What should / could I have done differently?

[Annagain]

We had the farrier this morning. He's always been happy to do the horses on his own but since I've had Charlie, he's not been 100% (just general fidgeting nothing nasty) so I've been starting work a bit later and hanging around to hold his head and distract him. He's getting better but we're not there yet. Today, as farrier was doing his back legs a couple of times Charlie hopped about a bit behind. He didn't move his front end which I was holding but he made it very difficult for the farrier to keep hold of the leg he was working on. To me it looked like he as struggling to balance a bit and needed to readjust, it wasn't nasty or an attempt to get away.

The first time the farrier let go, picked his foot up again and carried on with no problems but the second time, he tried to hold on, Charlie got a bit upset, pulled back (all on three legs) causing the farrier to be pushed a few steps across the yard, not with a great deal of force, just by Charlie taking the space. Farrier didn't say anything but I got the impression he wasn't very happy with me. I don't really know what I could have done - I had hold of the front end and until Charlie got a bit panicky that didn't move - I don't really know what I can do to stop him moving his back end like that when I'm at his head. He'd been fine for about 45 minutes until this point so I don't think it was him being naughty, he just needed to rearrange himself. Any thoughts / tips?

 

[Tiddlypom]

Hmm, I’d be thinking that Charlie is uncomfortable, and that is making him misbehave. How is he to have his hind feet picked out?

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I remember years ago a brilliant farrier (the best we've ever had) telling the apprentice that he had brought with him that the Clydesdale mare that he was shoeing, needed to readjust her balance just as much as the TB racehorses that the also did, needed to. The brilliant farrier relocated when the racehorse trainer moved to different premises and as soon as he was qualified we employed the apprentice. He wasn't brilliant at letting them rebalance. I wish all farriers would allow horses to readjust their balance, unless of course they are nailing on when that could be dangerous.
All you can do is ask your farrier to allow Charlie to adjust his balance. I find with youngsters that if they can stand next to a wall they don't feel as unbalanced, perhaps that would work for Charlie, too?

 

[Annagain]

Hmm, I’d be thinking that Charlie is uncomfortable, and that is making him misbehave. How is he to have his hind feet picked out?

He's fine but it did take a bit of work when I first had him 6 months ago. He's come over from Ireland and is typical of an Irish horse - he's had the bare minimum done but learns quickly and is generally very sweet. This was while he was having the shoes nailed on having stood perfectly to have them removed, feet trimmed, shoes fitted and shaped etc. I don't know if he was bit fed up of being fiddled with as it was nearly at the end but it seemed more to me that his balance wasn't quite right and he just needed to move where his other leg was. When he was allowed to do that he was fine, when he wasn't, it escalated.

 

[milliepops]

Hmm, I’d be thinking that Charlie is uncomfortable, and that is making him misbehave. How is he to have his hind feet picked out?

this is definitely a possibly to consider, but also a couple of things -

I always get told off if I distract my horses while they are being shod (OH is my farrier ) they have to concentrate on what's going on. not get distracted. i know what you mean, you're trying to keep him settled, but if the horse generally understands not to bosh someone out of the way in other circumstances, they should remember that when having their feet done. Sometimes just staying a bit more aware of what's going on is what is needed.

if he's shod behind, a horse pulling away when you're nailing on is a prime time to get your hands shredded so I can understand the farrier being a bit miffed.

 

[SEL]

I've been in this position with a farrier with my little pony. Not sure what's gone on before but she's very nervous and just needs regular breaks and reassurance - hanging on just makes her worse and last time he did it she nearly fell over and we were back to square 1.

Personally I'd practice without the farrier and see what range of motion Charlie has. If you find he's a bit sore then bute before trimming can help (obviously vet also). Sometimes it is just practice and I have a hoof stand to get them used to having their legs up. A quiet word with the farrier about 'he struggles with his back legs and will need a break' might also help. I don't know why some farriers are so insistent on not listening to the horse, giving them 2 minutes and then picking the leg up again. Its a real ego thing at times.
ETA - although if he was mid nailing a shoe on then giving them a rest is tricky!

 

[Goldenstar]

What you need to to is work on holding your horses legs up for long periods every day .
Get a light hammer and bang his feet when you are holding them up .
If the horse does not improve speak to your vet about trying some Bute before shoeing if that helps you know he has an issue you need to look into .

 

[Annagain]

this is definitely a possibly to consider, but also a couple of things -

I always get told off if I distract my horses while they are being shod (OH is my farrier ) they have to concentrate on what's going on. not get distracted. i know what you mean, you're trying to keep him settled, but if the horse generally understands not to bosh someone out of the way in other circumstances, they should remember that when having their feet done. Sometimes just staying a bit more aware of what's going on is what is needed.

if he's shod behind, a horse pulling away when you're nailing on is a prime time to get your hands shredded so I can understand the farrier being a bit miffed.

