Whats people's thoughts of the Monty Roberts methods then

[neelie OAP]

Its been a very interesting reading people's thoughts on the PP methods, so what are your thoughts or experiences of the Monty Roberts way of doing things, and have you ever thought of making the trip to the USA to gain the qualifications or do you think our own qualifications through the BHS are more suitable

 

[sychnant]

Intelligent Horsemanship has always worked for my horses if I have had problems doing something with them.

You don't have to go to the US to get the qualifications btw, courses are regularly run over here, check out their website for details

 

[Hedwards]

I think 'his' methods work (although i use the term 'his' losely as i dont believe he is the only one to be using them)

I have always admired MR - however I find he's become very commercial in recent years, promoting his latest book rather than what he actually does.

I remember going to see him waaaay back in the 90's i think, and was in awe of him, my non horsey father took me (we travelled all the way from Leicester to the South Coast I think - the whole family went and we made a weekend of it) - and even my dad was amazed by what he did, and more importantly, MR explained it in a way my dad understood!

On a subsequent holiday in California, we made a stop at Flag is Up Farm (Monty's Ranch/Farm/Training yard etc etc) we were the only visitors that day that werent there for training, we were welcomed with open arms, Monty wasnt there, however we met one of his daughters, who spoke to us for a long time, as well as watching them 'starting' a young racehorse - completely awe-inspiring - my whole family including my very young (at the time) brother sat in complete silence watching one of MR's trainers work the horses. Of course meeting Shy Boy, Dually were an added bonus!

I thoroughly enjoyed 'join up' with my old mare Betty - we had a round pen at Uni, however, I've never really had the facilities to be able to do it since...

 

[brucea]

Been one of the horse/owner combos used in an event (at Gleneagles) about 8 years ago - spent lots of time working together in the afternoon and went way over time in the evening show with him - Link and Monty seemed to really hit it off together - helped a lot at the time.

Loved Monty - funny, sharp, fair, good horseman. Didn't think so much of KM though - watched her get into quite deep water of her own making with a mare she chose to have an "assertive" approach to, where a more reasoned approach would have worked much better, she didn't seem to take account of the mare's personality.

Hate the Dualy as a device, mine went in the bin because I wouldn't give it away to anyone else to abuse their horse with. Work on your hands - get them better - you don't need such a gadget.

Stood with Monty and laughed our heads off at my big stoopid horse seeing himself for the very first time in a full length mirrored wall Watching the slowly dawning realisation that it was really himself he was seeing! I didn't know horses could pull quite so many faces!

 

[Marydoll]

What ive seen and tried with Monty ive liked, i also rate and respect Richard Maxwell, im not a big fan of KM though

 

[ponypilotmum]

I'm more of a fan of Richard Maxwell, but all of them - well - it's just common sense really isn't it? it's nothing new, it's stuff we were doing 30 years ago. Stuff we were taught by proper nags men.

 

[Magnetic Sparrow]

I agree, Lucky-Lady, but if common sense really was common we wouldn't need Monty Roberts, Kelly Marks or Richard Maxwell! As it is I've got time for all three of them, they have a lot to offer, but no-one should slavishly follow anyone's method without considering their own horse and what they already know of its character imho.

 

[amandap]

I'm more of a fan of Richard Maxwell, but all of them - well - it's just common sense really isn't it? it's nothing new, it's stuff we were doing 30 years ago. Stuff we were taught by proper nags men.

I think this is half the problem people aren't taught or don't bother to learn.
Nothing is new in the horse world really but with so many owners either new to horses or learned/taught rough and/or ineffective ways there is a need for something surely. If people were taught the basics from the word go there would be no need for people like Monty/Parelli et al.
It may all be 'common sense' when you know it but if you're not taught it isn't imo.

The BHS may well be good (I've no personal experience) but their message isn't getting through to owners. I believe KM does some teaching with BHS now.

I also think there are a lot of people that try to run before they can walk so to speak. Jumping on a horse and riding off into the sunset is a tiny part of having a horse.

 

[smokey]

Also saw MR at Gleneagles several years ago and was very impressed by the man himself, although I do think that anyone with common sense and a natural affinity with horses could probably achieve the same results. That said, I thoroughly enjoyed his performance, and several of his books.

