What's worse?

[SusieT]

All other things such as temperment, health tests for the specific breeds being equal. Scenario 1:
Breeding pure bred bulldogs or pugs (i.e who struggle to breathe if exercised strenuously)
Or Scenario 2:
Breeding
Example:Cairn x shitzu
Labradoodles
(both of whom will obviously inherit potential breed problems yadda yadda)

 

[CAYLA]

All other things such as temperment, health tests for the specific breeds being equal. Scenario 1:
Breeding pure bred bulldogs or pugs (i.e who struggle to breathe if exercised strenuously)
Or Scenario 2:
Breeding
Example:Cairn x shitzu
Labradoodles
(both of whom will obviously inherit potential breed problems yadda yadda)

Both just as bad as each other......... not all bull dogs have hideous problems with breathing, some are pretty athletic (see skate boarding/surfing posts) with the bull dogs.

Some shih-tzu's have hideous breathing issues, so the litter of cairn x shih-tzu's we could presume my also be suffering with breathing problems, with no doubt horrible under/overshot jaws with this type of cross.
We will say the labradoodles have crippling hip problems at 12 months, and have been rid of because they shed hair and where bought by allergy sufferers and they are in labradoodle rescue

Anyways it besides the point, they all looked cute as puppies and thas all that matters.

 

[CAYLA]

Ps, im loving the different variations of post keeping the old breeding topic going....I need to get me thinking cap on and think of me own.

 

[Pix]

Hmm, implied inevitable asphyxiation or 'yada yada'..... That is certainly a tough one. I get the impression you're leading me towards a certain answer, but I am just too obtuse and simple to grasp what it might be

I'm going to go with scenario 3: Making yet another breeding thread, whilst simultaneously reducing a complex debate to a vague, hypothetical, two-sided argument.

 

[CAYLA]

Hmm, implied inevitable asphyxiation or 'yada yada'..... That is certainly a tough one. I get the impression you're leading me towards a certain answer, but I am just too obtuse and simple to grasp what it might be

I'm going to go with scenario 3: Making yet another breeding thread, whilst simultaneously reducing a complex debate to a vague, hypothetical, two-sided argument.

Listen you, stop wasting time on these bladdy breeding posts and get them rejected mutts "but one cute pups" on that website missus

 

[meandmyself]

I think the point here is that the cross-breeds are better off than the pure breeds.

To be honest, I don't care if someone breeds pure or crosses as long as they're breeding for healthy dogs that will have homes.

 

[Pix]

Listen you, stop wasting time on these bladdy breeding posts and get them rejected mutts "but one cute pups" on that website missus

Suitably chastised. Doing it now.

 

[soloabe]

If you are breeding bulldogs and pugs well you shouldn't have issues.

 

[MurphysMinder]

If you are breeding bulldogs and pugs well you shouldn't have issues.

This. There are plenty of these breeds living active lives, yes there are some who struggle but you cannot make a sweeping statement that all bull dogs and pugs struggle to breathe (susieT not KL.)

 

[EAST KENT]

This. There are plenty of these breeds living active lives, yes there are some who struggle but you cannot make a sweeping statement that all bull dogs and pugs struggle to breathe (susieT not KL.)

At last, a grain of the truth

 

[Jake10]

I wonder what the pups would be like if you bred a French Bulldog with a Lab (obviously the female would be the Lab). Lets say that both dogs have excellent temps, good heath test results and a good pedigree.

Since the bulldog, as a breed, has breathing difficulties and good joints. The Lab, as a breed, has hip and other joint problems with no breathing difficulties the pups could, in theory end up with:

1. Good joints and no breathing problems
2. Bad joints and no breathing problems
3. Good joints and breathing problems
4. Bad joints and breathing problems

Would anyone cross these two breeds on a 1 in 4 chance of a completely healthy pup?

I do prefer crossbreeds as a the pedigree dogs I've known (all from reputable breeders with the relevant health tests etc) have all developed breed related problems yet the crossbreeds haven't (I may just have been very lucky)

 

[Alec Swan]

This. There are plenty of these breeds living active lives, yes there are some who struggle but you cannot make a sweeping statement that all bull dogs and pugs struggle to breathe (susieT not KL.)

Whilst I'd agree with you, or accept, in part that you have a point, are we forgetting that each of our cherished breeds evolved? Are we also forgetting, considering your well argued remarks about breed standards, and those who would decide upon those standards, in another thread, reached a point of stale mate, or stall?

Would it be better, for those breeds which are seen to be failing, and certainly those with respiratory problems must be considered as such, to out source another breed, whereby a dog can be bred, which is capable of living a useful life, and still, arrive there through evolvement?

I do just wonder if our dogs actually benefit from the "breed standards" and those who make such decisions.

