What does the term "schoolmaster" mean to you...

[wench]

Either:

1) Any moron can get on and you will happily go round a BE intro/PN/N course quite easily? (Or same with BS, but dont know class names)

or

2) If you ride it right, it does it, if you dont it wont?

 

[ecrozier]

It depends what level you are talking about! I'd say it can mean both. And also how much of a moron! We ave a horse on our yard who I would say iunder saddle is the best jump schoolmaster I have ever met. Point him at a fence and he will jump it, from a rhythm. He mainly just needs you to tell him which fence is next! However if you mess with him, or at 1m+ you don't have your leg at least somewhere near his side, he won't jump as well. He'll still jump 99% of the time tho!
TBH I don't know if a horse exists that could take a seriously novice rider round PN+ safely...I wouldn't like to attempt finding out!
Personally if I were looking for a schoolmaster I'd want something that did need my involvement in some way otherwise I don't see that I would learn much....but equally I would want a level of forgiving from it if I messed up occasionally....ie IMO a decent jump schoolmaster shouldn't need me to be spot on every stride or slam the brakes on, for example.
I'd also want so proven results - horse I mention above has 8 seasons BE under his belt up to N.....over 30 events, one stop XC and that was at intro! Less than 6 poles down SJ in all that time and never more than 4 SJ faults.....

 

[kerilli]

i'd say it can be either... that's the trouble!
to improve confidence, the first type. to improve riding, the second type, perhaps!
i think a 'push-button ride' will take anyone around, as long as they have a vague idea of how to ride.. not even be particularly accurate about where or when to push the buttons. (i produced a mare that i would have trusted to take an utter numpty around any Novice in the country, as long as they rode well enough not to sock her in the teeth and put her off! she never pulled, she'd have gone xc in a headcollar, all you had to do was steer, put your legs on, and want to get to the other side. she'd go off a deep, normal or long shot, didn't care, didn't hold it against you. never rushed, never silly. at Int you need a bit more a clue obv because the fences are bigger so the margin for error shrinks, but she'd have taken anyone with half an idea round any Int too imho. a FBHS told me that she'd be great for juniors but then when he realised she was totally switched off even in start box at a 3 day, he said no, a lot of juniors need a horse to take them... and she wouldn't. so, diff types of attitude of schoolmaster too...)
i've never sat on a true push-button schoolmaster, but i've sat on some very good horses that would do the right thing if you asked the right way (one was an hysterical ex-GP horse from a top European yard, another had been round Burghley), and i think you learn more from them than from any other type of horse... as long as you have the sense of humour to cope with the hiccups when your idea of where the buttons are doesn't quite match theirs!

 

[Scoutie]

To me a school master is a horse that can teach you. I used to ride a dressage school master, if I did not use exactly the correct aid he would not perform the movement, when I did use the correct aid he was a dream. He taught me a lot which I could then apply to other horses. As a result I think it more than horse that can carry you around a course, there a lots of horses that could do this but because they are honest/willing not because they have taught you something.

 

[HammieHamlet]

I take regular lessons on a SJ schoolmaster - his job is mainly to improve my riding over the bigger fences (i.e 1.15/1.20m +) rather than be there to install confidence. He's an ex speed derby horse and has an amazing jump on him.

However, if you don't ride him together and fire him at a fence then he will stop... my instructor always shouts at me "don't believe him" if he is pulling me and getting long and flat in to a fence... because if he then meets it on a bad stride he will slam on the brakes and say "no". So he is an ideal teacher for me, to make sure the canter is 100% perfect and 'together' and to make sure that I keep him listening to me, rather than let him make the decisions.

When it all comes together he is a lovely horse to ride, and I wouldn't say that he helps me out at all - he just makes sure I get it right all the time and almost tests me for mistakes!

 

[xspiralx]

Either:

1) Any moron can get on and you will happily go round a BE intro/PN/N course quite easily? (Or same with BS, but dont know class names)

or

2) If you ride it right, it does it, if you dont it wont?

As others have said, kind of both, depending on what you want and need!

Generally though I think it would be a combination of the two - ie. a horse that can give you confidence at a higher level and is forgiving if you make a mistake but at the same time doesn't tolerate someone just sitting there like a lemon!

 

[nikkimariet]

Either!!!

Bruce = schoolmaster. He knows his stuff....but because he knows his stuff....if 'anyone' got on him....he would royally take the mickey.

Agree that a schoolmaster is a horse that should be capable of teaching you and giving you confidence.

 

[Ranyhyn]

2)

For me, in my terms, it's a horse that is kind enough to put up with a rider while they learn - but once they ask the right question - it produces the right answer. Something that someone can learn on.

 

[wench]

So.... would you describe Trigger as a school master???