 

[Ibblebibble]

i think some aspects of the method are very good, anything that makes people try to understand their horses rather than just impose their will on them can only be a good thing IMO I quite like him too, he always seems to come across as a caring kind of guy, damn good rider in his day too!! what i do find is that i take some of his 'stories' with a pinch of salt, reminds me of one of the old guys in the pub who's stories would get more 'interesting' with every telling

Although a lot of NH is old methods repackaged i honestly don't think it's such a bad thing, some of it had got so buried it needed bringing back out into the open, people needed to be reminded that horses are living breathing animals not just machines and you can get great results from working 'with' them

Now if you really want someone who stays under the media radar and actually seems to spend his time working with horses and people rather than promoting himself look up Mark Rashid he's given me a few lightbulb moments with my sensitive /quirky gelding

 

[PandorasJar]

Like with any method, they shouldn't be followed to the T, but instead the bits that work for you and your horse should be taken from a range of ideas.

Listening to your horse is far more valuable than any one method of training. Ask the horse and work together rather than argue it - they are a lot stronger than us!

That being said I loved his books as a kid - someone who loves what he's doing and loves the animals he's working with.

Pan

 

[Morgan123]

I really, really dislike join up and really, really dislike that I was taken in by it and did it with my horse when I first got him. Sure it works fine, and you have the horse following you nicely like a dog and it all feels very warm and lovely, but now i would MUCH rather get my horse to follow me because he thinks it's a good idea because I am interesting and fun, rather than because he knows I will send him away from me if he doesn't follow me around like a dog. There are far, far better ways of getting the horse to stick wiht you at liberty. Also, it really really bugs me that he says this is natural, because there have been studies (one in case was run by the Natural Animal Centre) with wild Equids, none of whom showed this behaviour, and certainly it is a behaviour that we don't see in our domestic horses (except in perhaps very rare circumstances).

Secondly, I think that MR is quite contradictory. A great example is that I am signed up to his weekly emails which have a weekly Q&A - one lady said she wanted to try join up but her horse rushes at her with its teeth bared. His response was to put a plastic bag on the stick to make herself more menacing. Aside from the point that it's not really very safe advice, I just think that's really oversimplifying things - i.e. horse is agressive so you jsut have to find a way to make yourself more agressive/domainant/scary than he is. Many far, far better ways of going about working with a horse like this, and really I don't think trainers should advise on working with agressive animals without seeing them first because there are SO many multiple issues that can be going on (fear agression, dominance agression, many spoilt homebreds become agressive, pain agression etc) and all should be treated differently.

Another example of something he does whihc I disagree with is his use of flooding as a tool - e.g. I have seen him twice at demos use a large doll tied on to a horse, to make an 'unrideable' horse 'rideable'. Both horses went crazy and bucked, but of course could not get the doll off and, of course, in due time both were unable to do anything but stop bucking and get on with things. In SOME situations this might be the only safe way of proceeding, but it is massively stressful to the horse (much like being put in a roomful of spiders if you're a spider-phobe), and not a long-term cure, it'd be miles better ot work bit-by-bit with the horse and address the cause of the problem, in most cases.

The pressure-release (dually)stuff is just standard so OK if you agree wiht pressure-release as the basis of your training methods, but I don't think the dually is all that 'kind' which is what it is marketed as. He said in a demo that it 'shouts praise and whispers corrections' which made me laugh. Release of pain - or uncomfortableness, at the very least - is not exactly shouting praise.

I think there are much kinder ways of treating horses, but some of what he does is OK. he is certainly a very likeable person and has a nice way with horses, but I don't like what he actually does with them a lot of the time, if you see what I mean!

 

[Ranyhyn]

I don't follow any particular thinking on horse training/ownership particularly. I try to pick up things from all ideas that suit my individual horse and so long as we're both happy then I adopt a "if its not broke - don't fix it" approach.

 

[fburton]

Not fond of Join-Up myself, but think IH does a lot of good helping both people and horses.

