what to do? end of the road, where next

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spike123

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I'm usually first to say pts when I think a problem is at that point but I don't think that we are there just yet. Problem is she's lame. She has high and low ringbone, has asthma, Hates being stabled and has seperation issues that are mostly resolved but usually revert there when asked to do something she doesn't like such as being stabled. She box walks, doesn't eat, gets lathered in sweat from being stressed but yard rules require stabling in winter months or any periods of really bad weather. Hopefully not lost you all reading so far. Basically I've had this mare nearly 2yrs now. She came to me absolutely terrified of life with no experience of anything. By that i mean bolting through electric fencing when a shod horse walked past her. I started to work with her and have not had it easy by any means. Her go to was to bolt through people with fear when scared. Now she looks to me for her security and in that respect is mostly far more respectful of my space and stays with me rather than runs through me. She has maxed her insurance for arthritis in her feet now so we are no longer covered. She's had arthramid and steroids in all 4 main joints of her front feet. The thing is we have literally tried everything to keep her sound except shoes which to be honest I think she'd need full sedation to even try. She recently went lame in her front right. Steroids injected, she was sound for a week and went lame in her left. She had steroids in that in December and the vet is reluctant to repeat sooner than 12 mths. She;s struggling with the hard ground and so has scoot boots and pads to help her be comfortable and danilon on sore days where it's obvious she's not right. She can lightly hack but is never going to be 100% guaranteed depending on how sound she feels. If I retire her then Ideally i would need to find somewhere she could live out and with constant company because she box walks and gets upset when stabled. Last winter we did get to a stage where she was reasonably chilled but soon as any movement of horses in or out she gets very upset. I feel it's not right to put her down because of this reason and she's sound in the field except when the ground is hard. She's only 15 so it's reasonable to assume she could have some light work but I think she would be happiest as a companion horse where she has friends and is allowed to live out. She's generally no problem to handle but definitely not suited to a novice home as she needs to know she's safe and secure and it's highly likely moving her will result in a good ten steps back. So come on please what would you do if she was yours.
 
I'd probably try her on a retirement livery where she didn't have to be stabled and was close enough to do at least weekly checks.
PTS would be possible especially if no suitable retirement place or not affordable.
I would be happy to try remedial shoes in principle but you know best if this would be a possibility.
I would definitely not pass her on to someone else.
At 15 and still lame after a lot of veterinary intervention I would stop riding her.
 
Burnttoast said:
My view is that PTS is never a welfare issue, hard though it is for us, but some of the things you've described have the potential to be - or already are, if her lameness and distress can't be easily alleviated.
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Absolutely in agreement. Just before getting her I had one pts because his arthritis was end stage and no more could be done. He was 21. It's just 15 seems too young when she isn't that uncomfortable in the field at least. The asthma is easily managed with avoiding her triggers of dust. Her distress however is a different thing. She has bonded with me and I do feel some sense of responsibility in having taken her on but not in the same sense as I did my horse who i'd owned some 15years. I would not have taken her on had i been aware of her issues. She was sound when i got her but the ringbone has progressed rapidly and the asthma they neglected to inform me of.
 
nutjob said:
I'd probably try her on a retirement livery where she didn't have to be stabled and was close enough to do at least weekly checks.
PTS would be possible especially if no suitable retirement place or not affordable.
I would be happy to try remedial shoes in principle but you know best if this would be a possibility.
I would definitely not pass her on to someone else.
At 15 and still lame after a lot of veterinary intervention I would stop riding her.
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retirement livery i'd certainly consider if I could find the right location for her. Vet said shoes a definite last resort in her case. It's taken the near on 2 years to get her calm and sensible around the farrier with just trimming. Having spoken to her previous farrier he was amazed I'd managed that.
Vet has said ride as much as is possible lightly but if we can't keep her comfortable then retirement is fair enough
 
spike123 said:
Absolutely in agreement. Just before getting her I had one pts because his arthritis was end stage and no more could be done. He was 21. It's just 15 seems too young when she isn't that uncomfortable in the field at least. The asthma is easily managed with avoiding her triggers of dust. Her distress however is a different thing. She has bonded with me and I do feel some sense of responsibility in having taken her on but not in the same sense as I did my horse who i'd owned some 15years. I would not have taken her on had i been aware of her issues. She was sound when i got her but the ringbone has progressed rapidly and the asthma they neglected to inform me of.
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Many horses are pts much much younger than that. I'd be guided by the situation rather than an arbitrary number. As someone else said, passing her on would be the worst option given her issues, and pts a perfectly reasonable - and also responsible - course of action.
 
My old boy was 17. If it hadn't been for a summer of various big anniversaries I would have PTS earlier than Sept - it was a drought year & hard ground brutal on his joints. Agreement with the vet to up the drugs & see. He was fine and then one day I looked at him and knew he'd had enough.

