What makes a horse "a handful"???

SatansLittleHelper

SatansLittleHelper

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So Jester goes tomorrow to start his rebacking/schooling etc and a couple of people have now commented on how the trainer is going to "have her hands full with that one" :(
My confidence is already low and I'm pretty sure I'm overhorsed with this guy but am determined to work hard to make it all work out for us.
The comments are getting to me now though.
I know he can be a bit full of himself and he gets really stressed out if his field mate goes out without him. He has trashed a fence or two to get where he wanted to be and he can be a sod to lead out on the road. BUT his manners are markedly improved since I got him. He is polite for the dentist/vet/farrier, he doesn't kick or bite. I can groom/handle every square inch of him with no worries though he can be a little sensitive about his ears. I can rug him/tack him up etc without issue. He can be a little cheeky to catch at times but has never been allowed to get away with it. He can definately be silly and spooky and is no angel but I don't understand why he is considered to be a handful....or am I looking at him through rose tinted specs??? :o
 
Take no notice, they are just making "expert" comments to try to make you feel bad about your own abilities. Handful horses are generally intelligent and use that wit against humans. You just have to be alert at all times and keep one step ahead of them all the time. Section Ds tend to be the epitome of this! Almost all animals don't want to be the bottom of the pecking order and if they can get a human or two below them, then they will certainly try. Your horse sounds pretty normal to me. You could always reply that you had offers to sort him out from others on the yard but preferred to send him to a professional who (actually) knew what they were doing, and let it sink in :)
 
fatpiggy said:
Take no notice, they are just making "expert" comments to try to make you feel bad about your own abilities. Handful horses are generally intelligent and use that wit against humans. You just have to be alert at all times and keep one step ahead of them all the time. Section Ds tend to be the epitome of this! Almost all animals don't want to be the bottom of the pecking order and if they can get a human or two below them, then they will certainly try. Your horse sounds pretty normal to me. You could always reply that you had offers to sort him out from others on the yard but preferred to send him to a professional who (actually) knew what they were doing, and let it sink in :)
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Where's the "like" button agree with this completely.

I had similar comments about my girl before she was backed, yes she can be a "handful" yes she is very intelligent, and no she is not an easy ride, however, she is my girl and i love her dearly, i have with the patience of my instructor, learned how to deal with her and ride her accordingly, and consequently made everyone eat their words! I now get OMG well done, you ride her really well etc. etc.,

I think you will find once your lad comes back from his rebacking/schooling he will be a different horse, look forward to getting on and enjoying yourself with him, take no notice of the so called experts who are most likeley jealous and probably would be quaking in their boots if they had him to deal with.


ETA: a handful is anything that someone else would not want to deal with due to their own inability or lack of experience
 
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fatpiggy said:
Take no notice, they are just making "expert" comments to try to make you feel bad about your own abilities. Handful horses are generally intelligent and use that wit against humans. You just have to be alert at all times and keep one step ahead of them all the time. Section Ds tend to be the epitome of this! Almost all animals don't want to be the bottom of the pecking order and if they can get a human or two below them, then they will certainly try. Your horse sounds pretty normal to me. You could always reply that you had offers to sort him out from others on the yard but preferred to send him to a professional who (actually) knew what they were doing, and let it sink in :)
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Totally agree!
 
I started a not dissimilar thread earlier in the week after just one too many persons came out of the woodwork with tales if horror and woe about the docile boy I have who does everything I ask...

One very kind soul said "deal with the horse YOU have" - and that's it in a nutshell. I don't see/feel this monster I've been told about. Instead I'm left perplexed as I've got the easiest horse I've ever owned! :D
 
fatpiggy said:
Almost all animals don't want to be the bottom of the pecking order and if they can get a human or two below them, then they will certainly try.
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For what purpose or motivation? Sorry, I don't see the logic of this. It's not like we're competing with them for anything (at least, we needn't be).
 
I'm not sure I agree that a "handful" is something someone else doesn't want to deal with - I'd describe my Daemon as a "handful" and I'm more than happy to deal with him. In my vocabulary it just means "has character", and will challenge you - that's a good thing in my book! It's a bit different to "dangerous" or "wild" or anything actually worrying. I'd take it as a compliment - all the best ponies can be a bit of a "handful" at times - even my Fergus can and he's ace ;)

#biasedownersyndrome
 
I think some people refer to anything other than a dope on a rope as a handful. My girls certainly fall into this category. Not mad or dangerous, but would (and have) walk all over anyone who allows them to.
I broke a mare in for someone last year, who had a bad reputation, she was very good to do, and has turned into a lovely horse, but I would say she can still be a handful, not because she is nasty, but simply because she has a bit about her.
 