 

[Montyforever]

I like Monty Roberts but I wouldn't follow anyone blindly, would only take the bits of advice I think will be helpful and don't use a dually etc
I've done join up didnt find it made things that different as I had been having weekly groundwork lessons with her for a while but didn't do any harm so I don't see a issue with it

 

[amandap]

The trouble is join up over shadows the principles imo. Because that is what MR shows at demos everyone thinks that's some magic bullet and rushes out to do it. I have learned a lot about how to move a horse loose and not block it, use my body energy etc. from JU but I've never done it.

Many people see IH as join up and duallies and tbh they are not really what it's about at all imho. To me it's about personal awareness and development, questioning and gaining knowledge and skills from everywhere that puts the horse's view at the forefront.

 

[Morgan123]

The trouble is join up over shadows the principles imo. Because that is what MR shows at demos everyone thinks that's some magic bullet and rushes out to do it. I have learned a lot about how to move a horse loose and not block it, use my body energy etc. from JU but I've never done it.

Many people see IH as join up and duallies and tbh they are not really what it's about at all imho. To me it's about personal awareness and development, questioning and gaining knowledge and skills from everywhere that puts the horse's view at the forefront.

To be fair, he does use join up with most if not nearly all horses he works with, and uses duallys on all of them so they are pretty core to what he's doing. But you are right in that there are still things that can be learnt re: body language, energy etc whihc are not quite so drastic, and can be useful!

 

[neelie OAP]

All very interesting, my honest opinion is to keep an open mind, because they all have SOME good idea's, because with horses I have found that you can never stop learning, its just such a shame that all the old 'nags men' are all but gone now, because people could learn so much from them, suppose I was lucky really because my dad was one, of course I didn't appricate it at the time bless him, but now looking back I do.

 

[amandap]

To be fair, he does use join up with most if not nearly all horses he works with, and uses duallys on all of them so they are pretty core to what he's doing.

That's a fair point and most people think you have to use a dually and do JU.

It's a bit like a clicker gadget being core to what a clicker trainer does. Many people think they have to have one.

I do wish MR would re make the dually DVD though.

 

[BlackRider]

I too am not a fan of join up, and too many people think this is the magical answer, and do this very regularly with their horses.

I'm sure Kelly Marks once said its something you should only need to do a handful of times with a horse. At the end of the day you are forcing the horse away from the "herd" which is a punishment, and IMO isn't something you should do on a daily basis, like some people need to think they should do.

I did go to a demo many years ago, but felt it was just a vehicle for selling the duallys...

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

I'm not a NH person per say and I despise PP. But most of what these guys teach is common sense. Sometimes people miss out on the real workings of horses if only taking lessons learning to ride. Or how to do the basics of pick feet and groom ect. Most people enjoy a life of horses and have never started one and don't realise it's more than just getting on. I mean really, that's my business and I'm still amazed people think horses will normally buck or try and get you off. Then I get really annoyed people think only a NH guru or follower are the only ones who know how to do it properly.

So yes it's nice I guess for people to see all this kind of stuff but with caution. As in because you know how to do join up or think you know, doesn't mean you have the skills to buy a youngster and proceed with no issues. One little mistake in the starting process can lead to life long issues.

By the way lost all respect for join up when a friend and her boss went to a clinic and practiced join up on each other. LOL!

I also am a bit miffed with this word bonding. It's way over used and is most used by people who refer to every horse they have as a rescue. People who never want or think anyone can ride their horse but them. "black stallion syndrome". I feel I've done the best job when my horses or any horses I'm dealing with can be delt with by anyone. My horses are all different and "need" me in different ways. That's not a great word but hard to describe. Some horses are naturally people horses, some less so. As long as you have mutual respect for each other and have good working relationship, you shouldn't be so worried about this word bond.

Terri

 

[Merlin11]

I saw Monty at Gleneagles and was very impressed. He very clearly has a way with horses. I don't agree with all his methods but think most people could learn something from him. We certainly got some good tips on loading and people now comment on how well our horses load onto the trailer. Haven't tried join up or the special halters. Think I have a good bond with my horses without join up - they follow me everywhere!

 

[EquiGal92]

Love Monty Roberts however saying that there are some things that I do disagree with and think that there are much more better solutions though such as like using the Buck Stopper (I think thats what its called). And watching demos on H&C channel have been a bit for me also at times...

