What to feed this chap with digestive issues?

[Chappie]

Hi, can I please ask your experienced advice on what to feed this boy?

- 14.2hh
- approx 18 year old irish cob
- in light work (hacking and light schooling)
- stabled on shavings
- turnout approx 6 hours a day 4x a week and an hour or so on other days in a 'trash paddock' with a little grass (grass field turnout will sadly change to even less in bad weather/when grass goes)
- yard is a cross between full and part livery and provide hay (or haylage sometimes) 2 x a day.
I provide my own hay in the evenings along with a handful of Thunderbrooks chaff and a scoop of Protexin.

He's my part loan (technically - but I do a lot more and pay for more than the usual part loan agreements) that I've had 4 years in October. Owners are a NON-HORSEY family that own two 14.2hhs whom they bought for their kids who are not really riding anymore and they have never taken much to do with the care side.

Cob developed very loose droppings and gassy liquid a few years ago, which is all over his back end in winter, its a terrible mess.

He's terrified of buckets of water and hoses and very difficult to the point of dangerous about cleaning that area. I can only wash up to the hocks with warm water while he's eating. I spray tail conditioner or Nettex Mud Away to try to keep the dirt off and cut his feather right back on the back legs and tail a bit shorter (owners don't want me to for some reason so I do it a little a week! It's for his health and its horrible to deal with for me and the farrier (and the horse!) so it's for the best.)

It gets much worse in winter and apparently vets investigated but could not determine the cause and the upshot was they put him on the following feed:

- Dengie Healthy Tummy
- dry bran
- Alfa A Oil
- the owners also feed a donkey chaff as they used to feed Mollichaff but the store had ran out, so they got the donkey chaff which contains herbs such as camomille and they noticed he became a bit drier so kept him on that.
They also use Nettex Gut Balancer.
But until I started to give him Protein all year round he was still a terrible mess.

He's had no hard feed since the weather turned good and this is the first summer he has been 95% clean and dry.

But even on Protexin in the relatively mild winter we had it still happened. Perhaps a year or so of being on Protein will help this winter.

Reason for asking advice on the feed is that the above doesn't prevent the loose droppings (we're talking cow-pats/liquid manure pouring out) so wondered if there's anything better he could be on.

The owners pay for the feed so if I can help them save money and improve the situation then that would be great all round. They make up really big bags of feed.

He put on a lot of condition earlier this year to the point of fat and of course it caused a lot of problems. I rugged him too well and gave too much hay and feed and the winter was not that bad. I've learnt a VERY harsh lesson. With a LOT of exercise and pulling back on feeding I've got him back to a good weight. I never want to go through that again so need to maintain his weight as is.

When the temperature drops the liquid poo starts but I want to hold off rugging for as long as posible to keep the weight down. He seems to need a rug though when its cold as without the poo is worse.

I buy Thunderbrooks chaff, Top Chop Zero/Lite, Readi Grass and Halleys feed blocks and give him a little of these with a small (less than 8kg) soaked net in the evenings as the yard's hay can be gone by 4pm and is not given again till 730am. Sometimes I run low on hay (but never out) before next delivery (I can only store 6-8 bales in my garden shed) so its useful to spin out the hay with other forage.

Any constructive advice gratefully recieved (sorry for long post but had to get relevant info in there). They can't move yards at the moment and its a relatively rural area so yards are VERY few and far between. Also no suitable fields to rent. So I'm trying my best for the horse in the situation that I have.

 

[JillA]

Check him against this for gastric and intestinal ulcers. https://equinenutritionnerd.com/201...tions-for-stomach-ulcer-treatment-prevention/ There is something badly wrong with his GIT if a probiotic isn't helping and the most common issue is ulcers. And if they are present in the intestines scoping won't find them - something to line the gut (Slippery elm for instance), something to boost the gut bacteria such as a probiotic (or even live yoghurt) and maybe some Nexium would be the way to go if he is positive against any of the diagnostic tests on there. And may be worth trying anyway - being grumpy (about water etc) can be a presenting symptom if he is in constant pain or discomfort.

Being without food for lengthy periods (after hay is finished and without straw bedding to nibble) is a common cause as the acid in the gut causes damage when there is nothing to absorb it

 

[be positive]

I would think about giving no hard feed, he has been fine without it all summer, is obviously a fairly good doer so why give a feed which may be contributing to the issue, the yard sounds like the main cause as they are barely offering the minimum requirements and are certainly not providing good quality care if they restrict turnout and give so little hay in the evening it has gone by 4 pm, to my mind that is negligence and adding to his stress, yes you are giving him more but I would also be concerned with how much he gets at 7 am to last him during the day.

He could well have ulcers but if the management doesn't change they will come back even if treated, I feel for you and would suggest a serious chat with the owner about finding a decent yard with better standards of care, they could well save money even if it seems more expensive, the saving on additional feed, supplements and potential vets bills could balance it out, they may also end up with a happier horse and sharer.

 

[Leo Walker]

If you have no choice then I'd swap him over to pinkmash. It has the full dose of protexin in it, and everything seems to do well on it. If I had to I'd give that mixed with the thunderbrooks chaff and the topspec zero, and mix a big tub trug up and as much hay as you can manage. Its balancing feed with weight gain though. I've previously done that for things that need to gain weight.