Alec.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Hmm, implied inevitable asphyxiation or 'yada yada'..... That is certainly a tough one. I get the impression you're leading me towards a certain answer, but I am just too obtuse and simple to grasp what it might be

ROFL. I think I'd like to move in with you now, please. I'll bring two puppies and a big dog.

I think the point here is that the cross-breeds are better off than the pure breeds.

To be honest, I don't care if someone breeds pure or crosses as long as they're breeding for healthy dogs that will have homes.

This, although I think anyone breeding ought to have a licence, chip the pups so they can forever be traced and be monitored (in some ideal, utopian type world)

 

[Alec Swan]

Jake10,

back in the mid 1800s, several people had the bright idea that they'd cross-breed Pointers, with Retrievers, in the hope of breeding dogs which could perform both tasks.

The reality is that they ended up with dogs which didn't do either!! The cancelling or encouraging traits, aint quite that simple.

A good few years ago, I knew of someone, on a farm, who had both a GSD dog and a Lab bitch. Neither dog had hips which would inspire anyone, they were appalling, but the resultant puppies were as sound as you could ask for!! I don't have any answers, because I don't know either!!

Alec.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

A good few years ago, I knew of someone, on a farm, who had both a GSD dog and a Lab bitch. Neither dog had hips which would inspire anyone, they were appalling, but the resultant puppies were as sound as you could ask for!! I don't have any answers, because I don't know either!!

Alec.

Crazy, but when I was flagellating myself over Zak having HD at the vet appointment, the vet told me that he's come across far too any pups for his liking that have good hipscored parents but have ended up with HD. There was a very interesting post elsewhere re environmental factors eg on what surface pups were raised that could exacerbate or even engender hip etc problems.

 

[Dobiegirl]

I dont think you can always put health problems down to breeding, there a lot of people out there who have no idea how long a puppy should be walked and have their puppies jumping up and down stairs etc. I also think over feeding a puppy protein can cause him to grow too quickly is likely to be another factor

Ive just started agility with Darcy and I did give it a lot of thought but she is small and light boned so Im confident there will be no problems. Diesel on the other hand I would not even consider as he is so big, but have seen pics of a Great Dane doing agility and wonder what health problems he will have in later life.

 

[soloabe]

And how many massively obese pugs and bulldog do we see.
We have a number of both breeds in our group that are in great condition from good breeders and none of them have breathing issues. Thy can run rings around the high energy dogs at the park and all compete in flyball or agility.

 

[Dobiegirl]

I see more overweight Labs & Jack Russells but maybe thats because they are more popular over here.

When I had my 2nd rescue Dobermann I can honestly say Ive never seen such an overweight Dobermann in my life, needless to say I did get him back in shape but was not an over night fix by any means.

 

[SusieT]

'To be honest, I don't care if someone breeds pure or crosses as long as they're breeding for healthy dogs that will have homes. '

Do you think inherently an English bulldog can be healthy? (I have yet to meet one that didn't snuffle and breathe heavil-particularly if put under any stress-am I right in saying Katielou taht American versions tend to be taller and have a less squashed face?)

Just making the point that breeding xbreds does not make you an inherently bad breeder-as I'm sure we all know but sometimes forget..Somehow it seems acceptable to keep breeding towards dogs with squashed faces because they are a recognised pedigree and have a breed standard.

 

[CAYLA]

'To be honest, I don't care if someone breeds pure or crosses as long as they're breeding for healthy dogs that will have homes. '

Do you think inherently an English bulldog can be healthy? (I have yet to meet one that didn't snuffle and breathe heavil-particularly if put under any stress-am I right in saying Katielou taht American versions tend to be taller and have a less squashed face?)

Just making the point that breeding xbreds does not make you an inherently bad breeder-as I'm sure we all know but sometimes forget..Somehow it seems acceptable to keep breeding towards dogs with squashed faces because they are a recognised pedigree and have a breed standard.

My argument is not for X breeding, it's un necessary breeding, hence my comments re the pedigree but all the same irrisponsible breeding in the SB re the spaniel, its not all that different to the j.r.t x westi scenario.

