What is "classical dressage"?

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mushroom

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Dressage to me is about encouraging the horse to work correctly through the back with impulsion, suppleness, balance and harmony.

What makes classical dressage different to just plain dressage?

This stems from overhearing an instructor telling her pupil that what she teaches is "classical dressage".
 
mushroom said:
Dressage to me is about encouraging the horse to work correctly through the back with impulsion, suppleness, balance and harmony.

What makes classical dressage different to just plain dressage?

This stems from overhearing an instructor telling her pupil that what she teaches is "classical dressage".
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Classic dressage refers to this: the scales of training, and you will see the german terms used as well as the english translation below
http://www.just-soequestrianevents.dacel.co.uk/resources/Scales+of+training.pdf

What you describe, are the basics, but may be relevant relevant to a horse which is only recently backed and going nicely.
Dressage geeks read this
http://www.classicaldressage.co.uk/Training_Scales/training_scales.html
 
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I'm not sure there really is a recognised universal definition :) for the most part the aims are the same but the methods can differ.

To me the basics are that classical trainers see dressage as an art form, look at the horse and rider from a more bio mechanics angle, do not promote or try to use over bending or head behind the vertical even in training, certainly no rollkur or force in the training. Any horse can do classical dressage, the natural paces can be enhanced and are not judged so a horse with less than perfect conformation or paces can still achieve a high standard of training.

Competitive dressage works to a slightly different system, the rider is aiming to get the best scores possible, the best scores are available to the horses with the best paces, sometimes over bending is used in training, sometimes even scores well in tests.

I'm sure there's much more to it than that - plenty of books and DVDs out if you want to know more in depth info.
 
Wheels said:
Competitive dressage works to a slightly different system, the rider is aiming to get the best scores possible, the best scores are available to the horses with the best paces, sometimes over bending is used in training, sometimes even scores well in tests.
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So to probably over simplify, competitive dressage is the alternative to classical? Probably a lot due to working through the competitive ranks at a faster rate.

Mrs D: Interesting reading - thank you.
 
Wheels said:
Competitive dressage works to a slightly different system, the rider is aiming to get the best scores possible, the best scores are available to the horses with the best paces, sometimes over bending is used in training, sometimes even scores well in tests.
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But... for a horse to score well in competitive dressage, it should be moving and working correctly, which can't be achieved without correct training.
 
I didn't say one way was correct and one not?? I said they are both different methods working towards the same thing. You cannot tell me though that there are no overbent horses in competitive dressage even at the higher levels. Trainers purposefully use over bending - not saying that's right or wrong, horses for courses
 
mushroom said:
So to probably over simplify, competitive dressage is the alternative to classical? Probably a lot due to working through the competitive ranks at a faster rate.

Mrs D: Interesting reading - thank you.
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There are people competing who say they follow a classical approach, I don't think they can be separated out as such and as I said earlier I don't think there is a definition
 
Wheels said:
There are people competing who say they follow a classical approach, I don't think they can be separated out as such and as I said earlier I don't think there is a definition
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My reply did sound like I was categorising and that wasn't intentional - nothing is that black and white :-)
 
I have trained with both a 'classical' trainer (i.e. former head rider for the Spanish High School) and modern, competitive riders - generally they are all working towards the same thing and there is not a lot in it. However my 'classical' trainer (he does however advocate learning something from all styles of training and that there is no single right or wrong way) says the biggest difference he finds between the two styles is TIME. Competitive riders have their 4 and 5 year olds out as soon as possible, teaching them high level movements at a young age and want to progress quickly. Classical riders/trainers take things a little slower, its not about being competitive right from the get go and they are happier to accept a slower rate of progress unlike modern competitive riders/trainers who want to be winning with 70%+ from the moment they go to their first competition.

Perhaps you could argue side reins/draw reins, and all the other gadgets are a more modern way of doing things whereas the classical approach spends a lot of time doing the ground work with long-reining prior to backing to get their results. There are little subtle differences here and there between the two styles but ultimately both require the horse to be working over their backs into a soft, elastic contact in an uphill manner to perform the movements being asked.

How you get there is not so important in my opinion, providing the well-being of the horse is paramount at all times, you dont rush the horse and you allow them the freedom to be a horse - not wrapping them up in cotton wool cooped up indoors in 3 rugs so they wont ever get dirty and are competition ready whenever the rider feels like it (like some modern competitive riders I've worked for). But saying that the Spanish High School were just as guilty in trying to keep their horses super white, so you can pull out pro's and cons for each approach.

I like my trainers approach - you can learn something from every trainer who you have a lesson with, even if you learn that you dont like that particular method. You will never stop learning in dressage and you need at least 2 lifetimes before you will even be close to knowing it all, so train with whoever you want and dont be afraid to have more than one trainer if it suits you and your horse.
 
What I have learned [it was £140 for the lesson so I will never forget] is:
1] a good rider [I mean top World Class, International Rider] is always in the correct position, no matter what is happening, the horse and the rider are as one, man and machine.
2] The horse is listening to the rider.
 
Part of the problem is that classical dressage has no hard and fast definition. I know what I think it is, but that may not be what someone else thinks it is, whereas competition dressage is very easy to define - as what wins a dressage competition.

To me, classical dressage is the type of training used by the classical masters in the Baroque period, so the books written by Antoine de Pluvinel, Robichon de la Guerinniére, Grisone, et al would be the guideline. However very few people purporting to be "classical" trainers actually use those books or methods. The modern manifestation of classical seems to mean all softly-softly, spend an age in walk and don't pull on the reins or go forward much (and diss all the competition trainers). That is most definitely NOT what is outlined in the original texts which are much more concerned with preparing horses for either warfare or showing off in front of the King.
 
I think a lot of people are confused about this - not helped by some trainers labelling themselves as Classical in an attempt to carve out their own niche in the market!

To me it means not using force or gadgets, spending lots of time in-hand/doing the basics and it's generally more cerebral (based on the trainers I have used over the years - the Classical ones tend to leave me thinking more about my riding in general!).
 
I'm probably wrong but from watching Rosie, her 'classical' trainer taught her to ride the horse so he could develop his muscles to be able to move correctly according to the scales of training - which wasn't going to happen overnight. Training for competition (at least for eventing) is of course about the scales of training but is also about how to gain an extra point here and there and some tricks of the trade. She doesn't use gadgets though, doesn't believe in them and can't afford them ;)
 
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