What would be considered over-rugging for a TB?

[CrimsonDivine]

Hey guys. I own a TB x Arab, who I would like to say is looking great at the moment! I'm more surprised because this time last year, and the year before, he was around 2/5 on body score and around 365-385. Well, this year his body score is most definitely 3, keeping an eye on his weight in case he gets too fat if there was such a thing lol... And his weight on the tape is approximately 421! He's got a nice thick coat. Not shivering, seems to be doing ok. However... last night there were forecast gusts of up to 25mph so I got a little worried and threw his medium/heavyweight on without the neck to keep the wind off. I had a hard time trying to decide what was best as I know he's been out where the temperature has been just above freezing, no wind, and he's been fine without his rug.

There was one time where it was sunny in the morning and thus I took his rug off but that afternoon it unexpectedly snowed and he was rolling around in it having a great time! lol.

So.. my question is exactly as the topic suggests; What would be considered over-rugging such a breed?
I'm going to assume that ideally, you shouldn't leave their rug off if there's high wind, heavy rain, etc especially during the cold nights where the temperature hits freezing but so long as their in good shape, and weight, and not shivering all the time then he's fine to have it off?
I did search Google over this matter of concern and yet find a very indifferent debate. Heck, even I'm indifferent about this topic myself as I have often argued the case with people where they have do-gooders rugged up to their eyeballs on a calm night, which makes no sense to me. Though in line sight this is a different breed thus not really the same.

 

[ihatework]

Well it’s not an exact science. Irrespective of the breed you get horses that are hot horses and some that feel the cold. You need to go by eye really. But FWIW, I would expect the majority of working blood types who are unclipped/part clipped to be in no less than a MW during this very recent change to cold/windy.
Fully clipped maybe an extra layer.
But 2 weeks ago it was unseasonably mild so less then

 

[ycbm]

Whatever rugs make the horse too hot. Feel the armpit area, not the ears.

Breed is irrelevant, I know of ex racers who have lived out unrugged all year.
.

 

[teddy_]

Swings and roundabouts ?‍ one Thoroughbred I had would never really feel as toasty as I'd like, but my current horse was clammy under a 200g the other day, fully clipped!

 

[Goldenstar]

It depends on the horse some like to be kept cool others defiantly are miserable if kept cool in bad weather and prefer to be hot it’s about knowing each horse .
I always rug on the side of cool at first and then learn what each horse needs .
H one of our ID’s can’t bare to be cold .

 

[jnb]

My chunky HW cob has a grown out Irish clip and today is in a full neck MW (220g)
Mostly this winter however he's been in a 40/70g with a 100g if very wet.
I'd expect something with some TB blood to need a MW to be honest maybe a 100g when warmer/dry. Mum's Tb x is in a 100g combo (unclipped and 32 years old this year). If it snows he will have his 220g on, he has a huge shelter and his paddock is out of the wind though.

 

[CrimsonDivine]

Well it’s not an exact science. Irrespective of the breed you get horses that are hot horses and some that feel the cold. You need to go by eye really. But FWIW, I would expect the majority of working blood types who are unclipped/part clipped to be in no less than a MW during this very recent change to cold/windy.
Fully clipped maybe an extra layer.
But 2 weeks ago it was unseasonably mild so less then

So basically what you're saying is it's very relative even when it comes to horses of the same breed? This I can concur. However, I have had people who own horses yelling at me in the past Winter "get his rug on!" when imo he didn't need it. Granted, he did look a bit underweight but as we all know; thoroughbreds don't keep weight on and thus do often look worse for wear even when they don't seem to be bothered by the cold. At least this is what I found from my observation.

Just noticed more replies since this quote and seems most of you say it's relative, which is fair, I can most certainly agree with this. Just wanted to be sure I was doing the right thing as people have the tendency to bother me about such matters and get me concerned about whether I'm doing the right thing or not. Though I guess I should stop doubting and questioning myself and just do what's best for him really. Thanks, guys, this has helped a bit at least.

