What do you think??

Lammy

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Since I started lunging my youngster (December 2016) he's always had a problem with one particular corner on the right rein. I've always thought it to be a napping issue, it always seemed to be at a point that he was going away from other horses. He will stop, occasionally throw a "tantrum" in the form of a small rear, ears back and either stop dead and refuse to move forwards or spin and go the other way. Sometimes it's in trot but he really seems to have a problem in canter. He is fine on the other rein, and is fine in every other corner on the right.

He's done it since before he'd ever seen a saddle and his current one fits well. I'm now thinking that instead of being behavioural it may be soreness. I know it's taken me a while for it to click that it might be pain but we did have a short period where he wasn't doing this at all. Today however he came in after having a month off due to a growth spurt and some really immature behaviour. He was perfectly behaved even after a month off but the corner was causing us problems again and his behaviour today was a real "no I can't do it!" small rears and really not happy. I also noticed whenever he did manage a few strides of canter it was always on the wrong leg whereas at any other point on the lunge he gets the correct lead every time.

I'm going to get a physio out to check him but not entirely sure where to start. He's sound in every other way and he hasn't actually been cantered under saddle yet. Has anyone had anything like this?

And here's a picture of the trouble maker and his antics today. I removed his foot from the tape 4 times whilst I was putting the third lot up to keep him imprisoned.
5dp7w1.jpg
 

cobgoblin

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What's in that corner? Is there a tree or a shady spot? Is there something that reflects the sun when travelling in that direction? Is the surface different there?

Lots of arenas have a spooky corner.
 

PonyIAmNotFood

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It may be that he can't keep his balance yet while napping, hence going on the wrong leg, or finding it hard so he rears instead etc. My youngster can't balance especially well when trying to nap as he is weak behind yet.
 

Nudibranch

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Does he do it anywhere else? Sounds like a lot of canter work for a young horse. What are you aiming for with your lungeing at the moment? Tbh I'd work on riding him out and about, with a focus on a good four time walk with a little trot so he builds up his strength and balance. Or long reining if you can do it and he needs the groundwork.
 

be positive

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What is he like if you lunge him somewhere different? the most likely answer is that it is a habit developed because there is something spooky in the one corner and by continuing to do the same thing in the same place he is just playing up because he can, they often only behave in a certain way on one rein, their brains do not work the way ours do so on one rein they may see or feel something that does not bother them the other way round.
I would long rein rather than lunge and see if he is better when you have more control and can move around a bit more in and out of the tricky area.

If he has only been in work since Dec he is still very green, will still be very immature even though he looks strong, he would probably benefit more from getting out hacking and being ridden than too much lunging anyway, I rarely lunge youngsters in canter as it is hard work and they learn more from getting out and cantering in straight lines than trying to balance on a small circle.
 

ycbm

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If they are going to be silly it will normally be on the right rein, because of the way their eyes work. If he's OK everywhere else I wouldn't worry about it and I would leave that corner until you ride him and can help him balance.
 

Lammy

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He came in yesterday with the view of me just hopping straight back on him and doing a bit of walk and trot, but he felt like he was going to explode so we settled for a quick (10 minutes ish) of lunging instead to get some pent up excitement out. In December I had to start lunging him sooner and more often than I would have liked due to the fact we had no turnout and it was the only way he could get any proper exercise. Thankfully since we've moved back in March he's only been lunged a handful of times and the last 2 times the problem has started again. He's been lead out on hacks and has slowly begun to be backed, he's started hacking and is good as gold. The aim is to be hacking him mostly with only a small amount of time spent in the school but I don't want to be pushing him if I feel there's some discomfort somewhere.

I was a bit tired when writing my OP so should clarify, it's not a "corner" as such more of a certain point on the circle, he does it whether I'm at the top of end, middle or bottom end of the school and it was the same point at our old yard which was actually when he was coming across the middle of the arena and nowhere near a corner or fence of any sort. It could easily be a napping problem or an unbalanced one which was what I thought leading up to this but I think I'll get someone to check him anyway as he's only 4 next month and I don't want his ridden experiences to be uncomfortable ones.
 

ycbm

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Thanks for the clarification OP, hope you manage to sort things out :)

ycbm, whats this about 'how their eyes work' business? Am bloody baffled by that statement! Please explain, thanks.