He will quite happily jump 1m, if you get it right. Get the canter wrong, the wrong line etc he wont. (Hes more than capable of jumping higher than this, but hasnt done in a while. He is off to a pro soon, so should soon be back in the swing of going round courses of that height).

Dressage - again will quite happily slop round if you let him, work him properly and he goes well. Hes not particulary flashy, doesnt do flying changes, but will shorten and lengthen, and leg yield, shoulder in etc.

Opinions?

 

[Ranyhyn]

What does he do when he "wont". From my POV (and I am a novice) if a horse ducks out/dumps its rider then I wouldn't call that a schoolmaster, from my modest POV.

 

[Santa_Claus]

schoolmaster means a well schooled horse who responds to the correct aids but not to incorrect ones so teaching a rider what buttons to press. A schoolmaster is not necessarily a saint and often isn't but when told correctly what to do will do so prety much every time without question.

So to me your '2'

to me your 1 could be a schoolmaster if that 'person' learnt what buttons to press, if instead the horse is taking them round even when pressing the wrong buttons it is because they are a mind reading saint!

 

[xspiralx]

So.... would you describe Trigger as a school master???

He will quite happily jump 1m, if you get it right. Get the canter wrong, the wrong line etc he wont. (Hes more than capable of jumping higher than this, but hasnt done in a while. He is off to a pro soon, so should soon be back in the swing of going round courses of that height).

Dressage - again will quite happily slop round if you let him, work him properly and he goes well. Hes not particulary flashy, doesnt do flying changes, but will shorten and lengthen, and leg yield, shoulder in etc.

Opinions?

To me he would be a nice allrounder rather than a schoolmaster, as for me a schoolmaster is really a more advanced horse that knows its job inside out that can teach someone the ropes at a higher level.

The only other definition in my mind would be a horse that is pretty much foolproof and will cart anybody around at a lower level no matter what they're doing on board.

 

[Kat]

A true schoolmaster is both and can read his rider and judge the right mix required!

The best example I can think of was a first pony bought for some siblings to share. When first purchased he was a saint and took care of the kids, but with time as they improved he became less tolerant and made them work for their results. It clearly wasn't a case of him becoming jaded or sour as he behaved differently with each child, being much less tolerant with the most able and very kind to the nervous child. Worth his weight in gold!

I also know a riding school horse who can amble round with a total beginner and look after them but is capable of really excellent lateral work with an experienced rider who is also entirely capable of bucking or taking off if he thinks an experienced rider isn't doing their job. He is better than any instructor at assessing riders! Another true schoolmaster.

 

[Kat]

Duplicate post!

 

[siennamum]

Sienna is a schoolmaster. She is both a & b.

She will take a numpty round an Intro & will go in a sweet confidence building outline regardless of what the rider is doing. She will never buck, rear or nap and is angelic in almost every way. BUT if you ride her properly then she will get placed in the Intro and get 70% in the dressage.

 

[Lolo]

I think at lower levels for horses (up to Novice) both- they need to be able to guess what the rider wants from inaccurate aids/ jump off dodgy lines and strides. Ponies are a bit different IMO.

Once you get to Novice+, a schoolmaster is a horse who knows what they're doing and will allow you to get it a bit wrong, but not badly. Best eventing schoolmaster example I can think of on here is worMy's Jack- he'not an easy ride, but he does know his stuff ans doesn't look like an easy ride, but equally does know what he's being asked and tries.

 

[shark1]

I think a bit differently to the majority! I think schoolmaster means any idiot (within reason!) Can get on the horse and it will do the job the seller / owner claims it will.
If you say you have to ride it right, then thats not really a schoolmaster IMO as the whole point of a schoolmaster is youlearn from your bad decisions as they overide your opinion when you make an error and correct it.

So if someone said to me, this is a 1.10 schoolmaster, I would expect it to jump round 1.10 with a novice rider, not only jump round if its ridden well.

 

[Ranyhyn]

How can you learn if it does what you ask - even if you ask wrong - anyway? Genuine question!

 

[swellhillcottage]

Good Thread!

Before I got the big fella I always thought a school master was a saint that would just do as asked how ever the question was asked whether jumping or flat work - Then I got the Big fella loaned to me he is an older advanced horse that has been there and done it
( He wasnt loaned as a schoolmaster but with his experience and temperament it was hopefully an option )- He has taught me so much in the 18 mths I have had him - initially he said no a lot when we were jumping and its taken me a fair while to figure it out but since I have now realised I have " Got to get the Canter" and " stop telling him when to take off" he is an absolute star and is so much more forgiving then he was - he is still not a saint but definately worth his weight in Gold for anyone to gain confidence on - I dont really compete him except a bit of Dressage and local RC jumping classes but use him to learn on and Hopefully apply what I learn to my little fella! I have a lesson on him tomorrow and I am really looking forward to it as havent had one since November as he,s been on his hols
Mind you I did do a fun ride on him on Sunday and he was a total legend giving leads to a friend on a baby .......until we were on the home stretch and he definately stopped behaving like a Veteran schoolmaster and more like a 4 yr old TB Hothead and that was after 8 miles of hacking!! Crazy old fool who is stiff full of beans !

