What sort of standard is Flora's dressage - advice needed?

Fiona

Fiona

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Hi guys

I was out doing some aff dressage just after Xmas on Flora (5yo TB mare, off all summer with bruised foot, back in work 4 months). The warmup was inside and the tests outside, arena was sand with a few puddles because of the rain. Weather was bright and sunny with no wind. Bear with me, I'm just trying to set the scene here....

After the first 5 min, she was v good in the warmup and working nicely. Didn't get much time when I went outside before the 1st test (prelim 12) and she was a bit sharp in the arena, ie spooking at puddles and 1 v bad canter transition and TBH I wasn't disappointed with her score which was 51% with a few encouraging comments at the bottom.

I was looking forward to the second test which was with a judge I respect, and she had settled a lot after the 1st test. To me she went well, much more relaxed than the first one, very light in front, and if she came up momentarily, I was quick to correct within astride or so. Apart from 1 slightly too large circle and a step back in her halt the accuracy was fine, so I was gutted to get a LOWER score than in the first test ie half marks.

Now my question is this... Is she still only working at 50% ( I have been schooling her for approx 18 months). If so I may shoot myself now as I am obviously not capable of schooling a young horse.
Alternatively did the judge pick up on something in particular which brought the marks down to that level (not tongue sticking out but that is an example), or something that I was doing that brought the marks right down.

TBH - my OH gets higher marks than that in PN event dressage, in a class full of pros, he is normally nearer the bottom than the top but with mark of about 55-60%, and his dressage is I have to admit fairly bad as he isn't interested and doesn't have a consistent outline.

I thought I had a fairly consistent outline, did most movements accurately, can't detect any tension in her paces etc, so what am I doing wrong.

Video is attached below (in two parts as was a bit big to put on as 1 file). Apologies if it takes a while to load - putfile gives a v clear image, but tends to take a while.

I would be v v v grateful for any advice offered.


http://media.putfile.com/Danescroft-Part1

http://media.putfile.com/Flora-Danescroft-Part2

Fiona
 
couldnt see vid
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I have tested them both...says "buffering" for a while before it is ready though. Putfile is very clear compared to photobucket, but the clips take a bit longer to open though.

Fiona
 
I don't know if what i am saying is correct as I am no dressage rider! But it looks like she is on the forehand. Although she is has her head in the correct postoin she is not working properly from her backend. Also she could be a bit more rythmical (sp) Shes looking about a lot which makes her seem a bit stop and start.

I think the low marks are just becasue she is a baby and when she concentrates and works from behind you will instantly get better marks.
 
ok, here goes, she looks abit stuffy to begin with and a bit tense across the poll, but this improves as you go on, she does look a little fussy in the mouth esp in walk and she didnt seem to be working entirly from behind properly but apart from that looked like a nice test, definatly warm up for longer as she seemed to improve the more you did, hope this helps, shes very nice
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I'm certainly not suggeting she should have got 70% or anything like that, but she was getting similar marks as a v green 4yo who wobbled all over the place and whose transitions were quite often late. Therefore I thought if that sort of a baby test was at around the 50% standard, then what she was doing this year was worth a bit more if you see what I mean.
Her first test that day was v tense and stressy, and got the sort of mark I thought it deserved, but still higher than 2nd one.
In the videoed test, I thought she felt much more relaxed and her back was much freer and swinging. If as you say she isn't working from behind, I'm lost as to what to do next, as we have regular lessons and clinics as it is.
I am very confused.
Fiona
 
Fiona, I only managed to watch half of the first test..... I thought she looked a bit babyish in the sense that she was very wobbly. At times it looked as though you were sitting on a worm and she was wriggling a little. I thought you rode very nicely, soft and quiet and not interfering with her at all. She looks a nice little mare with a lovely attitude and looks to be trying hard for you. As she does a bit more and becomes a bit more balanced the wobblyness will disappear and she will carry herself a little more. The only other thing I could pick up on was that she was not really tracking up - but again this will come will increased balance and strength. When you start to feel her becoming stronger perhaps ask for a little more power from behind without letting her run on through the front door. I hope you don't think I am being critical of her. I think she is a nice little horse with a lovely attititude. She will get higher marks with a little more balance and strength. I do think that your 50% marks are a little harsh as she is obedient and shows no sign of resistance but all the ingredients to be scoring 60% + in 6 months.
 