Their eyes work differently each side. Research has shown that they assess danger with one more than the other. So they are often calmer to handle with the left eye towards the handler, and when ridden with the left eye to the inside. On a spooky horse it's often a good idea to ride it on the left rein first, especially in a strange environment.

Every horse I've has has been easier to teach to lunge to the left than the right.

Didn't we all used to assume that some horses were more difficult to handle on the right because we are mostly right handed and handle them from the left? It's not the full answer :)


http://www.horsesciencenews.com/horse-behavior/depends-on-how-a-horse-sees-it.php
 
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ycbm

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Lammy, that's interesting that it's at the same point on any circle. I think that has to be a balance issue.
 

Goldenstar

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If it's always happening on the open part of the circle then I think you are seeing the natural crookedness of the horse .
Most horse wish to move leading with the left foreleg with the right hinleg slightly out they therefore tend to fall out on the right shoulder .
Try this .
When you get to the danger area of the circle walk get yourself nearer to the horse into to a bit of a long reining position this held to keep the horses head and neck straight once past trot on .
The walls act as a barrier to hold the outside holder in line once the walls have gone out goes the shoulder .
 

tallyho!

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What are you using to lunge? It will help if you can use a simple cavesson on youngsters so that you can ask them to bend correctly - this will help enormously if the are unbalanced and fall in, if they are looking into the circle then it is impossible for them to fall in as the bend at the top of the neck will naturally align the spine to the outside - this is why correct bend is so important when lunging and riding.

I'm rubbish at explaining things but if you want anything in-depth, this book called "straightening the crooked horse" by Karl Schoneich (sp?) was incredibly helpful. Philippe Karl also explains the same thing in his book and videos.
 

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Their eyes work differently each side. Research has shown that they assess danger with one more than the other. So they are often calmer to handle with the left eye towards the handler, and when ridden with the left eye to the inside. On a spooky horse it's often a good idea to ride it on the left rein first, especially in a strange environment.

Every horse I've has has been easier to teach to lunge to the left than the right.

Didn't we all used to assume that some horses were more difficult to handle on the right because we are mostly right handed and handle them from the left? It's not the full answer :)


http://www.horsesciencenews.com/horse-behavior/depends-on-how-a-horse-sees-it.php

Try doing things in reverse with totally unhandled adult equines - leading & starting everything on the off side -- I have a number of times.
Only difference is that they are more settled on the RIGHT rein, rather than the left on initial working.

Bunkum to the sight, IMHO its down to handling & one-sidedness, however much the handler does work on both sides, as most trainers and grooms will do all the approaches & handling on the near side much of the time.
 

PapaFrita

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Try doing things in reverse with totally unhandled adult equines - leading & starting everything on the off side -- I have a number of times.
Only difference is that they are more settled on the RIGHT rein, rather than the left on initial working.

Bunkum to the sight, IMHO its down to handling & one-sidedness, however much the handler does work on both sides, as most trainers and grooms will do all the approaches & handling on the near side much of the time.

This! :)
 

AdorableAlice

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I am no expert, but my thoughts would be get a not yet 4 year old off the lunge and get him hacking out with a rock steady companion, letting him see lots of strange sights and covering a varied terrain. That is what will teach him to think forwards, gain balance and strength without putting him under pressure.

I have a huge nearly 6 year old that could not canter on the lunge and would certainly have an opinion if I asked him to.
 

ycbm

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Bunkum to the sight, IMHO its down to handling & one-sidedness, however much the handler does work on both sides, as most trainers and grooms will do all the approaches & handling on the near side much of the time.

So how does that explain young horses generally being more spooky on the right rein when ridden then? Or horses like mine who are always lunged equally, if they are lunged at all, yet time and again prefer to go left than right. Or that lose schooling they generally prefer to go left than right. Or the well regarded trainers who tell their trainees to go left rein first in a spooky arena? One did this at a demo I was at last year, and the horse calmed down immediately.

This horse, given the new info we have, is fairly clearly a balance issue. Other horses, I will remain open minded about.
 

