what does a 'modern type' mean

[Minxie]

Hi. I'm very tentatively looking at stallions for my mare and many of the studs describe their stallions as a 'modern type'? I've been out of the loop for a very long time and wasn't sure what this meant.

I'm really only looking to breed a foal a decent heritage with as good a temperament (sp) as possible and not really interested in something which is 'fashionable'.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

[Rollin]

Sorry no advice.. just a tongue in cheek reply. ( I would do those smilies but haven't worked it out since they changed the board SMILE)

I like cobs, hunters, CB's ID's and middle weight hunters. For me 'modern' means light of bone, pretty head, possibly a bit of a handful, bred for one discipline and will probably give you lots of vet bills.

Unlike my first horse now 32, who is a super sensible driving horse and a safe hack, when he was 25 I found by accident he loved to jump (2 clear rounds at a local show), now teaching a colt manners and he has NEVER given me a vet bill in 15 years. He is Bay but my Black Beauty.

I am sure you will get more replies SMILE

 

[scotia2k7]

..."modern type" is an expression which has varying "meaning" depending which stud book or breed you look at (not helpful I know) - for many it simply means a more rectangular frame (body shape) & more "sporting" type than the breed may have previously shown - increased leaning to either dressage/jumping/eventing etc.

Generally any "modernisation" of "type" is down to the stallions used to influence the breed. Try a google for current top sport horse stallions, "modern types" as opposed to breed's who's standards have remained constant over the past 30yrs.

My Trakehner mare (20yrs on Valentines day) is a more traditional stamp of the breed, which dates to the stallions/mares/trends of 1991 - today the breed is lighter in frame - so I suppose thats modernisation

scotia

 

[Minxie]

Thank you for your replies.

Rollin I hear what your saying. My mare is a very chunky cob resembling a landrover defender She's as steady as a rock

Scotia - that makes sense for sure. I'll do as your suggest and spend some time googling the different types and see if i can identify the differences.

Thanks again

 

[Alexart]

Depends on the breed as others have said - in some breeds it can be an improved lighter type, but often it just means a flashy show horse with little bone, the sort that used to never be bred from.
For example with friesians here is a modern type stallion - light of bone, long weak back and weak backend, they often have bad sickle hocks, yet it has a flashy trot so does well in the show ring which is now all that matters so is what is being bred:

Compare this for example to my old fashioned baroque style friesian:

It's the same with quite alot of other breeds - I guess as needs change along with what people think is beautiful, it seems the more extreme the better just to stand out - look at arabs!

 

[classicalfan]

You're spot on - it is more to do with fashion. For example, many dressage horses are now lighter and finer than they were 15 years ago. They appeal more to lady riders and due to the thoroughbred influence have a more eye-catching extended trot.

Also agree whole-heartedly with Alexart. The Friesian is a good example of how fashion trends have influenced the breed. Most 'modern' types now look as if they are standing up hill - the hind legs are camped out behind and the forelegs are too far behind the vertical. They are vets bills waiting to happen!

 

[Alexart]

Friesians are already vet bills with hooves!!

 

[stolensilver]

Modern type to me means lightweight, leggy and with a very pretty head. Some of them are fantastic stallions. Some make me wonder if they are going to break.

At the SSGB Landpirol was my idea of an old fashioned stallion. Big, strong, powerful, incredible strength through his loin, an international record in GP showjumping as well as advanced dressage. Loved him!

On the other side of the coin Balloon was a poster boy for modern. Lightweight, leggy, very, very pretty, quite tubular through the loin and dressage quality paces. He is jumping at a high level for his age and looks as if he could equally easily turn his hand to dressage. Loved him too.

Personally I wouldn't want a horse any lighter or leggier than Balloon and I wouldn't use that stamp of stallion on a mare who was weak through her loin. But equally I don't think I have enough core strength to collect a horse the stamp that Landpirol is so would want to put him to a lighter, smaller mare.

It really is all down to personal preference and there is nothing quite like seeing a stallion in the flesh to help you decide whether he will suit your mare or not.