But still Monty Roberts, Kelly Marks and Richard Maxwell all top my list of fave methods I have seen/heard/read about unlike Parelli and like Monty Roberts about yay or nay for definate - Clinton Anderson.

 

[Theocat]

I've always thought of Join Up as a shortcut to establishing the kind of relationship you ought to have with your horse. I can understand using it on a new horse, but what I really don't understand is all those people who rush out and do join up with a horse they've had for years. Shouldn't they have built that relationship already? I've never "joined up" with mine and I can't get rid of him!

I've seen a bit more of MR over the last few weeks, and I've been surprised how much I liked him - that Martin Clunes vid came across well; or MR did, anyway!

 

[ZondaR]

I really like him. My horse wont load without a dually halter so thank you for that MR. NH is common sense and obvious after you have learned it. The books and the halter have certainly improved my relationship with my horse.

 

[muff747]

I think we need to remember that when we see MR working with horses at demo's they usually have a specific problem that the owner has been having difficulty with. The JU is done in that situation IMO to re-establish some basic boundaries, a bit like when a child has been allowed to run wild and is creating havoc, the Super Nanny goes in and sorts out the rules and forms a contract (if the child is old enough to understand) with the child on how they will be expected to behave in future, and how they will be rewarded for good behaviour.
So, (based on how MR describes the Equus language converstation) the JU says to the horse, hey listen up, we need to draw up a contract so we can understand each other and get back some respect here. The sign language the horse gives in return say "ok, I will let you be the chairman of the discussion"
The JU is a tool but is not necessary in all cases, it all depends on the personality of the horse and if there is a problem to work on. If there isn't a problem, I don't see JU is necessary to enable a good relationship with your horse.
The dually halter is another tool which only needs to be used on horses that have taken over control of their handlers. It is only necessary to reestablish some respect and if a half a ton horse has realised it can break away when tied up or can pull over a human when it is being led, then I think a dually is necessary - but it will not be needed if there are other ways of getting a strong horse to remember to be respectful, I don't know how though?
I have found that IH is about learning horse phsycology (sp?)-learning to understand why the horse is behaving in such a way so that makes it easier to find a solution, and particularly learning about their body language and how they are reading our body language all the time we are around them. This is what MR has taught me and that is what I believe he is trying to get across to people so they can have a better relationship with their horse.

 

[moandben]

I thought I liked MR until I just watched a video on you tube posted on the REAR facebook page of him doing join up on a TWH with great big riser pads on its feet and bandages on its legs to hide the torture marks. !!!

 

[Miss L Toe]

I also am a bit miffed with this word bonding. It's way over used and is most used by people who refer to every horse they have as a rescue. People who never want or think anyone can ride their horse but them. "black stallion syndrome". I feel I've done the best job when my horses or any horses I'm dealing with can be delt with by anyone. My horses are all different and "need" me in different ways. That's not a great word but hard to describe. Some horses are naturally people horses, some less so. As long as you have mutual respect for each other and have good working relationship, you shouldn't be so worried about this word bond.

Terri

Sheesh, am I glad to see a professional actually make that statement..... Every time I hear "we will take three months to bond before we ride/canter/jump"........... sigh, I know the person is inexperienced, not able to take on anything other than a kind plod.

It is a recent phenomenon, and to be honest, I just used to tack up and ride, yes some horses need a bit of time spent on tacking up, but once on their back, there was not much bonding, just ask them to do what is required.
These days, I have a lot more time to mess about with my boy, but to be honest, I think it is a one sided relationship, he knows who I am, and does ask for help sometimes, but in general I am a source of food, and a good groomer. Even after four years, he would be quite happy with someone else as long as they were fair to him.
Education..... does every school child have to bond with their teacher before they open their first book, not really.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

RE bonding. I hadn't heard of the term being used in reference to a horse/owner relationship before I came on this forum.

I like that my horses recognise me, even if I'm in a group of several people. I always assumed (maybe wrongly) that that was what they meant by bonding.

 

[EstherYoung]

Now if you really want someone who stays under the media radar and actually seems to spend his time working with horses and people rather than promoting himself look up Mark Rashid he's given me a few lightbulb moments with my sensitive /quirky gelding

Definitely

I'm very lucky as my instructor trained with him and she takes the same patient approach.