What would you do with this horse?

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zoon

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Ok, sit back and relax as this might ramble on a bit.

My 14 yo WB is a star, not perfect in any sense, but he's pretty simple to ride and tries his little heart out. I've had him since he was 10 and previously he hunted and evented. I now jump him, do the odd dressage test and a little bit of everything else. He's a lovely all rounder and I'd never sell him.

The problem is he is so bloody strong! To be honest I'd a little pea on the back of a barrel, but he's safe and honest and never have I felt out of control. He'll jump a nice steady course and go from a full pelt gallop out hacking to a nice steady walk, but by god my arms come out of my shoulders in the process!

It's not like he's pulling, it's like he is really hard in the mouth. He's always been like that and I though with schooling and work to strengthen him up he'd become lighter, but no such luck! When I'm riding I feel like he is pulling my arms out and I'm "holding him up" but to be honest I'm not sure if he's leaning - if we have a really hard session and he's knackered he'll lean and it literally pulls me out of the saddle (17hh big built WB and a 5'2 lady and you get the picture). I feel like he is just wanting the firm contact - when I work him on a longer rein he will stretch down and seek that firm contact again.

I have a bit of an obsession with snaffles - I think that most horses should be able to be ridden in a snaffle of some sort so I've tried my hardest not to just bit him up. Plus I want to do a bit of dressage so need to be able to ride him in smething dressage leagl without the risk of dislocating my arms. I've tried -
a loose ring single jointed
a french link full cheek
a full cheek demi anky
a full cheek waterford
a cherry roller
a mullen happy mouth
a loose ring lozenge
a verbindend
a hanging cheek myler comfort

and all have pretty much the same result - goes fine (single jointed not as good as he has a low palate) but heavy in the hand.

on the non dressage legal route we've tried -
myler short shank combi
english cherry roller gag
single joint english gag
single jointed pelham
waterford
cherry roller pelham
tom thumb
a high ported myler with cheeks
dutch gag (mullen and single joint)
copper roller d snaffle
german hackamore

hackamore he went lovely in but I am not 100% confident with it as I don't want to misuse it. Best he's gone in have been the cherry roller bits but they come as single jointed and he can throw his head up sometimes in it.

Basically I want some bit advise/someone to tell me to stop being silly and get him out of a snaffle because I'm going to ruin his mouth even more by hauling him about in a snaffle rather than using something stronger advice/schooling advice to lighten him in the hand or something else entirely - I am really not sure! Thnking maybe go down the hackamore route, but I'm a bit scared to. And if I end up with another non-dressage legal bit what do I do about dressage tests?

fish finger sandwiches for all those who got to the end
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*whispers very quietly as I'm becoming very boring on the subject*

If he went well in the hackamore (bitless), probably because he had nothing to lean on, could you try another type of bitless bridle that you felt more confident with?

I appreciate it is not dressage legal, so a bit of a pain there.
 
Well, I wouldn't hesitate to use something like a pelham on him for your non dressage days. There's nothing wrong with a strong bit, only the hands that may abuse them.
 
Initial thoughts - are you sure there is no physical problem causing the leaning etc.? Given some of the bits you have tried, i am surprised he's still managed to lean, but perhaps missed out on decent schooling as a youngster so doesn't know any better. If he goes ok in hackamore I'd carry on with that, or try a Dr cooks bitless. You are aware how careful you have to be with these, so doubt you'd abuse one through lack of knowledge. Failing that you could try a KK or NS Universal bit with leather curb strap. Lots of 'difficult' horses like these for some reason.
Good luck!
 
Umm, bitting is always difficult, and you often find yourself trying everything there is to offer only to realise that the first was the best!
My first thoughts about this is the fact that you say he was lovely in the hackamore...ok, does this mean he is uncomfy in his mouth? Does he have ulcers, sharp teeth etc.. or maybe he has a large tongue so finds 'holding' a bit difficult. I have found that a straight bar rubber snaffle with a drop noseband works wonders on my little horse, but yours is 2 hands bigger!
Riding should not be a pulling match and your arms and shoulders should not ache. If going very dressagey try a double bridle to get him off your hand, only need a few 20mins sessions and you might find it makes all the difference! (or maybe allow a man to try him and remind him riders are boss??)
Good luck
 
Yes sally I agree - I feel awful for pulling on him in a snaffle, but can't get over my snaffle obsession! Problem I have with the pelham etc it that he hates a single joint and can throw his head about. A waterford I felt I had no control in (but maybe a waterford pelham would be different), a mullen mouth causes him to open his mouth up (and I loathe to strap it shut as he must be opening it for a reason). Maybe I'll try a double jointed pelham????

Anyone thing of any schooling exercises as I'll need to ride him in a snaffle now and then for dressage ad even a 2min test can leave me with significantly longer arms!

Am I allowed to warm up for BD in a pelham for instance and swap to a snaffle for the test?
 
have you tried having a word with the people from Neue Scheule about it. they may be able to advise better. I have a 17.2 warmblood and although am taller than you I had a similar porblem with mine sometimes. they can get strong but mine would only go in a french snaffle as the action of a single joint was not good and is not in most warmbloods just depends on how much room he has in his mouth. Have you tried half halting nd let go to stop him leaning or some lessons. mine would always stop but yes cross country would be storng but somthing you learnt to live with as he would hate anything else more than his french link. be aware that the head throwing/putting head up may be an indication that he doesnt like the action of the bit. I would be tempted to have a word with an expert and poss have a few lessons with a good trainer poss a dressage.
 