Do you mean British bull dog not English bull terrier (as I mentioned there is a skate boarding/surfing vid on here somewhere with some very nice athletic and very fit looking British bull dogs)
I do not agree with breeding dogs with horrendous health issues and like Alec I would honestly like to see a few out sourced when it comes to the point they are bred so badly they are literally suffering. As I already mentioned I have seen some hideously bred pedigrees and X breeds, they all looked cute as puppies and they all had homes to go to, but they did not all remain there, or live a very nice life.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I don't think anyone is denying that selective breeding has caused some real problems in some breeds, GSDs included, but responsible breeders are trying to improve the situation. I can only speak for my breed but back in the 70s breeders realised that the short legged heavy dog that was being produced in this country was not the fit working dog the founder of the breed had in mind. Quite a few people started using dogs on the continent, and importing some. This was viewed with horror by many people, and there is no doubt some poor quality dogs were brought in/used just because they were "german", but in the long term there is no doubt in my mind the breed has been improved over the years, both in looks, but more importantly in temperament, working ability and health.
I have today been at the British Sieger, this is a show purely for GSDs run under the german system rather than the KC . The catalogue shows all health tests dogs have had, and indeed they cannot enter the higher classes unless they have had certain tests, they also have to be microchipped/tattooed . The top class is only eligible to dogs which have passed a courage test, this involves manwork and is carried out at the show, if a dog fails this (even if it has passed at other shows) it does not go into the ring. The dogs in the top class also have to be gaited (trotted) off lead.
The winners of the top 2 classes are eligible for the qualification VA (Excellent Select) if the judge deems they are good enough.
The reason for all my rambling is that today there was an interesting, and I suspect unprecedented occurrence.
The top bitch class was won by a beautiful bitch, a champion who has won consistently . The judge announced on awarding her the top place that although she was a superb bitch he felt he could not award her the VA grading as her elbow score was Noch Zuglassen (not sufficient, equivalent to 2 or 3 under our scheme). This system of judging is not just a beauty contest, it is looking at the dogs as a future breeding animal too, which is why he felt he couldnt award VA.
Hope that isn't too confusing, I am sure Cave Canem could have explained it far better, not even sure why I have posted it, other than to explain that some breeders and judges are trying to produce a true "fit for purpose" dog, not just a pretty face.

 

[SusieT]

Apologies- I meant more along the lines of the English version of the british bulldog as opposed to the american version of the british bulldog-which tends to be leggier and less bracycephalic than the english version.
PErsonallyI think they should stop breeding them actually, anything with a squashed nose or be incdredibly strict regarding the specimens that are allowed to be bred, only those who can exercise without undue respiratory noise bred.

 

[EAST KENT]

You might be surprised how athletic some short nosed breeds are,I certainly was.

 

[Dobiegirl]

MM That is amazing and will do wonders for the breed in years to come. What a shame other breeds dont adopt a similar idea applicable to their breed. The only negative I can see is the pups will be quite expensive but when you consider what Labradoodle fetch its a no contest in my book.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I don't know how much pups from the top winners at British Siegers would cost (or in the case of the bitch mentioned if she will be bred from ), will be interesting to find out. I may well find out if stud fees for males are high as I went specifically to see a dog I was interested in using on Evie and was very pleased with him. He passed the courage test and was placed 8th in the top class. He is everything I am looking for and think he would have been placed higher if he hadn't been a complete prat in his individual. He was being handled by a professional handler, as were all the dogs, and when his owner came in to do the off lead gaiting he was so pleased to see her, having been apart for all of 10 minutes, he was more interested in jumping up and licking her than moving properly. Later on in the class he settled down and went beautifully in the second off lead part and was moved up a couple of places . I am sure his owner was happy with his placing as there were some lovely dogs in there, the winner was the Crufts Best of Breed who is just as lovely in the flesh, and a gorgeous temperament, but is unfortunately no use as a stud for Evie as he is half brother to her sire.

 

[soloabe]

Apologies- I meant more along the lines of the English version of the british bulldog as opposed to the american version of the british bulldog-which tends to be leggier and less bracycephalic than the english version.
PErsonallyI think they should stop breeding them actually, anything with a squashed nose or be incdredibly strict regarding the specimens that are allowed to be bred, only those who can exercise without undue respiratory noise bred.

Do you not think good breeders are already doing this?
Flat nose does not = not being able to breath.

 

[Dobiegirl]

MM You must have had a lovely day, hope the weather was kinder than it was here. So you have chosen Evie a husband, he sounds lovely and hope he is not too far away when the time comes.

How did Pickle do in his first puppy class.?

 

[MurphysMinder]

Weather was fine, heavy rain on my way there and back but dry all the time I was there. He is not too far away, although not my first priority to find a local dog it is a plus because she is due December/January so don't want to have to go to Scotland if there is 2 ft of snow (although there is a lovely dog up there)
Pickle was pretty good, didn't yap at everything as I feared, did most of his heelwork on his hind legs in true heeler style and was wagging his tail so hard he couldn't sit properly.

 

[copper100]

Can anyone tell me what an Ormskirk Terrier is please?

 

[Jake10]

Can anyone tell me what an Ormskirk Terrier is please?

It's a Lancashire heeler

http://www.lancashireheelers.org/lancashire_heeler_breed_feature.php