Really though I'd want him to have as much hay as he needed to have a tiny bit left the next morning and then just a small feed of pink mash, salt and something like equimins complete. Although I'd give him a week on just the pink mash and hay and nothing else and see if that helps before adding the balancer in in case it has an adverse effect.

I'd take everything else out. To feed my similar size cob ad lib hay overnight usually works out about 2.5 bales a week, so its not enormous amounts. Another option could be high fibre haylage. It comes in plastic bags so can be stored outside. It will work out slightly more expensive, but may be easier to manage. And you will know its low sugar and high fibre, which is something you dont know with hay unless you pay to have it tested. As this coincides with winter I'd be concerned that all the different types of food isnt helping.

The research shows that having no hay over night is significantly less of a risk for ulcers than having no forage in the day time. Its not something I'm comfortable with, but lots and lots of horses manage on a routine like that with no issues, so theres something else going on with yours. With that in mind i'd also have a different vet. I've known a few like this and its needed a course of steriods and antibiotics to clear it up. Its not ok for the vet to say they dont know whats causing it and then wash their hands of the issue.

 

[daydreamer]

Have a look online - does it sound like faecal water syndrome? I think they have found herd dynamics have a role in that so if he is on individual turnout that might be affecting him. Does he get more hay in the winter - some can't cope with long fibre so that might be setting him off?

 

[Chappie]

Thank you all for replying to my OP and apologies for taking so long to get back to you. I appreciate your advice and have taken some time to look into the points raised.

Horse is otherwise in good health eg. not thin, shiney coat, bright and alert etc. None of the other horses on the yard are fat or thin or have ridden behavior problems related to food. In fact mine is too heavy compared to a lot of them. But no, I don't agree with the management regime.

Potentially he could be moved to a different yard/living situation in future. For now I need to manage with what situation we are in.

If/when they do move the horses it will be to the top of the county where the owners live; they don't want to move them if it's more difficult for them to get to them.
There's nowhere else possible near where they are kept now, not even a suitable farm field. I won't be able to keep in contact due to my work and commute and time issues. So I would have to give up the loan and effectively give up horses altogether for the foreseeable. Just because of the yard situation, of which I can't share more about on here.

If I could be CERTAIN they would be very well cared for I would be happy for the horses sake but I can't be certain. The owners don't know even basic care and don't seem interested in learning. They don't have time but equally don't seem to be able to afford proper full livery. They can't just put them in a field somewhere and go visit occasionally like they do now! Just cos they will have grass and a bath full of rain water doesn't mean they're ok! I'm not on the same page as them care-wise at all. Really they need an experienced and helpful yard owner.

I've even looked into moving to where they are but then my commute to work will be too difficult.

It is a balancing act with the forage as he has put on weight. I gave him a small handful of Pink Mash with Thunderbrooks over winter and it seems to help firm up the manure but it's along with a scoop of Protexin as well and he put weight on. I'll start it up again when the temperature drops but will make the handful VERY small.

If he's out he goes out at 730 and comes in between 2 & 3 to hay.
If he's in he gets hay at 730am - he's finished it before 10, then gets more at 1pm. He finishes that about 4 then I arrive at 630-7pm and exercise then he has his feed the owners supply (in winter) or the small feed I supply, then a haynet while I groom/muck out/do yard chores. The hay probably lasts him till 11pm judging by what's left when I leave. So I try and makes sure he is not long without something to eat.

 

[meleeka]

Which Protexin is he on? I’ve changed mine from Gut Balancer to Acid Ease and she’s finally cured which is a huge relief as I’ve had the same problem for many years.

 

[Chappie]

Thank you Meleeka that's really interesting and worth trying. I've been using the Gut Balancer.

 

[JillA]

Could you buy in some clean dust free oat or barley straw for him to nibble when his hay is finished? Leave a net full in his box, surely the yard couldn't have a problem with that?

 

[Chappie]

I will ask my farmer who brings my hay - he can only bring 6 bales at a time - but I think I'd rather give more hay but soak it and buy in some straw chaff. As he was taken off straw bed due to a colic episode years ago. It's difficult enough to get hay in small batches round here. So not sure if I could get oat/barley straw. But thanks, its worth looking into.

I've ordered Acid Ease today.

Thinking of asking owners what their plans would be without me. ie would they be motivated to move them to a better situation. Drastic but there are so many problems going on.

 

[windand rain]

Have you had him on sandy soil the old livery we have has a similar problem the cure was a diet including psyllium, Equidgel and pink mash. Thought we were going to lose him last year but he rallied when I put him on this diet havent dropped the pink mash yet but the equidgel has made a huge difference trouble is he will onlly eat it as a dryish feed so needs the pink mash and a bit of alfalfa to dry it up enough for him to eat it. He is not keen on sloppy food. Hay is his usual trigger for the runny gut but have ordered him some more psyllium in case it is our sandy soil causing a sandpaper like affect on his guts

 

[SEL]

Now his weight is down does he need soaked hay? I've known a few with dodgy tummies do better on dry. I also use the Halleys fibre blocks for entertainment.

You're in a very difficult situation and I really feel for you.