I can understand him being miffed at the situation, but this felt like he was miffed with me from the look I got. I don't know what I can do to stop him hopping about with his back legs when I'm at his head (at farrier's request) He doesn't do it when I lift his legs normally so I can't train him not to do it, if you see what I mean. In fact he hasn't really done that before, ever, not even with the farrier the other times he been shod. This must be the 4th or 5th time he's been done with me.

 

[PapaverFollis]

The best farriers I've had are able to work with the horses without getting into any kind of tussle over legs. They have able to read the horse and don't hold legs awkwardly or too long.

Honestly not sure what an owner holding the front end can do in the situation you describe but I do find that generally my horses have been better if they are left to concentrate on the farrier. I would work on getting him really comfortable releasing and relaxing into having his back leg held up and messed with for long periods of time.

 

[milliepops]

I can understand him being miffed at the situation, but this felt like he was miffed with me from the look I got. I don't know what I can do to stop him hopping about with his back legs when I'm at his head (at farrier's request) He doesn't do it when I lift his legs normally so I can't train him not to do it, if you see what I mean. In fact he hasn't really done that before, ever, not even with the farrier the other times he been shod. This must be the 4th or 5th time he's been done with me.

I'm just relating it to the telling off i get if I don't make the horse concentrate, that's all I was getting at. OH gets miffed at ME I know there's not a lot you can do from the head and I'm only going off what you have said but If I give mine treats or scratches and take their mind off the person attached to the hind foot, they fidget or wriggle more than if I just stand there and get them to concentrate on the job. might not apply, just chucking it in as a possible.

 

[Annagain]

The best farriers I've had are able to work with the horses without getting into any kind of tussle over legs. They have able to read the horse and don't hold legs awkwardly or too long.

He's normally great and wasn't not great today, I just felt the situation was tense. I've used him for about 12 years since Archie had his foot problems and my vet recommended him to me. He's been great with Arch and takes his fronts really slowly as he knows he struggles to put weight on the other leg for long time without shoes on. I just got the impression he wasn't giving Charlie the same benefit of the doubt today. Maybe the timing was just bad or I'm overthinking it.

 

[Annagain]

I'm just relating it to the telling off i get if I don't make the horse concentrate, that's all I was getting at. OH gets miffed at ME I know there's not a lot you can do from the head and I'm only going off what you have said but If I give mine treats or scratches and take their mind off the person attached to the hind foot, they fidget or wriggle more than if I just stand there and get them to concentrate on the job. might not apply, just chucking it in as a possible.

I get that and do try to leave him alone as much as possible, I'm normally just there, mucking out or pottering, in case farrier needs me. Today, he asked me to hold him after the first leg incident. He doesn't get fed treats as he's very mouthy so I was just holding him.

 

[PapaverFollis]

Perhaps you were all just having an off day. Maybe he'd had a really difficult horse at the previous call and it just set his adrenaline going again when Charlie pulled against him. Maybe he was in a bad mood and Charlie was reacting to that.

Try not to worry too much. I'd just do some specific back leg handling work before next time. It's something I think they can always get a bit better at.

 

[Annagain]

Perhaps you were all just having an off day. Maybe he'd had a really difficult horse at the previous call and it just set his adrenaline going again when Charlie pulled against him. Maybe he was in a bad mood and Charlie was reacting to that.

Try not to worry too much. I'd just do some specific back leg handling work before next time. It's something I think they can always get a bit better at.

That's probably true. I might try a bit of gentle banging with him!

 

[White Horse2]

Do you really need back shoes atm? Sounds like you've a good relationship with the farrier, try the ' sorry C was being a tit, what do you think about leaving back shoes off until I've had some more time for training.....dah de dah etc

 

[limestonelil]

Maybe farrier was just having a bad day himself for whatever reason? Maybe try not to worry too much about it, and you could usefully try some of the practical suggestions re lifting feet and rebalancing. It could have been one of those 'sorry about that look, it just slipped out' moments that happen.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I know with one of my horses he struggles having his hind legs held up high but he does have hock arthritis, luckily neither of mine are shod but I know it can be uncomfortable for some horses if they have any issues.

How old is your horse?

 

[Annagain]

He's rising 7 but more like a 5 year old in terms of handling - he's good but having come from Ireland he's only had the basics done to him. I've had him 6 months, this was the first time he's done more than a bit of fidgeting and trying to steal the farrier's hat.

 

[Kat]

Do you really need hind shoes? Most horses are fine without. You can't let a horse put its foot down during nailing on as there is an injury risk but trimming is quicker and the horse can rest as much as it needs to.

I'd consider not only whether Charlie might be uncomfortable lifting/holding his leg up but whether he might find nailing on uncomfortable. Low grade laminitis or other hoof issues could mean that nailing on hurts.

Mine was tricky to shoe, not nasty but fidgety, also an Irish youngster. The farrier was very patient and kind with her, she improved after having a few sessions of osteopathy, she was sound but the treatment clearly made it easier for her to stand on three legs. Then once we had her shoes off she improved again, she's fine now as long as her feet are comfortable.

 

[LEC]

It will depend on his levers and balance. I have had some who are great but most of mine have been awkward to shoe until they get their balance. Not in a nasty way just its really hard for them and we underestimate that.