JFTD said:
I'm not sure I agree that a "handful" is something someone else doesn't want to deal with - I'd describe my Daemon as a "handful" and I'm more than happy to deal with him. In my vocabulary it just means "has character", and will challenge you - that's a good thing in my book! It's a bit different to "dangerous" or "wild" or anything actually worrying. I'd take it as a compliment - all the best ponies can be a bit of a "handful" at times - even my Fergus can and he's ace ;)

#biasedownersyndrome
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This is the point i was actually trying to get across, what i meant was that the people who are telling her that he's a handful, are the people who don't know or dont want to deal with him! My girl is what you would call a handful, but to me she is a challenge and has bags and bags of character
 
fburton said:
For what purpose or motivation? Sorry, I don't see the logic of this. It's not like we're competing with them for anything (at least, we needn't be).
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We are competing with them not to be the lion's breakfast :) he'll eat the weakest and the rest will be safe for a few days.
 
Thanks for the replies. I definitely wouldn't say Jester is wild lol. He had a different name when I got him but Jester suited him so much better because he really is a clown :D
I don't personally find him alot of trouble although in fairness he is incredibly intelligent and really challenges me at times mentally. But that's what I love about him...you can really see his brain processing things and I have found him incredibly rewarding to have in my life. He has certainly taught me alot about patience and thinking outside the box.
I will be a wreck when he goes today....I already feel sick :o
 
cptrayes said:
We are competing with them not to be the lion's breakfast :) he'll eat the weakest and the rest will be safe for a few days.
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Sorry CTP but there are no lions in UK! I don't understand what you mean.



In my view horses can be a handful if they are stressed, handled in various ways so there is no solid learning or consistency.
It's about management and training and consistent handling not about being in some sort of competition with them or other handlers.
 
I guess you would describe the horse I ride as a handful, even dangerous perhaps....when ridden he rears, spins round, reverses at high speed, spooks at thin air and drops his shoulder so you are instantly on the floor, gets stroppy if there is another horse in the menage and I dont allow him to follow it around, he doesnt pay any attention to me when riding a lot of the time.....I definitely think he's a handful alright. So much so his owner wont even dream of sitting on him, muggins here is the one trying to work through it.

On the ground he is normally good but if other horses start mucking about in the field when you are leading him down he has been known to rear. He doesnt like having his bridle on (years of neglect with previous owner has left him with severe teeth issues that are now fixed but there is a bad association there) so will barge 2 adults out of the way and push you into the wall/door if you are trying to get the bridle on. He hates it when you change his routine i.e. he is out at night currently, so his field buddy goes out around 4pm and if we have kept him in to ride after work he is in a foul mood, stressed and completely un-cooperative.

Is he a handful because he is in the wrong hands? I wouldnt say I am the wrong hands, nor is his owner (well she is for riding him as shes a novice rider but on the ground great with him). She has spent thousands and thousands fixing his teeth, exploring many different pain avenues....but ultimately I think the woman who had him previously managed to do so much damage in those 2 years that he may never recover behaviourally. He is a big horse (17hh) and only 8, he is an appaloosa x WB so has that appy attitude as well which doesnt help!

In the wrong hands he could seriously hurt someone, I've come off a good few times but I know his tricks now and can handle it - but it would be very irresponsible for him to be sold onto someone else. We are scoping for ulcers as a last resort now, and hoping that he has thousands of the damn things to explain his behaviour - no horse should be this rude to an owner that literally saved him from a nasty end, he was passed around from dealer to dealer in terrible condition, drugged up and with the worse mouth you've ever seen. He's had nothing but the best treatment with his new owner, she's had him over a year and his health has improved no end, yet his behaviour is actually worse now than when she first got him.

That is what I'd describe as a handful - a horse that has been neglected in the past and is therefore left with pain and behavioural problems, and subsequently becomes a giant pain in the backside around humans because he has lost all trust.

