask the vet detailed questions about the likely cause and the likely effect and whether there are any other signs to watch out for. We had one vetted that failed the flexions and what sealed it for us was that the vet said that the muscle over the quarters was uneven too and this taken with the failed flexion and a bit of puffyness *could* mean that the horse had a low level problem already. The failed flexion and the puffyness alone could have been a knock or bump and the uneven muscle alone could have just been poor schooling and one-sidedness but taken together it seemed more of a risk. The vet also thought the result was surprisingly bad for a horse of its age.

As we were wanting to compete (albeit only RC/low level affiliated) the vet warned us that the horse may not be up to the work we wanted long term and we walked away. Had we wanted to mainly hack we probably would have continued.
 
As all the others really - depending on cost/age I would almost certainly go and look. My 14 year old would fail a flexion probably, however he has been competing al summer very happily up to Intro level and never had a judge comment yet. Only reason I know he would fail is my instructor spotted him being marginally unlevel back in june, and I got the vet who flexion tested him and he was lame after the test. However vet didn't feel he was lame enough to xray/block, we gave him a week off, and he has been fine ever since!
 
I bought a horse who failed a flexion test 5 years ago. He's a warmblood who was then 16.2hh and cheap. He's now 17.2hh, a grade A show jumper and - touch wood - has never been been lame. I took a gamble and it paid off. However, I wouldn't have bought him if he'd been the price he was when he was first imported.

As others have said, if the horse is the right price and can do what you want him to do it's definitely worth a look.
 
Second what most people have said, I have two I know would not have passed both are now in their 20's done everything and never been lame.
I once sold a horse that I thought would fail the flexion test, I told the buyers before they had him vetted my doubts. He did fail, the attitude was he'd failed so there was point in continueing the vetting which when they where paying for a full vetting to me was wrong and I would have refused to pay the whole bill. So if you decide to have it vetted again make sure he checks him over completely
They still bought him as all they wanted was a safe hack I just knocked some money off him.
 
We bought a horse that had failed a flexion test last November, 2/10th on 1 leg, the potential buyers who had it vetted, walked away. We had known the horse for about 3 years and the owners were very surprised that it had failed as it had been doing really well at BE100 level. He has shown no signs of lameness at any time and my daughter has competed him at intermediate PC level including dressage and taken him to 3 RC championships this year, no judges have picked up any lameness or unbalance. However we have had to insure him for less than we paid as he was still showing 1 to 2/10th lame in the summer, NFU didn't want to know even though he was insured with them until we bought him and we only wanted to cover him for theft/death. Animal Friends were extremely good and understanding, apparently everyone in their equine department has a horse or rides so they got our business!
Not sure what we would have done if we hadn't known him though, but in this case they are being honest, which is what we would do if we ever sold, not that we will as we couldn't bring ouselves to sell the pony!
 
I would not let a vet do a flexion test on any horse I've ever sold.

Very few can do them properly.

Can be dangerous for the horse.

If the buyer insists, go buy else where.
 
tobehonest flexion tests are a waste of time, but you can always ask the owner to do one on the horse for you.

At least they are being honest.
 
From the other side, if you have a vet you trust doing the vetting, I think flexion tests are a very useful part of the vetting! They can show the start of arthritic changes which otherwise wouldn't be picked up. It's the same as trotting a horse on a circle on a hard surface, I would want to see it done, but wouldn't run off screaming if it showed an unlevel step or two, but it can show up any foot problems ;)

FWIW, I've both sold and brought horses that have had a full vetting, and passed all stages no problems at all, including flexions, so it is possible and there are plenty more horses out there that will pass over the ones that will fail....
 
Flexions are marmite in the horse world :D Some horses will fail them and go on to have long working lives and others that fail may well be lame within a few months.

FWIW I had both of my boys flexioned....both passed....however Lord now has stringhalt.....a "technical lameness" some will say, although he is not lame (has seen 2 very highly credited vets and both have said the same....he even has a sick note to stop the moaners :) )

Vettings are only valid for the time/ day they are done.
 
flexion tests have their place.

for instance my old lad at 16 started to show signs of a bit of stiffness when first moving off after being tied up and tacked up. at first put it down to arthritis, but got the vet to have a look at him and he was 9/10 lame after flexion despite otherwise appearing sound. turns out he had suspensory disease, was treated and was absoluting fine within a few months. if you'd been coming to look at him for sale and not bothered with flexion tests you'd have never known there was anything wrong with him, but the flexion test showed up a massive underlying problem that was bubbling away under the surface.

i would not be that concerned by a horse (esp a middle aged or older one) being 1/10 lame after flexion but it would make me look bloody hard at that leg to see if i could spot why.

people think the same about the trotting on a hard circle but it often shows up lamenesses that dont show elsewhere, esp foot lamenesses.

the key thing is finding a vet who will put all the findings into context and consider what you want to do with the horse before recommending it for purchase or not and not just saying walk away because it's 1/10 lame after flexion.

a vetting is only good for that day and only that vet's opinion so it's very important to get it done by someone decent - finding that person can be easier said than done. i think in these days of litigation it's far easier to fail a horse than seriously think about whether your findings will truly affect that horse doing what the purchaser wants to do with it.

when it comes to insurance though, we'd all be better off without vettings as they just exclude every tiny little finding that the vet notes down - total nightmare!
 
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