On another note; this is the second time he's had his rug on during Autumn/Winter and yet he's looking better than ever and I haven't really changed much except better field/herd ratio, if you can even call it a herd as there's only him and a pony for companionship on a 3.5 acre field, for grazing and ad-lib hay. Same hard feed and the same amount of it as last year.

 

[ihatework]

So basically what you're saying is it's very relative even when it comes to horses of the same breed? This I can concur. However, I have had people who own horses yelling at me in the past Winter "get his rug on!" when imo he didn't need it. Granted, he did look a bit underweight but as we all know; thoroughbreds don't keep weight on and thus do often look worse for wear even when they don't seem to be bothered by the cold. At least this is what I found from my observation.

On another note; this is the second time he's had his rug on during Autumn/Winter and yet he's looking better than ever and I haven't really changed much except better field/herd ratio for grazing and ad lib hay. Same hard feed and the same amount as last year.

Your answering your own question.
To keep a horse fit and healthy they need to conserve an equal amount of calories than they use. If they are underweight they need more. This doesn’t just come from hard feed. Hay generates body heat. Rugging conserves body heat. If the horse is sufficiently warm it’s not using its energy reserves to keep body weight.

Feed hay and conserve heat by rugging. The more hay, the less rugging in theory. Realistically it’s a combo of both.

If you have a poor body condition horse in winter then something in the management is wrong and I’m not surprised people were telling you to put a rug on.

 

[CrimsonDivine]

Your answering your own question.
To keep a horse fit and healthy they need to conserve an equal amount of calories than they use. If they are underweight they need more. This doesn’t just come from hard feed. Hay generates body heat. Rugging conserves body heat. If the horse is sufficiently warm it’s not using its energy reserves to keep body weight.

Feed hay and conserve heat by rugging. The more hay, the less rugging in theory. Realistically it’s a combo of both.

If you have a poor body condition horse in winter then something in the management is wrong and I’m not surprised people were telling you to put a rug on.

Be as it may it helps to hear from others and discuss such matters to get some insight and reassurance. So thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences on this with me. It may seem like I know generally what I'm doing and that I generally know the answer to my own questions but I really do appreciate the feedback on these things as sometimes I'm still uncertain myself, despite the fact.

Infact I can even agree that perhaps management was wrong and now that it has improved he is showing this with his outcome, which is great. Although IMO some people are just plain ignorant when shouting "put a rug on" rather than looking at the overall problem and perhaps discussing that with me but whatever, I digress.

Again, thank you all for your responses, it has been most helpful.

 

[Birker2020]

I keep my horse in 100g rug at night when its around 2-6c and probably 200g at night if it falls below 2c. If its over 6c he has a thermatex rip off rug on.

He is a WB who is unclipped as he's out of work at the moment.

In the day he goes out usually in a 100g rug when its cold, occasionally this would be increased to 200g if its near minus temperatures. If its 11c+ he goes out in his 50g turnout rug.

 

[CrimsonDivine]

I keep my horse in 100g rug at night when its around 2-6c and probably 200g at night if it falls below 2c. If its over 6c he has a thermatex rip off rug on.

He is a WB who is unclipped as he's out of work at the moment.

In the day he goes out usually in a 100g rug when its cold, occasionally this would be increased to 200g if its near minus temperatures. If its 11c+ he goes out in his 50g turnout rug.

See now I would consider this over rugging myself but that;'s my viewpoint. As discussed, and agreed, it's relative to the horse so I could be wrong here. I just don't think it's necessary to have a rug on at 11c+ Heck, in Arabia their nights in winter can drop to around this point and the horses are fine with that. With this considered I wouldn't rug unless I felt it was necessary and IMO this isn't. Below freezing, high winds and rain is one thing, generally low temperature rise another. Again this is just my view on this, doesn't make me right or wrong.

Felt a need to respond and give my criticism so people get the gist of my views and way of thinking as well as trying to be constructive here. Thank you birker for your response.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

If I had any horse with a condition score of 3 living out unclipped I would still rug it because to me the horse is struggling to maintain a healthy weight especially if its getting extra forage.