 

[Alexart]

Sorry the link has died on the first pic -

 

[tristar]

it means they pinched our thoroughbreds, mixed them them up with their carthorses...............and now sell them back to us at exorbitant prices marketed
as wb where in actual fact i think they should be called part tbs.

 

[Doncella]

it means they pinched our thoroughbreds, mixed them them up with their carthorses...............and now sell them back to us at exorbitant prices marketed
as wb where in actual fact i think they should be called part tbs.

My sentiments entirely.

 

[Avonbrook]

It's the same with quite alot of other breeds - I guess as needs change along with what people think is beautiful, it seems the more extreme the better just to stand out - look at arabs!

I agree with your sentiments on what has been / is being done in the name of "extreme" with arabs, as with friesians. However, as with friesians, the "old fashioned" type are still around and doing very nicely thankyou - if not necessarily in the halter ring!

 

[Minxie]

Thank you all for your replies. I'd had a scout around google after reading the posts today and started to see what you are basically saying in that they are lighter and flashier.

Alexart - I don't need to your photo to work I've actually looked at Wessel now for a number of years. Not that I know anything about Friesans but I'd say he's in a league of his own he really is. I'd contacted you before about my mare (we missed last years season and I'm now thinking about this coming year although she is on loan to my friend who is doing very well and want to make sure they are happy with her coming out of competition). It had genuinely always been my intention to use Wessel - if you'd allowed. The only reason I've been looking around is simply that I'm actually breeding to produce a foal for my god daughter to progress on but we're not quite sure where she is going yet. She does remarkably well at dressage but prefers jumping. Kids eh!.

Also i keep being pressured for a coloured stallion. In fairness my friend (god daughters mum who has Storm on loan) has always wanted a coloured horse having had one as a kid and has been extremely unlucky in the past in trying to breed one. But again it really depends on what they want to do with the foal in the coming years. I am more interested in temperament and health than anything else.

Don't suppose you've got a nice coloured friesan x stallion with Wessel as his dad lurking around do you

I had a look at Balloon - and he's defo too light so I'm at a loss but at least I now know to stay away from the 'modern types'

Thank you all again.

 

[Rollin]

it means they pinched our thoroughbreds, mixed them them up with their carthorses...............and now sell them back to us at exorbitant prices marketed
as wb where in actual fact i think they should be called part tbs.

Not just TB's. Two of the top SJ at Olympia last year had a mare called Kleopatra in their pedigree, her parents and grandparents were Cleveland Bays and Yorkshire coach Horses. In 1855 the Young Duke of Cleveland was a foundation stallion for the Oldenburg. Three CB and one YCH stallion were used to improve the Holstein.

One much admired stallion at SSGB also features Kleo in his pedigree.

 

[stolensilver]

Have you looked at Sempers Spirit? He's a homozygous coloured stallion and has sired some very nice youngstock.

http://www.sporting-horse.co.uk/SempersSpirit.htm

 

[Anne_GTI]

Modern type most of the times means longer and thinner legs and a lighter frame. With it comes a differtent movement. Longer strides and more elasticity.

 

[Enfys]

Good Grief! Side by side that is a travesty.

I know which one I'd want in harness or under saddle

 

[Enfys]

I agree with your sentiments on what has been / is being done in the name of "extreme" with arabs, as with friesians. However, as with friesians, the "old fashioned" type are still around and doing very nicely thankyou - if not necessarily in the halter ring!

Showing, it would seem, has much to answer for.
You mention the halter ring, look at Quarter Horses/Paints as another example, the extreme halter horses look like beef cattle to me (picked from a random search)

Yet I love the compact 'old fashioned' working type.

 

[tristar]

as for longer legs, my god have'nt horses got enough potential problems without breeding them with long legs, which to me is a serious fault, a horse should have legs in proportion to the rest of its confo. with adequate bone to support the whole frame and shortish cannons, longish forearms, pasterns at a reasonable angle and feet and joints that match the whole structure, i think the emphasis should be on improving inadequate backends cause that's where the real engine is, not making the legs longer, and learning to ride and train sympathetically to develop the natural movement of the horse.

i too don't like the modern extreme arab heads, grotesque is a word that springs to mind.