Sorry - forgot to say that the loose rein walk was fairly bad. I certainly wouldn't have given her a good mark for it. Thankfully not too much walk in that test though.
If she's not working from behind, then maybe that's the problem, but not something that instructor has ever said to me. We spend lots of time on transitions and varying the pace within the trot and his most recent comment has been that she's sometimes a bit dead off the leg causing me to niggle at her a bit. Not a problem at that particular competition though, as she seemed to have lots of energy.
FIona
 
tbh, id say shes pretty much where she should be -from what you ahve said in your post.

You say shes been off work-so only been back in work for a few months after a summer off, so thats would put her behind. Then the weather was windy n rainy-not the most perfect conditions on a 5yr old Tb! hehe! So doesnt sound like the best trip out! ( i do know the feeling)

What im trying to say is that i think you should really give her at least to the end of the summer- provided she is in work for all that time to really assess her capabilities-as it seems this year has been a bit stop start with her-so your bound to feel a bit deflated-but she is really only working as a 4yr old due to the time off.

yes she moves nicely and is responsive but she is on the forehand and the test although accurate didnt run very smoothly-BUT i personally would put that down to the day and the fact shes still quite babyish!!!

i bet this time next year, you will be amazed at the difference with her! Shes a lovely mare-good luck with it all and you arent rubbish at schooling young horses!
 
Thanks ISZ. I certainly wouldn't have posted the video unless I was willing to be told what was wrong with us.
I am just frustrated as in terms of marks it seems we haven't improved from a year ago, but in terms of her schooling and rideability I feel she has come on a lot in that time.
I posted clips on here last year, and was told she was running and on her forehand, and I was niggling at her too much, so I have tried to be careful recently not to push her out of her rhythm and make her 'run', especially in trot.

Fiona
 
She is lovely and looks great for a baby!

Im no expert at all but I think she needs to waken up a bit as she just looks as though she is dawdling around. If she has more impulsion she will track up better, work from behind more and you will score higher. It looks a little bit like hard work at the moment.
From what I've learned, a horse who is working forward with good impulsion but no defined outline will actually score higher than one who is just going through the motions. I only know this from working on this problem with my lazy girl who's 20 and has no excuses lol, I'm sure the others will be able to give you more practical advice.

You can definately school a young horse!! Please don't feel disheartened, she is obedient and willing. What a great start to build on!
 
As well as my normal lessons, I had a few last year with John Bowen, and he said that Flora would very easily look 'on the forehand' and short in her neck, because she is very deep girthed and also a little croup high (thus presenting a downhill picture).
I don't work her in a deep outline on purpose, and try to keep hands up etc but don't think I could bring her frame 'up' much more without her hollowing. I'm sure my instructor probably could but not me (at the moment anyway).
Maybe that's the solution - get him to ride her!!! (and I'll be the videoperson)
Fiona
 
Thanks.
As above - just feeling frustrated at the mo.

As my mare was off over the summer I did a couple of intros on my 24yo welsh cob. Now Ben's greatest dislike is dressage, he can look gorgeous when he wishes (obviously being welsh he has great paces) but they have never been shown within the confines of a dressage arena where he pootles around with a fairly hollow outline. Even he managed to get about 55% (from the same judge) and I couldn't bear to watch the video it was just too bad.
Maybe that is why I think Flo deserves better.

Fiona
 
Ok I have only watched the first half as the vids take a while to download but would presume the second half is pretty much the same.

I do not want to sound harsh but you asked for an honest opinion and so I hope you don't mind getting mine for what it's worth (list 3 judge).