 

[Flowerofthefen]

I've got an old unclipped retired w/b. He doesn't grow any sort of coat. Today it was 16mph winds and bright sunshine 4 degrees, he was out in a 250g with a hood. Just nicely warm. I also have a ridden tb fully clipped, he was out today in 350g. Both look great. Dr David Marlin suggests you feel for how warm your horse is by placing your hand under the rug by their withers and leave it a little while. Obviously don't take gloves off and stick your hand straight under! I've done this a few years now and seems about right!

 

[CrimsonDivine]

If I had any horse with a condition score of 3 living out unclipped I would still rug it because to me the horse is struggling to maintain a healthy weight especially if its getting extra forage.

I wouldn't call it struggling, more like a great improvement and this is also considered to be healthy so struggling to maintain a healthy weight at 421kg 3/5 body score? I think not. Infact I'm often looking at him wondering whether he's borderline for 3.5 as I can't even see nor barely feel his ribs so he could end up being a 4 if I'm not careful, which is not ideal. However, maintenance is key and as long as he maintains this then I'm not too worried. Baring in mind that Winter has just started and he may, most likely, lose some weight due to that. Which I might add is quite normal and if he's showing a bit of rib by end of Winter that's quite normal too.

As far as I'm concerned a healthy horse, or at least where thoroughbreds are concerned, should be their average weight come Autumn or late Summer, so for him that would be around 400kg and anything between 400-450 is most certainly a bonus and body score of 3-3.5 during Autumn, 3-2.5 coming out of Autumn and then the cycle will continue going back up to 3 and slightly over. Heck you could even get away with 2 but that's a grey line really. Horses should and do need to lose weight in Winter to make room for Spring and Summer, bear that in mind.

Just so you guys know, this thread is mainly questioning over-rugging over "needing to be rugged". Also, this was more for discussion over the matter so I can and will respond and may not always agree with some things said.

As far as I'm concerned; if your horse is body score of 3 and the weather is mildly fine then ya don't need to rug, unless there are other things to consider such as if they don't maintain weight or that they're clipped or that they're worked or whatever the reason may be, heck it could even be because they're old and feel the cold worse than they did in their younger years.
These factors I get and understand, I wanted to know more about where the grey line is when it comes to a thoroughbred as it seems most seem to be hooked on "they must be rugged". Some will also argue that no, they don't need to be rugged as much and horses can vary from one to another, despite their breed. I more agree with the latter than the former but this topic is often debated and you can never get a straight answer. Infact the best answer I've had so far is the ones in this thread suggesting that it's relative to the horse. Heck, ycbm was bald enough to say "breed is irrelevant" which I found most intriguing. To a degree, yes it is, but then again, as said, horses can indeed vary even within the same breed, and thus to a degree it isn't relevant. I feel it is relevant to a degree as some factors of a certain breed are based on a common trait. ie huskies in dogs are well known for being energetic and it has been said that they need more exercise than other breeds. But you may well find one that is reluctant to go out or is very lazy and doesn't run around as much when they do. This could be due to underlining issues or just the nature of that particular dog. Anyway.. I may seem to be digressing here but the point is that just because it applies to one, or maybe even a few, doesn't mean it applies to all, right?

I've got an old unclipped retired w/b. He doesn't grow any sort of coat. Today it was 16mph winds and bright sunshine 4 degrees, he was out in a 250g with a hood. Just nicely warm. I also have a ridden tb fully clipped, he was out today in 350g. Both look great. Dr David Marlin suggests you feel for how warm your horse is by placing your hand under the rug by their withers and leave it a little while. Obviously don't take gloves off and stick your hand straight under! I've done this a few years now and seems about right!