 

[Minxie]

Good Grief! Side by side that is a travesty.

I know which one I'd want in harness or under saddle

See - there we go. I keep looking at other stallions and then someone recklessly adds a picture of the stunning Wessel and I'm straight back to square one

Stolensilver - I'd looked at Sempers Spirit and a few other (Centryfor, Amour G, Centurian, Co-Pilot, Airborne, Goshka Ringo etc). my problem is I'm new to this. My mare has had a foal but he was a big surprise as she was pregnant when we got her and I didn't know I still have the foal

I really like Wessel but have to consider my friends opinions as she is the one who has put all the time and work into my mare (Storm is on loan). My god daughter is desperate for a Friesan X but we just need to weight up options etc especially as this foal will never be sold.

I'm very confused.

 

[AnnaL]

I've only really looked at the friesian modern vs baroque argument but am noticing more and more it's happening with a lot of breeds and it's a crying shame. Modern breeding seems to not only be changing the conformation and movement, but the temperament of breeds too.

Whatever breed you go for, I suggest something sane, sensible and well put together.

However- I say this as the owner of a Wessel baby

 

[Ladylina83]

it means they pinched our thoroughbreds, mixed them them up with their carthorses...............and now sell them back to us at exorbitant prices marketed
as wb where in actual fact i think they should be called part tbs.

lol

 

[Tiny Fluffy Coblet]

To me modern type means they took a tough, wiry, beautiful, versatile breed and turned it into a flat backed, weak hind end-ed, straight legged, light of bone, swan necked, creepy bambi cartoon faced travesty. However I might be slightly prejudiced against 'modern' halter type arabs.

 

[UnaB]

With the friesian, breeders have adapted their aims to make a better all round riding horse as driving horses are not so popular these days. The modern or sports type may look a bit lighter but they are certainly not weak or long backed - they are supposed to be a fit, useful horse and therefore they are bred for that purpose. Its easy enough to find bad pictures of any type of horse, i've put some pictures below of modern type friesians, they look ok to me!!! I love the look of the baroque friesian, but in reality as a riding horse, they are not going to compare to the smoother ride of the modern type who's build is more practical for dressage and jumping. There are many modern type friesians competing in higher level dressage with great success We all like different things, theres no need to criticise what you dont like

 

[ischa]

I have to agree with you una B
, modern types have been bred more sporty but are defently not
weak , it's funny very few breeders or owners of banoque types are slating the modern types !!!!
If the banoque types are so versatile and non excistant from genetic defects why try and change them ??
Again people have different taste and compertion purposes
So please don't slag off the modern types just because u have different tastes

 

[AnnaL]

I love the look of the baroque friesian, but in reality as a riding horse, they are not going to compare to the smoother ride of the modern type who's build is more practical for dressage and jumping.

I have no intention to cause argument, and I don't like to wander off topic

But as the owner of a baroque lad, I resent this comment and feel the need to defend it. You've only got to look at a baroque horse, whatever breed, to see they've got the physical makings to doing anything, including movements that need a lot of strength behind ie piaffe. And no-one will convince me that they can't jump.

Referring particularly to friesians, you say it's opinion, but even the FPS actually admits to some of its approved breeding stallions having conformational weaknesses- particularly "weak backs" and sickle hocks- and that's taken directly from the mark sheet of a champion modern stallion. Not opinion, but fact. I'm not questioning their talent e.g. riding, driving, but simply saying that these conformational faults are being bred in, and it can't be good for the breed in the long term, which is why i personally don't like them.

 

[UnaB]

I have no intention to cause argument, and I don't like to wander off topic

But as the owner of a baroque lad, I resent this comment and feel the need to defend it. You've only got to look at a baroque horse, whatever breed, to see they've got the physical makings to doing anything, including movements that need a lot of strength behind ie piaffe. And no-one will convince me that they can't jump.