I cannot comment on any other marks you may have had in other tests as have not seen the tests but I think the score was not far off.

With a prelim level horse the main thing we should be looking at are a consistant rhythm, a supple swinging back and a steady acceptance of the contact. I'm afraid I just do not see this and therefore your marks will reflect this.

The rhythm is varying all the time, she speeds up and slows down. I feel this is partly due to tension and partly a loss of balance as she is far too low in the poll and rather behind the vertical at times.

Without the relaxation that is achieved through a consistant rhythm then the suppleness and swing that should show through the back cannot happen. This is really evident in the 20m circles. She doesn't bend around your inside leg at all and her nose is pointing in one minute and out the next with no consistant flexion to the inside.

This leads us on to acceptance of the contact. At this stage the horse should take the bit softly in the mouth maintaining a steady contact with the riders hand, carrying the nose slightly in front of the vertical, and you can see by the wavering head that this is not happening. The poll is far too low and she is ,as previously mentioned, behind the vertical at times with alot of tilting from side to side as she tries to evade the contact.

Her balance is very on the forehand and when going large she quite often is not staying on the track. These are all things that in a test will keep the marks low. That said I do think I may have been a little higher had I judged you but only by a percent or two.

I really do hope you don't take offence at this post as you asked for opinions and I have tried to be honest without sounding as if I'm trying to make you feel that you don't know what you're talking about.

After making the above observations I would also like to say that the horse looks as though once relaxed and with better balance and engagement that she would present a very attractive picture and I thought you rode her sympathetically. I just feel the basics are not yet established enough to keep the work correct in the exciting environment of a show. They always say in an ideal world you should be working at home at the level above that at which you are competing but I think it does youngsters good to get out and about even if they are not quite ready.

Please feel free to flame me if you feel I've been unfair as it's just my opinon and I've tried to explain why I think the judge gave you the score she did without making un necessary critiscisms or judgements..
 
I think this sums up what I was thinking Fiona.
One other thing though. You scored primarily 5s for your test which seems a bit disheartening, but she looks like with a bit more consistency you could improve really quickly, 1 mark improvement and you are in the 30s at Intro or PN, that would be absolutely fine wouldn't it?
She just looks green to me and that's something you can correct very easily
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If you feel you are at a standstill try a different trainer. Sometimes having a fresh perspective can work wonders.
 
Same as above really, may have some helpful tips though?
you might find it really helpfull to do loads and loads of transitions when you are schooling at home. An exercise I use is half a cirle in walk then half in trot then half in canter and then trot and so on, you can also try this in a seprentine, changing gait over the c. line. make sure you give her long walks every 10 mins or so to let her stretch, this is good for loosening her whole frame, and will help your fwlr.
Your transitions looked fine, but you will find if you do lots more at home, she will become much more between hand and leg, and they will bring her back end underneath her more, and these combined should help you maintain a constant rhythm and stop her getting to forward in her canter. I would not worry too much about her looking around, it is important that she doesn't feel trapped my your hands, so that instead of forcing her down she will, when more experienced stay down because she is happy with your lovely soft hands! Her head carriage will also change as her balance develops.

She looks sweet! Good luck!
 
Jlav has said all I was going to as a List 5 judge, rhythm, Suppleness and contact most important at this level and all there is some issues with all three, as she said quite often you are not on the track, with quarters swinging and being on the forehand etc. Be careful not to put too much more energy into her (as I think someone above has said to do) before you have her more supple over her back as this will make problems worse, but first work on getting her more supple and into a steadier contact, then the rhythm in corners etc will improve and then you will have more fluency to the work and will be able to add more implusion.
 