What do you mean by don't take gloves off? I'm assuming because your hands will be warm before you checked which may jade your judgment? Because to me you should check with your bare hands so I'm slightly confused here. However, either way I do agree that checking your horse under-rug is definitely a good way to go if you think that they might be too hot. By the way, I took my horse's rug off today. Temperature 5°c, Wind 9mph gust 12mph. He seems fine and the sunshine will do him some good IMO. Infact before I left, about 2 hours later, I went to pet him and his fur was quite warm, probably due to the sun, and he wasn't shivering so... eh? Again the question was more toward "what is considered over-rugging for a TB?" Frankly, I consider "over-rugging" in general when it's not required, ie if there's no rain, no heavy wind, horse is not underweight and is not showing signs of feeling cold ie excessive shivers. Bare in mind that it is also normal for horses to shiver a little bit as this is to build up heat and use up fat reserves if necessary. This is why healthy to slightly chubby end Autumn is ideal for the upcoming Winter. Of course if we can't provide the horse with adequate forage, and feed, in order to achieve this then we have to compensate and find other means to keep them warm. Another factor mentioned in this thread is maintenance and management are key to a healthy and happy horse during those colder times, as well as other times of the year of course. This is why rugging and over-rugging is so widely debated I think.

 

[ester]

My horse has never been in arabia though But I suspect it's less likely to piss down with rain.

(50g can be better than no fills in some circumstances as no fill can keep dry (if ££ rugs) but do flatten the coat. If not a ££ the fill can help with the rain not getting through either.

Some TBs live out the winter with no rug on and decent shelter and are quite happy, others are not and there's a myriad of reasons why one might rug a horse more or less than others think.

I do find when they are unclipped I've found it harder to gauge their temperature- just because they are so well insulated.

 

[Goldenstar]

If I had any horse with a condition score of 3 living out unclipped I would still rug it because to me the horse is struggling to maintain a healthy weight especially if its getting extra forage.

Most people score out of 5 and a three is a horse in the correct weight range .

 

[[153312]]

Horses for courses really

No one can tell you how to rug without seeing the horse.

But an underweight horse or one prone to dropping weight will need assistance keeping warm, whether with extra forage/more calorific forage and/or rugging.

2 is fairly underweight so I'm not surprised people were telling you to rug. 3 is about right though with a poor doer it's sometimes better to have them heading into winter with a bit of extra covering IMHO.

 

[CrimsonDivine]

Horses for courses really

No one can tell you how to rug without seeing the horse.

But an underweight horse or one prone to dropping weight will need assistance keeping warm, whether with extra forage/more calorific forage and/or rugging.

2 is fairly underweight so I'm not surprised people were telling you to rug. 3 is about right though with a poor doer it's sometimes better to have them heading into winter with a bit of extra covering IMHO.

I agree, I'm not really that surprised either. Though the way they came across it was rather aggressive and abrupt. It was often suggested that they could have addressed me in a better manner and discussed what was going on with him rather than rudely attack me with vulgar language, inwhich they did so openly whilst riding down a bridleway next to our field. Anyway... This, of course, has had a knock-on effect on me, and thus I worry about my horse, probably more than I should, due to it. I personally think he's looking better than ever this year, and I am going to take pride in that as I've come a long way with him in the past 3 years, as minor as it may seem, and the outcome surely has shown that making necessary adjustments has improved his health. It was also often mentioned, by Animal Welfare and Vets, that due to him being so young as well as his breed, that being 2-3 body score was quite normal and they simply said to make sure he improves next year. Which he has so I am definitely happy and glad of that.

However, I still beg to question the fact; ok, so what is over-rugging and does the same thing apply to this breed? To me it really should and horses weight and stature can most certainly vary for many reasons. Infact it was often suggested that thoroughbreds, like whippets and greyhounds in dogs, are naturally lean and thus will look underweight in comparison to a cob but again this would be considered normal and healthy as this is the nature of their breed.

Hell, I even recall the topic of overweight horses and ponies being discussed and found many forums and websites stating this has been a raise of concern as many horse owners have become too accustomed that a fat horse is infact a healthy horse and lean is unhealthy. This isn't entirely true and is widely debated. There is most certainly a grey line here. All I can say is; know your horse, as I'm sure most of you do. That to me is the most important as with that surely you can't go wrong.

