What's wrong with tongue over the bit?

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q105

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My RoR TB share has always played around with his bit/mouth/tongue. But now I realise that most of our schooling and lessons have been conducted with his tongue over the bit! My new instructor pointed this out, previous instructor was friend of the owner and (IMO) not great...she never noticed, just thought he was being obnoxious. She plain up didn't like him.

My instructor is no bitting expert. Since I recognised this as being a problem, I have tried the following:

*Tightened lower strap on Micklem bridle. (Worked for the first 30mins, but he spent so much effort getting stressed out about not getting his tongue over the bit, schooling was almost a waste of time).

*Tried NS tranz lozenge universal bit with standard bridle and flash. Resulted in generally high head carriage (which he favours to get tongue over) hacking, but owner didn't like him in it (she never rode him in it, just saw me) and asked me to stick with current combo of myler bit and micklem bridle, so wasn't able to determine whether this might have made a difference. I don't believe he got tongue over with the NS but his head was really high.

*Keeping his head low through sheer manipulation! I hated this. He copes for about 20mins and then he gets all grumpy. And then he goes up, or he kicks out.

I'm struggling to work out what to do next. I have SOO much leg on to get him into the hand. I really do. I'm schooling as much as I can, as well as hacking for a break twice a week, it can be easier to work him hacking over schooling, he relaxes easier. I'm having lessons at least once a week. I'm just getting so frustrated, owner doesn't see the tongue thing as a problem...she says 'he just finds it hard'...but I think he's OBSESSED with his tongue thing.

Back checked recently (and regularly-RoR!) by qualified and well rated chiropractor. Teeth checked by dentist. Feet really brilliant. He has a graze in his lip crease from his bit from time to time (hunting/long hacks), but not horrendous. Soft pallet and quite small mouth, MASSIVE tongue. Can I combine grackle in any way? I'm at my wits end...ANY advice taken....PLEASE!
 
One of mine is a long term tongue over the bit specialist .
We get on best in a myler ported bit but he can't do dressage in that . I got him at 13
Over the last two years we have got him working happily at home in various bits including a bomber Mullen mouth the intelligent design curved mouth snaffle .A thick rubber Mullen mouth I use a cavesson or no noseband at home and a grackle in public .
It's worth getting your horses hyoid checked out as hyoid issues can drive this issue ,sore necks often cause it as well.
Look up the horses anatomy and see how the tongue is linked to structures right thorough into the horses back this is a complex issue to deal with .
 
Thank you Goldenstar...your advice is so valuable at this stage.
He does have flexibility issues, which we work through every single day in warming up. I thought he was more and more supple through work, but the tongue issue sustains. I'll look at anatomy and discuss hyoid with owner...
 
If their is nothing physically wrong with him at all physically and you are schooling him why not try putting him in a bitless? I may be totally wrong here but I knew an ex racer who put tongue over the bit and they put him in a bitless and he was much happier. Nothing wrong with him physically he just didn't like the metal in his sensitive soft pallet.
 
Goldenstar said:
One of mine is a long term tongue over the bit specialist .
We get on best in a myler ported bit but he can't do dressage in that . I got him at 13
Over the last two years we have got him working happily at home in various bits including a bomber Mullen mouth the intelligent design curved mouth snaffle .A thick rubber Mullen mouth I use a cavesson or no noseband at home and a grackle in public .
It's worth getting your horses hyoid checked out as hyoid issues can drive this issue ,sore necks often cause it as well.
Look up the horses anatomy and see how the tongue is linked to structures right thorough into the horses back this is a complex issue to deal with .
Click to expand...

Sorry to hijack but who would you get to check the hyoid? Physio,chiro, vet? Thanks
 
One of mine was like this. He answered best to a sweet iron lozenge boucher. I think it removed the nutcracker, which he hates, encouraged him to mouth the bit (sweet iron) and the boucher holds steady in his mouth, whilst encouraging him to bend. He still sometimes gets his tongue over, but rarely now, rather than all the time :)
 
I had a horse who did this a long time ago, and my instructor at the time suggested fitting the bit lower in the mouth. It sounds counter intuitive, but it worked with that horse.
 