Does your horse sound like a handful? Certainly doesnt sound easy, and the occasional bad manners on the ground are not great, but ultimately if you can handle it and enjoy your time with the horse (that is a big factor - the horse I ride's owner doesnt enjoy a single minute of being with him at the moment, rude on the ground and she cant even get on him) then who cares what other people say. One person's handful maybe another persons dope on a rope - after the horses I have ridden over the last year who have been mainly on a mission to kill me at every available opportunity, 99% of so called 'handful's' will seem like a walk in the park!
 
I wouldn't be making any judgements about a horse before its even been backed. Inquisitive, cheeky young horses can more often than not take really well to being broken and vice versa (some quiet horses can be quite cantankerous when made to work), and their temperaments on the ground aren't really indicative of what they will be under saddle so I'd be holding off judgement for a bit - and I wouldn't take the slightest bit of notice to anyone who did otherwise, to be honest.

For me a horse is only a problem if its a bit 'dirty' and that's really quite hard predict.
 
fatpiggy said:
Almost all animals don't want to be the bottom of the pecking order and if they can get a human or two below them, then they will certainly try.
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rubbish the vast majority of horses want a cool, calm and confident human around them and will try to work with someone who offers that, they are flight animals (some more so than others granted) and if those around them are calm they will feed of that and it helps in turn to calm the horse then they are able to process what is around them, horses are not after world domination and do not want to be above people-but if left to make decisions will often make ones that are not good ones for the world we ask them to occupy, a stallion will try to control the movements of a mare that is in season and we often get in the way of this but they are not wanting to dominate the person whos head they have just stamped on you can be 99% sure they tried to drive that person away with lots of body language that the human did not see or tried to stop.
'we' get in the way, 'we' don't read clear messages or 'we' knock the messages out of them because 'we' feel we know best. there are a few completely *********d up horses out there but you can be sure 'we' caused that too.

OP many people say a horse is a handful if they do not understand the horse/cannot cope with a horse, there is one a t work that I don't like and it is because he is so busy, he calls all the time when you hack him out, chews the fences, bangs the walls and generally makes a mess-I will end up liking him as he has character but we need to learn to a way of working together-I need to work on providing him with an environment that he feels comfortable in and build his trust in me so he does not feel the need to stress when he is in the stable or shout his head of when he is hacking out without another horse.

well done for dealing with the issues you have managed so far-you know when it comes right with the horses that take time and thought the bond is stronger and the satisfaction great.
 
cptrayes said:
We are competing with them not to be the lion's breakfast :) he'll eat the weakest and the rest will be safe for a few days.
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that is the fittest most agile and fastest-horses do not push each other to the lion so are not competing they just run and last one standing (or not) is a gonner it is not competing
 
twiggy2 said:
that is the fittest most agile and fastest-horses do not push each other to the lion so are not competing they just run and last one standing (or not) is a gonner it is not competing
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You think that's not a competition?

You can bet your bottom dollar that if you gave those fit horses a gap that would only take one horse at a time to run through so the lion didn't get them, they'd be pushing and shoving with all their might.

You can see this behaviour all the time in gateways when a group of horses are coming in for food.
 
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It's in a horses nature to compete, the most basic example I can think of is a stallion competing with another for a mare. We really can only make educated guesses as to what horses are thinking but I wouldn't dismiss competition as a possible driving force for some horses' behaviours.
 
I have a horse I'd say can be a handful, you can't really handle her with any degree of complacency (not that you should ever be completely complacent), she's not dangerous or outrageous but definitely everything is a negotiation with her.
 
For me a handful means something like my section a (typical welsh) who challenges me and requires me to be one step ahead of him due to his larger than life character- however that doesn't mean badly behaved or dangerous. A handful means quite literally that, you have your hands full with a slightly quirkier horse but often they have the most to give. To be honest, even my mellow and saint like Connemara can be a handful when the mood takes him...I really did have my hands full of fidgeting, jogging pony when riding him on box rest!
 
cptrayes said:
You think that's not a competition?

You can bet your bottom dollar that if you gave those fit horses a gap that would only take one horse at a time to run through so the lion didn't get them, they'd be pushing and shoving with all their might.
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Just like you see when mustangs are moved between holding pens, for example. The motivation is fear, even panic - each horse for itself - and in that situation even the dominant horse(s) can get pushed and shoved as there isn't time for them to line up in a nice orderly queue according to their position in the hierarchy.