Look at the horse in front of you, not the age on the passport. If they aren't happy then you've got your answer. Sometimes no matter how hard you try - & I would have spent £1000s if it would have helped - the kindest option is PTS xx
 
Sorry but I'd pts
spike123 said:
Absolutely in agreement. Just before getting her I had one pts because his arthritis was end stage and no more could be done. He was 21. It's just 15 seems too young when she isn't that uncomfortable in the field at least. The asthma is easily managed with avoiding her triggers of dust. Her distress however is a different thing. She has bonded with me and I do feel some sense of responsibility in having taken her on but not in the same sense as I did my horse who i'd owned some 15years. I would not have taken her on had i been aware of her issues. She was sound when i got her but the ringbone has progressed rapidly and the asthma they neglected to inform me of.
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Isn't that uncomfortable is still uncomfortable, she could live 15 more years and that's a long, long time to be in discomfort

She has a lot going on and doesn't sound happy. In all honesty it sounds like the previous owners did both you and her a disservice selling her to you in the first place but if she was mine I'd be calling time.
 
I'd try to find her somewhere with year round herd turnout where iI could do her myself, I couldn't pass her on or put her on retirement livery where she was done by someone else. You may not have had her for years and years but you've earned her trust and if I were you I couldn't betray that. Failing that I'd give her plenty of painkillers for a few weeks and then pts at home with me there, I wouldn't be happy about it but at least I'd know she was at peace and with no risk of being passed on or asked to do more thann she can manage.
 
I got to ‘she’s lame’ and thought pts. If you can keep her comfy and not lame on Bute, then that’s your solution. But if you cannot, I would call it. Being long term lame with no prospect for recovery is just endlessly being vulnerable and in pain. I bet she brightens when she sees you and you are the happiness in her day - get someone to video her when you are not there. How does she look then? Is she ok? Or is her face drawn?

I had to let one go closer to 15 than 20. She had a long term chronic condition that we had managed well…until her body gave up and nothing worked any more. Lots of sympathy - it is so hard when they haven’t had a long life. I would try daily Bute for now and see if it will give her more time.
 
maya2008 said:
I got to ‘she’s lame’ and thought pts. If you can keep her comfy and not lame on Bute, then that’s your solution. But if you cannot, I would call it. Being long term lame with no prospect for recovery is just endlessly being vulnerable and in pain. I bet she brightens when she sees you and you are the happiness in her day - get someone to video her when you are not there. How does she look then? Is she ok? Or is her face drawn?

I had to let one go closer to 15 than 20. She had a long term chronic condition that we had managed well…until her body gave up and nothing worked any more. Lots of sympathy - it is so hard when they haven’t had a long life. I would try daily Bute for now and see if it will give her more time.
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This is exactly my thinking. I'd not hesitate to tell others to pts if permanently lame but she does have good days and she's happy to run around the field. She only needs the danilon on days she's not comfy which is why im not quite there on pts yet.
 
Are you sure her good days are really good? With the very best will in the world it can be hard to see what's really happening in a long slow decline. I speak from experience not from unkindness. There are a couple of photos of one of ours that I now can't look at. He looks miserable in them though I didn't see it at the time.
What is her future?
It's trite but true to say better a day too soon than a moment too late.
I'm sorry to be so negative.
 
I'd be speaking to the vet. Maybe putting her on a month of bute, discussing giving her a strong dose for 2 weeks and then dropping it to a normal dose.
I would not be riding her.
I would try a grass livery or renting land where she could be out all the time.
I wouldn't be sticking with a management style that comprises her happiness and health.
The likely outcome is pts. Sorry.
 
misst said:
Are you sure her good days are really good? With the very best will in the world it can be hard to see what's really happening in a long slow decline. I speak from experience not from unkindness. There are a couple of photos of one of ours that I now can't look at. He looks miserable in them though I didn't see it at the time.
What is her future?
It's trite but true to say better a day too soon than a moment too late.
I'm sorry to be so negative.
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she's happy to interact with her friends, still rolls and canters around the field on good days. On bad days she's visibly tense in her body and movement but never grumpy. She's a real sweet mare but I will always do what's right by her because she's already been let down too many times in her past albeit not deliberately by her previous novice owners.
 
spike123 said:
she's happy to interact with her friends, still rolls and canters around the field on good days. On bad days she's visibly tense in her body and movement but never grumpy. She's a real sweet mare but I will always do what's right by her because she's already been let down too many times in her past albeit not deliberately by her previous novice owners.
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Then you need to make sure that she doesn't have bad days! Either give her danilon/bute every day or pts are your choices, I'm afraid.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Then you need to make sure that she doesn't have bad days! Either give her danilon/bute every day or pts are your choices, I'm afraid.
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I agree, bute everyday. Get a prescription off your vet (around£18-£25) and shop online, best I can find is £79.95 for a box of 100 from Equine Health Direct - apple flavoured bute. Get vet to write 'up to two boxes of 100 x bute' on prescription and then you can use the same prescription within 6 months for another 100.

Looks like Lari is going to be stuck on one a day until I get his coffin joints medicated when I can afford too. I don't mind and now he's been shod fronts, he's moving amazingly and seems very happy.

Get her into a retirement yard but with the proviso you visit at least once a week to ensure she's coping. 😀
.
 
If you really don’t want to PTS then would leave her on danilon / Bute full time to try and reduce / eliminate the bad days. Her issues will deteriorate long before this causes her a problem.