Referring particularly to friesians, you say it's opinion, but even the FPS actually admits to some of its approved breeding stallions having conformational weaknesses- particularly "weak backs" and sickle hocks- and that's taken directly from the mark sheet of a champion modern stallion. Not opinion, but fact. I'm not questioning their talent e.g. riding, driving, but simply saying that these conformational faults are being bred in, and it can't be good for the breed in the long term, which is why i personally don't like them.

Where did I say the baroque type cant jump? I never said any such thing, but their build certainly isnt designed for jumping. This is why you see TBs and WBs competing at the highest levels of SJ and Eventing and not the baroque horses. My own mare is definately more towards the baroque build (she is a cross of the baroque and modern type but turning out very chunky) so I obviously I am not going to slate them as I think she is wonderful and a beautiful mare, she also has a very good jump. I hope to do some BSJA with her as I have mentioned on this forum before. But I wouldnt have bought her if I was aiming for top level competing in SJ or Eventing, i'd have bought a WB. Thats just facts im afraid Friesians are built very uphill, particularly the baroque type, and that does restrict their ability in higher level competition which is why the FPS is aiming for a more balanced, sports type horse. Im not saying a baroque friesian cant ever win at a top level, but it would be much, much harder for it than a WB for example.

And you cant judge an entire "type" by a handful of stallions that have had conformation problems. If that were the case then it would be easy enough to slate ALL baroque friesians as there are some truely hideous ones out there. I have never read anywhere stating the FPS are breeding for weak backs or sickle hocks

I just find it sad that those who like the baroque type cant just accept that whilst they dont want or like the modern type themselves, it doesnt mean they should run them down. The owners of modern friesians dont come on the internet criticising all the baroque friesians do they Its seems like some people with the baroques think their horses are better than other peoples, which is certainly not the case, it just means they are designed for different things

 

[AnnaL]

If you read back, I actually haven't slated the modern types at all. A lot of modern types are very good at what they do, and some are very nice examples. No, they aren't my cup of tea, but neither are a lot of other breeds/types!

I know they're never going to compare to WBs etc- but you made a direct comparison between moderns and baroques under saddle and stated that baroque horses "will never compare", which is what i took offence to.

Putting ability and talent aside though, my main point, and this applies to all breeds actually, and is what i was referring to when i made my original post, is that what is seen, and has always been seen as "bad" conformation seems to be acceptable in these modern types- friesian or otherwise.

The stallion i was referring to is a previous world champion- was suggesting that if this is what is deemed the best, then these traits are going to get bred in. I'm not saying that all modern types are conformationally rubbish- i was simply pointing out that if a world champ stallion has those traits and it's deemed acceptable for SUCH a high level of achievement, with thousands of mares/year are bred to him, it's encouraging those faults, which in the long term could cause problems in the horse.

Preferences and personal agendas aside- do you think it's acceptable for a WORLD CHAMPION (ie the absolute very best horse of the breed) to carry those faults?

Just an extra note to say as well- i know not all baroques are nice- i've seen some horrible ones!! Same goes for all breeds though, there's nice examples and not so nice examples.

 

[friesian80]

I am confused to how ppl get a 'modern' look? Take the friesian, they were all baroque at one point so how do they get a finer type without introducing a different breed of horse?
I know to get a minature shetland they breed from the smallest of standard shetlands, this often is the runt and the runt often has other faults and can have awful confirmation, however as its small it is used to produce offspring. Ive seem some shocking minature Shetland stallions, its like it doesnt matter about anything but height if its teeny tiny its used to breed.
So how did we get the modern type friesian?

 

[AnnaL]

I am confused to how ppl get a 'modern' look? Take the friesian, they were all baroque at one point so how do they get a finer type without introducing a different breed of horse?
I know to get a minature shetland they breed from the smallest of standard shetlands, this often is the runt and the runt often has other faults and can have awful confirmation, however as its small it is used to produce offspring. Ive seem some shocking minature Shetland stallions, its like it doesnt matter about anything but height if its teeny tiny its used to breed.
So how did we get the modern type friesian?

I know in the past other breeds have been used to introduce "new blood"- i suspect (but don't know!) the leaner more modern friesians are derived from those crosses several generations back- think this is why certain lines of friesians are known to be "hot" too.