(In open spaces - the more natural situation for horses - they are remarkably good at coordinating their movement as a fleeing group, with very little pushing and shoving. It seems they aren't so well adapted behaviourally to enclosed spaces. A lesson there perhaps?)

It still seems odd to me to view this as competition - and even if it was, I don't see how this relates to a horse being "a handful" because we're not talking about a "who can get away fastest?" contest between horse and handler. (The horse could be trying to get away from the handler, but that's an entirely different scenario.)

You can see this behaviour all the time in gateways when a group of horses are coming in for food.
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Okay, now we're getting closer to real competition - first dibs on food. There dominance can play a role in deciding who has priority access to a resource without resort to violencet every time. Arguably, that's what dominance is for.

But... big but... are we as handlers in competition with horses for food? No, we're not, though we may certainly come to be seen that way if we aren't careful, or if we deliberately and foolishly (imo) act like we are vying for the food by e.g. withholding it provocatively.

Even given the possibility of food competition with humans, I really don't see this as a credible explanation for horses being "a handful" (even around food!) when there are other, much better explanations.

Being "a handful" is a somewhat relative assessment. What to an inexperienced person is "a handful" may be quite manageable to someone else. Ultimately, though, it comes down to the horse having less than good manners, and this is a matter of training, or rather a lack of it, exacerbated by any number of factors including excess energy, hormones, character/personality, distractions (like other horses), spooky objects, spookiness magnifiers like wind, picking up fear or lack of confidence of the handler (leading to lack of confidence in the handler), etc.
 
doriangrey said:
It's in a horses nature to compete, the most basic example I can think of is a stallion competing with another for a mare. We really can only make educated guesses as to what horses are thinking but I wouldn't dismiss competition as a possible driving force for some horses' behaviours.
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I wouldn't argue with that at all. But do horses see us as other horses? Do we really want them to?? When I am handling a stallion for teasing and covering, how does he view me? As another rival stallion, or as a mare? I would suggest neither, and that's probably just as well! What then? You're right we don't know what horses are thinking, but if I had to hazard a guess it would be that the stallion views me as a rather unhorselike, diminutive creature that facilitates his desire to mate as long as he behaves in a particular way and within well-defined limits that he has learned - safely, sensibly and politely from my point of view - and that also does other nice things like make food appear and scratch itches, and is not generally to be feared, but liked and trusted. Definitely no competition!
 
fburton said:
I wouldn't argue with that at all. But do horses see us as other horses? Do we really want them to?? When I am handling a stallion for teasing and covering, how does he view me? As another rival stallion, or as a mare? I would suggest neither, and that's probably just as well! What then? You're right we don't know what horses are thinking, but if I had to hazard a guess it would be that the stallion views me as a rather unhorselike, diminutive creature that facilitates his desire to mate as long as he behaves in a particular way and within well-defined limits that he has learned - safely, sensibly and politely from my point of view - and that also does other nice things like make food appear and scratch itches, and is not generally to be feared, but liked and trusted. Definitely no competition!
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I never said they view us as other horses, in fact I emphatically believe they do not. That doesn't mean that horses can't be driven by competitive instinct/behaviour just as we can be. Is the question can horses be competitive with us? Possibly, I wouldn't discount it. Some horses can be competitive over food/space/companions why on earth would they not be capable of tranferring this competitiveness towards us under certain circumstances? I just used to let my stallion get on with it - he didn't need any direction from me ;)
 
doriangrey said:
I never said they view us as other horses, in fact I emphatically believe they do not. That doesn't mean that horses can't be driven by competitive instinct/behaviour just as we can be. Is the question can horses be competitive with us? Possibly, I wouldn't discount it. Some horses can be competitive over food/space/companions why on earth would they not be capable of tranferring this competitiveness towards us under certain circumstances?
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That's fair enough. I have no doubt myself that horses can be competitive with us - if we allow or encourage it. My personal view is not to allow or encourage it, if at all possible!

I just used to let my stallion get on with it - he didn't need any direction from me ;)
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Well, quite! ;) It's not uncommon to see handlers striving to micromanage the stallion's every move and ending up overdoing it and making it look like a battle of wills. Paradoxically, less trying to restrain and control may end up giving you more control.
 
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