My first trick to teach them to balance. Not enough people do this IMO. I spend a lot of time randomly picking up each hind leg and waiting for the weight to shift appropriately. To learn to move their feet will take some co-ordination. I normally tap the leg on the foot I want until they shift their weight and then look to pick it up. I will then go round all 4 legs randomly picking up legs. They tend to get a treat if good and then they are even keener to learn to shift their feet. This will be done randomly - in stable, before they are ridden, after they are ridden.

I am a strong believer in Likits or similar ilk as promotes relaxation. All mine have it near by for shoeing as have their moments. One until recently needed to be doped as would get very upset by being shod as found it hard to balance and would then lose the plot. I never tie them up to shoe when they risk being awkward as this increased pressure is more likely to make them throw in the towel and become unreasonable. They get tied up when really good in their balance and safe to do so.

The most vital thing is encouraging relaxation without it you are wasting your time. The balance worsens, their experience is worse and they get anxiety. Some I find will be better to shoe after being lunged - I guess it warms the muscles up. People just expect horses to be great at balancing from the off but if I made you go on all 4s and picked up one of your legs I bet you would find it hard.

 

[Annagain]

Do you really need hind shoes? Most horses are fine without. You can't let a horse put its foot down during nailing on as there is an injury risk but trimming is quicker and the horse can rest as much as it needs to.

I'd consider not only whether Charlie might be uncomfortable lifting/holding his leg up but whether he might find nailing on uncomfortable. Low grade laminitis or other hoof issues could mean that nailing on hurts.

Mine was tricky to shoe, not nasty but fidgety, also an Irish youngster. The farrier was very patient and kind with her, she improved after having a few sessions of osteopathy, she was sound but the treatment clearly made it easier for her to stand on three legs. Then once we had her shoes off she improved again, she's fine now as long as her feet are comfortable.

Thanks - this is once out of four or five shoeings so far so i'm hoping it was just a one off but will definitely keep an eye on it. He might get away without shoes but long term will probably need studs in the summer at least so I think it's probably best to persevere for now and hope we don't get a repeat.

 

[Scotsbadboy]

OP its interesting you say he's from Ireland and he fidgets when it comes to the nailing on. My Irish horse (fairly fresh off the boat) wasnt used to the smoke from hot shoeing (hes a gent, he'd never object, just look worried) and he is fidgety when it comes time to nail the shoe on but is pretty solid up to that point!

Mine is very tight behind, he isnt shod on his hinds. We are under physio instruction for daily massage and stretches and he can stretch for a good minute + per leg stretched behind him now. Farrier is due next week and i will effectively 'warm' the horse up before he arrives and do our stretching routine in preparation for the shoeing to see if that makes a difference.

Ask your farrier, put the ball back in his court. What could i do differently? How can i help? is there anything i can do in advance to stop this happening again?

Also to addwhat LEC says about balance. My boy has terrible balance and lacks core strength. The physio work we are doing is really helping with this as well as the stretches i wave his legs all over the place and all kinds of angles, lol!

 

[PapaverFollis]

My Irish horse also tricky to shoe behind. Not naughty as such but struggled with balance and was generally worried by it. To be honest we just took her back shoes off. They went back on briefly later on and she was much better with a bit of age, experience and core strength behind her.

 

[Merry neddy man]

What you need to to is work on holding your horses legs up for long periods every day .
Get a light hammer and bang his feet when you are holding them up .
If the horse does not improve speak to your vet about trying some Bute before shoeing if that helps you know he has an issue you need to look into .

Ditto with holding and tapping and ask the farrier to do the hind feet 1st and fore feet last.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I have started leaving my cob and the farrier in the stable together, my presence seems to make her (cob) more fidgety. I'm not sure why, unless she feels that there isn't really enough room for us all in the stable. I am nearby, I can hear exactly what is going on and I wouldn't usually leave the farrier to get on with it like that but for this horse, it works.

 

[Chuffy99]

Ask if it’s possible to do the backs first?

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Ask if it’s possible to do the backs first?

We do this for our Appy, who was very upset by having a vet sedate her to dog around inn her front hoof, a few years ago. Sister worked on it for months and got her much better about picking up her feet but when the farrier comes she begins to panic. She is fine though if he starts with the backs.

 

[tristar]

i have an irish horse who was untrained at picking upthe feet, the hinds were the worst, took it slowly i now rub down his leg then pat on the quarters slowly then look around a bit , and wait he then picks up the leg and rests it on his toe, ipick up the leg and he is relaxed and not resistant, i can hold his hoof up with one finger, i think being careful not to pull the leg too much to the outside and holding it lowish is a great help to some with their balance to start with

 

[SusieT]

Did you apologise to farrier or ask if he was ok ? If owner said nothing that would feel a bit odd to me that owner didnt comment on it.

 

[atropa]

I'm another who has an Irish horse who can be funny with her feet. It doesn't matter how much I work with her practicing picking up, how much my male partner works with her, she can be fine with us but she can sense a farrier a mile off and her behaviour declines unfortunately.