 

[SEL]

I rode in Jordan on arabs one winter and the guides did throw rugs on them overnight when it was freezing (not my best camping experience). That was dry cold and they had ad lib forage but even so I think all but one got a blanket. They were in hard work, on the lean side - greyhound fit - & the guides didn't want them getting tight muscles by shivering when they had a full day's work to do.

It is all about the individual though. Tonight I'll have one draft horse who will be naked in minus 5, a native pony who will be in 100g and a part bred draft in 400g.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Most people score out of 5 and a three is a horse in the correct weight range .

Ok fair enough I was judging on a score of 1 to 10 its very hard to give advice on such a thing without seeing the horse in front of you.

My 2 are well covered so I tend to under rug them and they get plenty of hay in winter so they don't ever seem to be cold.

 

[criso]

I had 2 Tbs.

Tb #1 very good doer, needed a grazing muzzle in summer, unclipped as retired, thick fluffy but soft coat. Rainsheet most of the time. Mw if very cold. Only time he had a heavyweight was when he was out 24/7 and snowing. He could get rain scald if left completely naked hence the rainsheet.

Tb#2 out in the day, in at night. Tendancy to drop weight, very fine silky coat when unclipped. However a hot horse. Currently in a mw out in the field but has been in a rainsheet when we've had mild days. Goes into a heavyweight when it's like the weather is now and he is clipped, hunter clip. In the stable at night has 100g quilt on mild nights and 200g when it's really cold. This will go up to 200g/350g when clipped.

 

[[153312]]

This discussion is going round in circles. Over rugging is putting on more rugs than needed or rugging when the animal would be quite capable of regulating its temp for itself. It's possible to do to any horse, regardless of its breed.
Thoroughbreds are less chunky than cobs but a bsc of 2 is underweight in any horse.

If it was that thin, it needed a rug on and/or a greater quantity and/or more calorific forage because stuff was being done wrong.

 

[sportsmansB]

I'm not sure why you are asking this question when you seem to have all the answers.. However my TB cross won't even go out in the field in this weather despite wearing a 350g rug with a sheet under it, he returns to his stable in protest.
My last almost full TB would have happily lived out in the worst of weather but she did so in a 400g rug with a neck and that kept her condition on.

'over rugging' is when the horse is too warm. that is it, no mystery or secret to it. Some may not be too cold but may need more food to keep condition, some may be cold and need rugged and more food to keep condition. Its a judgement call by individual horse, not by breed. Age would be just as important.

 

[AmyMay]

However, I have had people who own horses yelling at me in the past Winter "get his rug on!" when imo he didn't need it. Granted, he did look a bit underweight but as we all know; thoroughbreds don't keep weight on and thus do often look worse for wear even when they don't seem to be bothered by the cold.

Having had Thoroughbreds myself, I don’t agree that they ‘don’t keep weight on’ during the winter, or that they often look worse for wear. Chances are you were being yelled at because your horse was looking underweight, and would have benefited from a rug.

But I digress. As said up thread. It’s horses for courses. My little Welsh mare always needed a rug in winter as she ran cold. One of my TB’s (whilst I did rug lightly), didn’t particularly need rugging as he was generally a hot horse. However for ease of care he always wore something in the winter.

 

[WaterySun852]

I've not read all the replies so please excuse me if this had already been said. I Hate Work's first comment ime isn't wrong, rugging isn't breed specific, as Goldenstar pointed out, she has an ID who hates the cold, whereas mine hates rugs and I've two tb's who wear different weights in the same weather conditions. As I'm sure you've read in other rug threads just go by the horse in front you ?

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

The thing is what someone thinks is underweight someone else will find that weight acceptable.

 

[ownedbyaconnie]

Also depends on natural shelter. I recently moved from Surrey to North Yorkshire. Connemara pony has the same clip but whereas down south she didn’t wear a rug once over winter she has done here because she no longer has a hedge line to hide behind and our new yard is very exposed so gets very windy.

 

[sbloom]

Lucinda McApline keeps mainly TBs/WBs if I remember correctly and they are worked to a decent level, never rugged or clipped, 24/7 turnout. I'm sure they have good cover in the fields.