If a horse has a thick tongue you want a narrow mouthpiece the thinner the better.these type of horses cant tolerate thick mouthpieces and will react my putting there tongue over yhe bit in an effort to find a means of escape
 
Hanging cheeks often work be cause they lift the bit in the mouth when it's used .
Loose rings are usually best as the horse gets tongue relief from being able to move the mouth piece .
The NS verbinend is a good one to try if mouth conformation is the issue as is the thin comfort myler .
However you always need to remember it's very possible the mouth is not the issue .
 
I think that some of this problem could be caused by the thick tongue pushing the bit up into the soft pallet and he doesn't like it so he puts his tongue over the bit. I have seen that before with another horse and he was much happier bitless. But the problem may not be anything to do with the mouth so that has to be considered too.
 
Are you using the bit clips that come with the Micklem? If not, that might be something to try. It would hold the bit more steady, and off the tongue/bars.
 
i had a similar exracer and i switched him to bitless for a few months and it seemed to help the issue. The stresses of retraining seemed to make him do the tongue thing, and as he settled to his new career he got out of the habit. he was always very tonguey and a d ring copper roller worked well, and i could hear him rolling the copper bits around when he got stressed, just seemed to give him something to do!
 
horselady said:
I think that some of this problem could be caused by the thick tongue pushing the bit up into the soft pallet and he doesn't like it so he puts his tongue over the bit. I have seen that before with another horse and he was much happier bitless. But the problem may not be anything to do with the mouth so that has to be considered too.
Click to expand...

My mare has a very thick tongue and not a lot of room in her mouth, so was putting her tongue over the bit when I first started her. I worked my way through my bit collection & borrowed some off friends before phoning the bit bank for advice. She is now working nicely in the NS turtle top - which I'd never heard of at the time. Nothing but praise for the bit bank as there was no hard sell and I had the bit on loan first to check it would work.
 
I appreciate you're trying to help the horse, and you are in a way doing the right thing by experimenting with bits. Except it's not your horse and the owner has asked you to stick with the current set up of bit/bridle. You might not agree with their opinion about the toungue over the bit, but it is their horse to do things with as they wish. Are you certain they wouldn't be cross if they found you're continuing to experiment despite being told not to? You might be in danger of losing the ride on this horse.
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
I appreciate you're trying to help the horse, and you are in a way doing the right thing by experimenting with bits. Except it's not your horse and the owner has asked you to stick with the current set up of bit/bridle. You might not agree with their opinion about the toungue over the bit, but it is their horse to do things with as they wish. Are you certain they wouldn't be cross if they found you're continuing to experiment despite being told not to? You might be in danger of losing the ride on this horse.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. You are right to point this out, I'm not working against the wishes of the owner. She is happy for me to change the bit and to use the grackle as she has used this with good effect, but she rarely rides him now, so she hasn't experienced his obsession recently. I want to provide solutions, as the reason I ride him is because he's too much work for her with her other horse too. She is happy for me to use the NS out hacking and XC, but in the school would prefer the current combo. His bit is the myler Mullen barrel.

Reading the hyoid stuff is really interesting, and I note that others posting here with experience of ex-racehorses also have had similar problems. I suspect my horse has been bitted young and has developed a TBesque focus on this.

To other responders: this horse has always been a bit excited by life. He has a great attitude to work, loves working out new stuff, but he's a bit stress and needs very clear commands. Fair enough.

He's always excited and strong out, but quiet hands, calm attitude and firm commands, he can really feel like he's enjoying it. He's not easy. He's very sensitive and he raced hard and a lot so, despite 6 years off the track, he's still a bit fast about everything. And I love him for it! We work on flexibility, transitions, paces, movement and encourage straightness...it's slow progress but it IS progress.

I'd feel nervous in bitless...but happy to look into it more.

Thank you for your replies so far, so much appreciated.
 
Can you ride with two reins ?
If so try one set from the rings on the side of the nose of the micklem and the other from his bit .
That's a safer half way house to be how he reacts to bitless .
 
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