And I think you have done the right thing. She has had some time off and with babies this often means they take steps back whereas a horse established in its work would pick up quickly to the standard they were working at before. Don't be hard on yourself - keep doing what you are doing, video yourself once a month if you can - both at home and at comps and look for improvements. It is good that she is not running on through your hands, much harder to establish balance and rhythm when everything is running out of the front door. Why not try and go to once of those test training days where you ride the test, have 10 minute session with the judge and then re-ride the test. I think you would find it very useful to get a judges perspective first hand and some help. Sometimes dressage baffles us all - what ARE they looking for - some days after watching a couple of tests and then looking at the scoreboard I really cannot tell
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Hey! I think you are doing grand esp after all the time she has had off. Also when they go out there is loads to look at and they dont concentrate as much.

I woudl say that when you are wlaking let your reins out more as she was pulling them out and wanting to strecth donw so let her- they love to see that!

also make sure ur tests r totally accurate and ride ito corners more and keep to boards as well as doing movement at the markers- in some you were a stride or two before but i no what its liek on a baby and you r better to be early that late!

good luck- u r doing grand! (also bit harsh it was maggie when her son trains you!!! lol

Rachel
 
I only watched the first part and I am not an expert but one of the smallest things that I really found probably helped me the most was just working on straightness. I was told to practice walking my straight lines as center lines and having the feeling that at any point I could make a turn either way. Also to ride my corners at 90 degrees not worrying too much about outline but using my seat, legs and hands to keep my horse straight and upright (i.e. not dropping his weight more to one side than the other) through the turns, allowing his body to bend and the head and neck to follow. I found that actually keeping him straight was harder than I thought as I had always had some inside bend. After about 15-20 mins of just keeping him straight he naturally came down into a lovely soft outline and I could then do anything I wanted with him. As an observation your mare does seem to be in your inside hand on the left rein, perhaps try some outside hand and outside leg to keep her upright? I really think helping to keep her straight will help her keep her balance and then give her the confidence to maintain a nice constant even rhythm. Hope this has been some help, you ride very nicely and she will make a lovely horse.
 
Good point (that the 5's only need to turn into 6's to get a half decent score), but seems a long way away at the moment, especially as the consensus seems to be here that the basics are wrong. I definitely wanted honest opinions, but is still a bit deflating as I am the one who has done her schooling.
My instructor hasn't really told me this (or not as bluntly anyway). Either I need to arrange the lessons for a strange venue so that she is not in her 'comfort zone' of home, or I eed a different one who will kick me up the a**e and get me going again.
FIona
 
You have only commented on what you saw, and that's why I posted the videos as I really wanted honest opinions.
I think she is working well at home at the moment (though perhaps beginning to doubt myself), and I have lessons at home, maybe I need to do more stuff at a strange place so I can get used to riding her when she is being sharp (she is normally v laid back and relaxed at home).
The last test we did was an unaff RC one (prelim 10 again I think) about 2 months ago and we got 66%, so either she went a lot better, or the judge was being 'very' kind indeed.
Maybe I should video her at home and put it up to compare.
Possibly not what I wanted to hear, but valuable nontheless, and thanks for taking the time to watch and to type that massive post.

FIona
 
I think it can be hard with young horses to school them and stay clear about how things are going, are they round enough -or too round, have I got enough bend or too much, should I be asking for more engagement of just focussing on rhythm etc etc.. (or is it just me!!!
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) I can really see you doing stuff I do /have done with babies - I have had a couple of hallelluja (sp) moments wih young horses at a similar stage to Flora's with good instructors.
Go on a few clnics or something, but don't get too down she has so much going for her, for all that she is a bit wibbly the mo. (nb it's only January....
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if she's anything like Sienna you won't get a half decent test out of her till May anyway......
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)
 
Please don't get too disheartened. I've had babies who were wobbling all over the place in our first tests, and a few months later after working on straightness and settling them in to a rhythm were scoring well in to the 60s.

You've got a nice horse there, but I agree with the others, that it's still very green. I think you looked quite stiff (or nervous?), especially through your back and elbows, and relaxing a little might help her keep steadier in her head and work through her back.

Do you belong to a riding club or have the opportunity to go to clinics? When I was doing dressage more seriously I found it invaluable to get the views of several instructors this way (you can always disgard their advice if you think it's not right for you).
 
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