Clodagh

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I am no expert, but my thoughts would be get a not yet 4 year old off the lunge and get him hacking out with a rock steady companion, letting him see lots of strange sights and covering a varied terrain. That is what will teach him to think forwards, gain balance and strength without putting him under pressure.

I have a huge nearly 6 year old that could not canter on the lunge and would certainly have an opinion if I asked him to.

I have never cantered a young horse in a small circle, ridden or lunged, sounds like asking for trouble. So I agree with AA.
 

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That's an interesting theory YCBM, not sure I'd go along with it though, and not all horses spook more on one rein than another. I have also deliberately handled horses from both sides since foals & hey presto! Some very even young horses with either no dominant side or very much less noticeable crookedness, so I am a proponent of the handling producing some one-sidedness. Another theory is foetal positioning, since most foals have their necks bent in one direction in the womb. But I do have a "spooky corner" in the arena, caused by two things: tree shadow & an aggressive goose.

On the canter problem, it's a rare 3 - 4 year old that can canter a balanced complete circle - they do exist, but most are gangly and worried. Some big ones can't do it at all, for years....However, the answer is to keep asking, but make it easy for them - only ask going into a corner, only ask for half a circle, trot before the "open" side, etc., etc. But keep doing it, remembering that the balance comes in the transitions into and out of the pace, so lots of them. And cantering on a circle is training the inside hind leg, thus promoting bend and balance. Cantering on the straight and for a long time just asks the horse to go on the forehand, not a great thing when he's young and doesn't know how to get back off it.
 
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GermanyJo

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It appears they process from the left eye in the right side of the brain, the right eye on the left side, which I think is why you can have a horse suddenly more worried about something depending on which eye he is seeing it in...google this.....horsesciencenews.com..."depends on how a horse sees it"...I am not clever enough to copy the link on my phone 😂
 

ycbm

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It appears they process from the left eye in the right side of the brain, the right eye on the left side, which I think is why you can have a horse suddenly more worried about something depending on which eye he is seeing it in...google this.....horsesciencenews.com..."depends on how a horse sees it"...I am not clever enough to copy the link on my phone ��

Thank you GJ, as you point out, it has a physiological basis, it's not 'just a theory'.
 

Lammy

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Thanks for all replies/suggestions. Like I said he's not lunged often and now won't be for a while but he was the other day since he hadn't been ridden in a month and when on board I sensed he needed to get some energy out. I happened to notice his reluctance, both in trot and in canter at this certain point on the circle and didn't want it to be discomfort.

He's now been out hacking the last 2 days, just short hacks around the fields and back and had been previously a couple of times before he decided to grow another inch. Last night I was reminded of why I bother to put my body protector on when a group of young cows shot out the bushes and gave him the fright of his life, stayed on and at least now I know how he spooks - like a cartoon character. Straight up in the air, all feet off the ground at once and barge through nanny horse as if they're not there. In the past two days he's seen cyclists, a motorbike, a group of walkers, walkers with a pack of dogs, a lamb with its head stuck in the gate which wasn't scary until it freed itself and the bloody cows that stand still until you go past and then run up behind you! And he's happy to trot on the right in an open field. :)
 

paddi22

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There have been a few talks here this year with well respected trainers, and the general consensus from what i can see, is that most only lunge a young horse a handful of times to install voice commands, and then don't do it afterwards, they go straight to hacking. They presented growing evidence that lunging young horses does more harm than good most times, and is a lot harder on horses than owners seem to realise. One speaker stated that he was horrified how often people lunge young, growing horses. There was some really interesting discussion on it.
 

AdorableAlice

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There have been a few talks here this year with well respected trainers, and the general consensus from what i can see, is that most only lunge a young horse a handful of times to install voice commands, and then don't do it afterwards, they go straight to hacking. They presented growing evidence that lunging young horses does more harm than good most times, and is a lot harder on horses than owners seem to realise. One speaker stated that he was horrified how often people lunge young, growing horses. There was some really interesting discussion on it.