S x

 

[ecrozier]

I guess what it boils down to is that there is no hard and fast definition! Altho I do think some people describe anything over the age of 12 as a schoolmaster when they definately are not all! Just like anything under 10 'has potential'!!
I think it depends what market you are pitching at. Wil he happily jump round 2'6/2'9 with a relative novice? If so he is a RC schoolmaster. I think if he's a little more sensitive and needs better riding then maybe not.... Perhaps he could be sold as an eventing schoolmaster but I think at lower levels (90/100) there is more of a market for people wanting something that is unlikely to stop, so they can gain experience of jumping bigger tracks.... Pretty much like siennamum describes sienna, will go round anyway and if ridden well will place.....
Above PN... Then you are more likely to find people wanting to actually improve their riding I think by riding a schoolmaster. Bit generic but that's the way I would split it - up to 1m or so and probably novice/elem dressage people would want a schoolmaster to be reasonably forgiving.... Above that, more accurate riding probably but equally they might then want to feel like they are pretty competitive at that level!

 

[dafthoss]

I think a bit of both. To me a true school master starts off as the first type giving the rider the confidence to attempt more whilst the horse will take the responsibility for both of their saftey and the rider tells the horse where the next fence is. Then when the rider is confident and a bit more capable the horse the horse becomes more specific and will do less of the work them selves making the rider make more decisions. Just my opinion tho and I think this type are very hard to come by but I would love one like this to go eventing on.

 

[monkeybum13]

Sienna is a schoolmaster. She is both a & b.

She will take a numpty round an Intro & will go in a sweet confidence building outline regardless of what the rider is doing. She will never buck, rear or nap and is angelic in almost every way. BUT if you ride her properly then she will get placed in the Intro and get 70% in the dressage.

Would you like to swap for a big bay thing?

 

[charlimouse]

I guess what it boils down to is that there is no hard and fast definition! Altho I do think some people describe anything over the age of 12 as a schoolmaster when they definately are not all! Just like anything under 10 'has potential'!!
I think it depends what market you are pitching at. Wil he happily jump round 2'6/2'9 with a relative novice? If so he is a RC schoolmaster. I think if he's a little more sensitive and needs better riding then maybe not.... Perhaps he could be sold as an eventing schoolmaster but I think at lower levels (90/100) there is more of a market for people wanting something that is unlikely to stop, so they can gain experience of jumping bigger tracks.... Pretty much like siennamum describes sienna, will go round anyway and if ridden well will place.....
Above PN... Then you are more likely to find people wanting to actually improve their riding I think by riding a schoolmaster. Bit generic but that's the way I would split it - up to 1m or so and probably novice/elem dressage people would want a schoolmaster to be reasonably forgiving.... Above that, more accurate riding probably but equally they might then want to feel like they are pretty competitive at that level!

Agree with this! I think it depends on the level of the rider TBH. If you imagine a rider just starting out at BE90 (I use eventing as it is the discipline I know best!), the likelyhood is they want a horse which is essentially turn and point to gain confidence. Once the rider wants to move up to Novice the horse will need to be on much better strides, and the rider will have to ride far more accurately. At this point they will want a horse that they can ride (and ride correctly) to get the results.

For example I have a mare who will go round BE90 and 100 all day long, with wins and placings (in fact she is off to Badminton!). She will happily jump with more novice rider and would be perfect for somebody wanting to learn the ropes, so long as you point her in the vague direction of the fence she will jump it from anywhere! She is not a world beter, she is never going to go 4*, but she would be a fantastic 'school mistress' for somebody wanting something safe to start out on.

I also have Intermediate horse, who I bought 3 years ago to bring me on. He is far from straight forwards, and it has taken me a long time to learn how to ride him. If you don't ask him correctly he won't do it. But if you get it right he would jump the moon for you. So he is a fab 'school master' for me as I need to learn how to ride correctly, not how to scramble round!

 

[siennamum]

Would you like to swap for a big bay thing?

Well for some reason I got a big grey thing to replace her. Now I have to turn him into a schoolmaster so Will can progress onto him. (although at this rate that'll be in about 2020).

 

[dieseldog]

How can you learn if it does what you ask - even if you ask wrong - anyway? Genuine question!

Because 90% of being successful is how confident you are. If you ride a horse that doesn't stop when you get on one that might it generally doesn't as you are so positive.

If you ride a stopper you can then make the most genuine horse get it wrong.