 

[[153312]]

Looking back through some of op's past posts I think they're probably a troll

 

[Flowerofthefen]

I wouldn't call it struggling, more like a great improvement and this is also considered to be healthy so struggling to maintain a healthy weight at 421kg 3/5 body score? I think not. Infact I'm often looking at him wondering whether he's borderline for 3.5 as I can't even see nor barely feel his ribs so he could end up being a 4 if I'm not careful, which is not ideal. However, maintenance is key and as long as he maintains this then I'm not too worried. Baring in mind that Winter has just started and he may, most likely, lose some weight due to that. Which I might add is quite normal and if he's showing a bit of rib by end of Winter that's quite normal too.

As far as I'm concerned a healthy horse, or at least where thoroughbreds are concerned, should be their average weight come Autumn or late Summer, so for him that would be around 400kg and anything between 400-450 is most certainly a bonus and body score of 3-3.5 during Autumn, 3-2.5 coming out of Autumn and then the cycle will continue going back up to 3 and slightly over. Heck you could even get away with 2 but that's a grey line really. Horses should and do need to lose weight in Winter to make room for Spring and Summer, bear that in mind.

Just so you guys know, this thread is mainly questioning over-rugging over "needing to be rugged". Also, this was more for discussion over the matter so I can and will respond and may not always agree with some things said.

As far as I'm concerned; if your horse is body score of 3 and the weather is mildly fine then ya don't need to rug, unless there are other things to consider such as if they don't maintain weight or that they're clipped or that they're worked or whatever the reason may be, heck it could even be because they're old and feel the cold worse than they did in their younger years.
These factors I get and understand, I wanted to know more about where the grey line is when it comes to a thoroughbred as it seems most seem to be hooked on "they must be rugged". Some will also argue that no, they don't need to be rugged as much and horses can vary from one to another, despite their breed. I more agree with the latter than the former but this topic is often debated and you can never get a straight answer. Infact the best answer I've had so far is the ones in this thread suggesting that it's relative to the horse. Heck, ycbm was bald enough to say "breed is irrelevant" which I found most intriguing. To a degree, yes it is, but then again, as said, horses can indeed vary even within the same breed, and thus to a degree it isn't relevant. I feel it is relevant to a degree as some factors of a certain breed are based on a common trait. ie huskies in dogs are well known for being energetic and it has been said that they need more exercise than other breeds. But you may well find one that is reluctant to go out or is very lazy and doesn't run around as much when they do. This could be due to underlining issues or just the nature of that particular dog. Anyway.. I may seem to be digressing here but the point is that just because it applies to one, or maybe even a few, doesn't mean it applies to all, right?



What do you mean by don't take gloves off? I'm assuming because your hands will be warm before you checked which may jade your judgment? Because to me you should check with your bare hands so I'm slightly confused here. However, either way I do agree that checking your horse under-rug is definitely a good way to go if you think that they might be too hot. By the way, I took my horse's rug off today. Temperature 5°c, Wind 9mph gust 12mph. He seems fine and the sunshine will do him some good IMO. Infact before I left, about 2 hours later, I went to pet him and his fur was quite warm, probably due to the sun, and he wasn't shivering so... eh? Again the question was more toward "what is considered over-rugging for a TB?" Frankly, I consider "over-rugging" in general when it's not required, ie if there's no rain, no heavy wind, horse is not underweight and is not showing signs of feeling cold ie excessive shivers. Bare in mind that it is also normal for horses to shiver a little bit as this is to build up heat and use up fat reserves if necessary. This is why healthy to slightly chubby end Autumn is ideal for the upcoming Winter. Of course if we can't provide the horse with adequate forage, and feed, in order to achieve this then we have to compensate and find other means to keep them warm. Another factor mentioned in this thread is maintenance and management are key to a healthy and happy horse during those colder times, as well as other times of the year of course. This is why rugging and over-rugging is so widely debated I think.

So sorry, just re read post!! I meant to say take gloves off a little while before checking horse so your hands aren't warm!!