If you don’t think nailing shoes on is an option but she tolerates boots being taken on / off then you could possibly try glue ons (look up easy shoe with mushroom cuffs)

Also you don’t say what model of scoot boot you have. If yours are the “normal” ones that only take a relatively thin pad it may be worth looking at the new Theraride.

Would also agree with looking for somewhere she can live out year round if she hates being stabled.

All that being said the arthritis will continue to progress over time and she will have more bad days and they will become worse.

If she’s already struggling and you can’t get her fully right then PTS would not be wrong. Age is just a number. I’ve had a 15 yr old PTS before and am about to PTS a 9 year old because I was worried about what the future held for their QOL if their issues continued to progress
 
Boulty said:
If you really don’t want to PTS then would leave her on danilon / Bute full time to try and reduce / eliminate the bad days. Her issues will deteriorate long before this causes her a problem.

If you don’t think nailing shoes on is an option but she tolerates boots being taken on / off then you could possibly try glue ons (look up easy shoe with mushroom cuffs)

Also you don’t say what model of scoot boot you have. If yours are the “normal” ones that only take a relatively thin pad it may be worth looking at the new Theraride.

Would also agree with looking for somewhere she can live out year round if she hates being stabled.

All that being said the arthritis will continue to progress over time and she will have more bad days and they will become worse.

If she’s already struggling and you can’t get her fully right then PTS would not be wrong. Age is just a number. I’ve had a 15 yr old PTS before and am about to PTS a 9 year old because I was worried about what the future held for their QOL if their issues continued to progress
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I'm going to discuss with the vet as i know he will tell me straight. She already has danilon for bad days but will put her on one a day and take it from there.
I think as it's taken so long to get her to accept the farrier she will just be seriously stressed by the farrier nailing shoes on. She also is unsure of the noise they make when she hears other shod horses on concrete.
She has the normal scoots which were fitted by a fitter and they didn't feel she'd need pads but here we are a month later and needing the pads in them.
I don't honestly think she'd cope well with being moved and it's incredibly hard as want to do right by her and while pts seems almost a drastic end of the road reaction I know from previous experience how devastating arthritis can be for the horse and ringbone in her case she has gone from sound little over a year ago so has deteriorated quite rapidly. Vet was concerned about joint space at her last coffin joint injection in the less damaged leg so it's definitely been rapid onset as a year ago it was mild in that leg.
I couldn't pass her on to someone to bute up and sell on and I'd worry about her and safety of others because she isn't an easy horse. She has lived a stress free life in a secluded field and over a year of that alone so had to be her own advocate. Her owners then, weren't too experienced and wouldn't have realised that she had any problems. She was literally a pet.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
The trouble is that if she is uncomfortable, that will add to her distress. As a prey animal, she needs to feel able to run away, whenever necessary, she doesn't currently feel able to do that. I would pts, tbh. It would be in her best interests, I feel. I'm sorry.
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I am quoting as this it is exactly what I would have posted .
 
misst said:
Are you sure her good days are really good? With the very best will in the world it can be hard to see what's really happening in a long slow decline. I speak from experience not from unkindness. There are a couple of photos of one of ours that I now can't look at. He looks miserable in them though I didn't see it at the time.
What is her future?
It's trite but true to say better a day too soon than a moment too late.
I'm sorry to be so negative.
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good and bad days. Definitely some days she's feeling good as happy to canter around and play. Lays flat out to sleep in the field and seems to have little issues around getting up or down, but then Ive also seen her going down very carefully and struggling on the turns when moving around so there are still both good and bad days still
 
It is difficult. The one I’m aiming to PTS by end of Summer has coffin & fetlock joint arthritis among other things (the final straw with him is he’s started sometimes losing balance & dropping to his knees during routine foot care & become difficult to trim). I wouldn’t say he has good and bad days so much as good and bad moments… He can look really hesitant & cautious walking along & then 10 minutes later he’s marching off somewhere or cantering to catch up with his friend. (Although in his case I think his better looking moments are when he has something motivating him / providing a bit of adrenaline eg food, a friend he wants to get to)
 
spike123 said:
good and bad days. Definitely some days she's feeling good as happy to canter around and play. Lays flat out to sleep in the field and seems to have little issues around getting up or down, but then Ive also seen her going down very carefully and struggling on the turns when moving around so there are still both good and bad days still
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I'm not sure I'd keep a horse going that was having any issues at all getting up but one of my worst fears is having a horse go down and not be able to get up again.
 
Boulty said:
It is difficult. The one I’m aiming to PTS by end of Summer has coffin & fetlock joint arthritis among other things (the final straw with him is he’s started sometimes losing balance & dropping to his knees during routine foot care & become difficult to trim). I wouldn’t say he has good and bad days so much as good and bad moments… He can look really hesitant & cautious walking along & then 10 minutes later he’s marching off somewhere or cantering to catch up with his friend. (Although in his case I think his better looking moments are when he has something motivating him / providing a bit of adrenaline eg food, a friend he wants to get to)
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yes that's probably similar to her although not falling over thus far
 
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