I agree and I also hold the view that long lining is going out of use for many young horses due to people not having a safe environment or the right help to undertake it. That results in the use of lunging to replace long lining to put the voice commands in but the lunge cannot put the steering in. In the past the lanes were fine to long line a young horse but not anymore and the vast majority of us wouldn't have access to endless fields or tracks to long line either, so the horse is forced into the arena to trot mindless circles, get bored and stress young joints. It is a no win situation for many I suppose.
 

paddi22

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yep aa, that was one of their points as well. They made a good point about the longlining not installing a 'bit forward motion' if that makes sense. That it gives a horse a backward bit feeling instead of a forward one. Eric Smiley was saying he prefers to get a horse bending around him in a stable at walk and encouraging the horse to push forward into a positive contact when bending instead of being pulled backwards (when longlinging) or sideward (when lunging). He describved it much better than that, but it really made me rethink how we ask young horses to work into a contact.

He also explained how he just pops up on the back of young horses and gets them pottering round under no pressure.So he will just walk them around barns and up and down fields asking for nothing but them going forward happily. It also gets them working on more solid surfaces gradually. I found that really insightful and came out wondering
• are a lot of leg, hock problems caused by young horses only being worked mainly on surfaces instead of varied terrain
• are a lot of napping, tension issues being caused by horses being 'educated' on too many things before the basic forwardness is installed.

It really made me reconsider how to train young horses. I started following their methods as an experiment and so far it does seem to have instilled better basics in my baby horses. Lunged twice for voice commands only, no longlining, did the contact training in the stables, and then just hacked. I had to put up with months of 'what is x horses doing?' and me saying 'hacking' for months and getting a few side-eyes. But she started arena work last week, and she is a much more mature working attitude now (and shes naturally hot). she sorted out contact/rider issues on hacks, understands bends and balance from learning on hacks, no nappiness at all, naturally forward.

So while it has taken waaay longer, i think the next part of her education will speed up. I think their methods just give the horses a bit more time to process things naturall, instead of everything (bend, balance,contact) being focused at once in a school.

I compare her to my friends 4/5 year olds who are being hothoused for eventing and worked at a much more advanced level that she is (out eventing now etc) but my gut says she will naturally catch up next year and progress ahead of them because we don't have the nappy, tense bits that their horses have.
 

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They made a good point about the longlining not installing a 'bit forward motion' if that makes sense. That it gives a horse a backward bit feeling instead of a forward one. Eric Smiley was saying he prefers to get a horse bending around him in a stable at walk and encouraging the horse to push forward into a positive contact when bending instead of being pulled backwards (when longlinging) or sideward (when lunging). He describved it much better than that, but it really made me rethink how we ask young horses to work into a contact.

He also explained how he just pops up on the back of young horses and gets them pottering round under no pressure.So he will just walk them around barns and up and down fields asking for nothing but them going forward happily. It also gets them working on more solid surfaces gradually. I found that really insightful and came out wondering
• are a lot of leg, hock problems caused by young horses only being worked mainly on surfaces instead of varied terrain
• are a lot of napping, tension issues being caused by horses being 'educated' on too many things before the basic forwardness is installed.

That's interesting Paddi, as I'm not a fan of longlining young horses either (for the same reasons, although I do work the older lads in long reins when they get to the fancy stuff like piaffe and Spanish walk). I also hop up as soon as I can and do most of the steering teaching on board, and while we don't hack, we do wander around the farm and driveways rather than go round and round endlessly. Lunging has it's place, but it's not endlessly going round and round either, there are long sides and changes of rein to use too.
 

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That's interesting Paddi, as I'm not a fan of longlining young horses either (for the same reasons, although I do work the older lads in long reins when they get to the fancy stuff like piaffe and Spanish walk). I also hop up as soon as I can and do most of the steering teaching on board, and while we don't hack, we do wander around the farm and driveways rather than go round and round endlessly. Lunging has it's place, but it's not endlessly going round and round either, there are long sides and changes of rein to use too.

Me three - such a relief! I very rarely long rein youngsters before they're backed, and if I do it will be maybe a couple of sessions maximum. The guy who taught me to back horses never really did it either, nor really lunged.
People have often asked me why I don't longrein and to be honest I've never really had a very good answer for them, other than that I don't really find it that helpful for young horses. The aids that you teach a young horse longreining I don't find transfer that well to aids once they are first under saddle (it's far more transferable for older more established ridden horses). I find you're just as well to take a young horse out for a walk in hand and teaching them to move away from pressure while stood still in the stable, yard, school or whatever
 
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