I am bemused by anyone who has an obsession with snaffles, I simply go with the bit which suits the horse - and me!

If he isn't buggering off then do you actually need a contact at all..
If you pull my mare she'll pull back much harder so has been taught to do everything just off the leg & seat, makes life a lot easier. Are you sure you aren't the strong one?
 
Should have mentioned teeth done every 5-6 months and were done only 3 weeks ago - no problems. Back checked every 3-4months by my chiro and saddle is a WOW adjusted about every 3-6 months depending on how he is going and any changes in weight. Saddle was done only a couple of months back and no weight changes, but back due for a check. But since I do everything so regularly (I'm a bit OTT) he very rarely has any issues. Chiro is coming out asap for his check up.

He's always ridden in a drop noseband - bit fleshy tongue and cheeks mean he gets ulcers inside his mouth from any noseband going over them to dentist recommended a grackle or a drop.

Drop and straight bar happy mouth were again ok, but he pulled my arms out and strained to open his mouth as I assume the mullen mouth squashed his big tongue
 
Like I said if you loosen the contact he just stretches down into it to seek that firm contact. Even with reins at the buckle end he'll reach down to pick up the contact. If anything I've alway been told I don't have a strong enough contact, but with this horse I and having my arms lengthend by a couple of inches each ride - might start looking like an ape soon!
 
Funny but before I got to the end of your list I thought bitless. I had a sidepull made for one of my horses.

I know nothing of bitting but a strong horse is exhausting to ride.
 
Since others have now mentioned it. I put a Dr Cook on a horse who used to tank off in a Pelham, hated a snaffle (or any jointed bit) and he stopped fighting and pulling. It doesn't suit every horse but I do like them. The main supplier in UK offers a 30 day trial so if it's no good for your horse you can return it.
 
My first thought was the same as Siennamum.

My TB mare, and a cob gelding I used to ride at my RS, are both hard pullers, but only if you get strong with them first. If you can ride them with rein aids light as a feather (easier said then done when they're both blooming fast and excitable) and ride predominately off your seat, they stay light in the mouth.

I don't really understand how he can take such a heavy contact entirely of his own accord - I've always been taught that it takes two to pull. What happens if you ride on the buckle or when you're walking off on a long rein? Have you (or has anyone else who's ridden him in the past) ridden with their hands fixed down by their knees so he's become accustomed to a heavy contact? What do dressage judges say?

I do know, however, how tiring and uncomfortable it is riding a puller, I've got to the end of a 60 second SJ course feeling faint with with my arms shaking before
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. If he went best in a hackamore, I'd be inclined to continue using it at least for the activities you feel confident in.

My mare still tends to get strong in a snaffle so I ride her in a dutch gag and only revert to the hanging snaffle for dressage.
 
Im not sure but i think a cherry roller is different to something with just a little peanut (as Iv heard people call it) in the centre? allows them something to focus on other than getting heavy in the hand..............
not sure if its dressage legal or not? ud have to check.

http://www.thesaddleryshop.co.uk/P/28_02-(526).aspx like this but not quite, as the peanut is a little circular thing in the middle rather than a cylinder like this

or maybe try a small snaffle or like a bradoon if he has a slightly fleshy mouth its smaller to sit in the mouth but has a stronger pressure when taking a contact (narrower area of pressure applying and all that!
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)

Id also try just giving with ur hands when he grabs on, even if it means buckle held and hands half way up his neck literally give him as much as possible and say NO support your own damn head!
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From looking at your list I know you've tried lots of different bits, but I wondered about they type of mouthpiece? My pony is only happy in a mullen mouth - anything else and he pulls and leans and chomps and gets generally annoyed!! Have you asked your EDT what mouthpiece would best suit the conformation of his mouth?

If you're really keen to stick with the snaffle (personally I'd try a mullen mouth pelham on two reins) ...have you tried using a one rein stop on him?? It might stop him pulling your arms out of their sockets.
 
NS Team Up Bit, worked wonders on my TB who constantly pulled and leaned.....

And no you cant warm up in a pelham and then swap to a snaffle for a dressage test!
 
[ QUOTE ]


And no you cant warm up in a pelham and then swap to a snaffle for a dressage test!

[/ QUOTE ]

why not?? is there a rule about this?! I'll be doing it tomorrow...
 
You could try a month in a double bridle. I often find that it can help them find balance without relying on the hand. Probably completely incorrect but they do at least respect it & you can ride with a very light contact.
 
my goodness, the amount of bits you must have in your take room. you could open your own bit bank. it is possible that he has got used to having his bit changed so often that he is unsure what is going on his mouth at all. i would go right back to basics with this horse. maybe even a hanging cheek happy mouth snaffle. i suspect that he has a very small mouth inside, but with quite a flesshy tongue. if this is the case, then anything that does not allow him tonge room, will either cause him to chuck his head in the air, or grab hold of it and lean on you. he is probably not leaning on the bit if he is pulling your arms like this. what it sounds ike is that he is getting hold of the bit and holding it tight in his mouth so the bit has no use at all. in effect, he is then just pulling on you attached to the reins at the end. i would suggest that the happy mouth or one of the loose ring shaped neue schule bits would help. these offer a good space for tongue relief. also, when you are riding, try not to get into a tug of war situation. he is always going to win the war. instead try keeping the contact with the outside rein and just using the inside rein to stop him. using i pull and give action, with one rein, will mean that he has nothing to pull against. this is hard to do at first as your natural instinct is to hold on. if you have to, pull him round on a circle with this method untill he gives and relaxes and accepts the rein. good luck and sorry for the essay.
 
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