Showjumping When do jumps stop looking big?

[HufflyPuffly]

Is there a point you come down to a fence and just feel confident?

If so how do you end up at that point?

I'm still at the stage of panicking to a fence that we're going too fast/ too slow/ long stride/ short stride/ cr*p no stride/ omg that looks massive! I'm trying my best to ignore that narrative and remember cuddle with my ankles (specific for Skylla that one, she's too hot for 'too' much leg, but we need some leg so that is now our analogy ), hands forward and sit up. She's a good egg if a little feisty, so I'm not sure where all the doubt comes in, maybe I just need to give it more time still?

What I have found interesting is that height of fence is almost irrelevant, if I set up a course of 70cm fences I will still find one to panic over (wide oxers generally), but a single 90-1.05 fence I'm happy to kick on at if my brain has deemed it 'ok' I know I'm weird!

My plan last night was to set up a small course, around 75cm, pop round, put it up, pop round and repeat. We've done a ton of grid work recently and generally feeling more in control to a fence, so thought we could work on keeping a rhythm round a course in a height that should be well within our comfort zones. What actually happened was I thought I rode terribly, panicked over the oxer and so didn't put any fences up, but did manage some rhythm round the course 'ish and practiced some tight turns. I've realised I'm killing the canter down too much in the quest of control, so for the wider/ bigger fences I need to let the handbrake off (Skylla is thrilled ), but it is such a battle with my head to 'let go' to a fence.

Any words of jumping confidence wisdom HHO'ers?

This is last night, doesn't look as hideous as I was convinced it was, though my trade mark red face shows either fear making me sweat or how hard I was working

.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=343963403607928

 

[milliepops]

no longer a jumping HHOer as have nothing that leaves the ground, currently. But when I was, I found that when I had the quality of the canter nailed reliably then the size of the fences became largely irrelevant, i could put up a course at 1.10 with some 1.20s in and pop round happily. if the canter went to pot then i couldn't jump a stick without doing something wrong. I think it's why i was always a more confident xc rider than SJ, because with less abrupt turning and quick fire adjusting it became very much easier to establish a rhythm and regular stride and really ride it.

I hope this comes out the right way but when I watch vids of you and S together it feels like that really rideable easy canter isn't quite established, it's a bit speed up and slow down, sometimes she loses her rhythm. Then it's very hard to get your eye and feel in to the actual fence because you're too busy managing the in between bits?

 

[Roxylola]

I _think_ some of your issue comes feeling a bit out of control particularly as skylla needs you to be very tactful - I suspect shes not especially forgiving either.
I'd keep heights low until you're properly happy over them - so low and wide if your issue is more oxers.
You know you can jump the height so its not that that is the issue.
I know you've said before you like grid work so make oxers part of your grids, stick them on related distances etc as well, I find if I'm riding a related I can focus on the striding rather than the jump.
As you say, it doesn't look awful at all.
One other tip I can offer - I try not to get close to a fence til I'm on board. They look smaller from higher up ? I get in my own head far too much if I actually see them close to on the floor

 

[HufflyPuffly]

no longer a jumping HHOer as have nothing that leaves the ground, currently. But when I was, I found that when I had the quality of the canter nailed reliably then the size of the fences became largely irrelevant, i could put up a course at 1.10 with some 1.20s in and pop round happily. if the canter went to pot then i couldn't jump a stick without doing something wrong. I think it's why i was always a more confident xc rider than SJ, because with less abrupt turning and quick fire adjusting it became very much easier to establish a rhythm and regular stride and really ride it.

I hope this comes out the right way but when I watch vids of you and S together it feels like that really rideable easy canter isn't quite established, it's a bit speed up and slow down, sometimes she loses her rhythm. Then it's very hard to get your eye and feel in to the actual fence because you're too busy managing the in between bits?

No her canter is her weakest gait for sure and we either have small and bouncy or big and flat, the middle ground is what I'm trying to work on so that makes sense that until the canter is easier the jumps will feel as difficult as the canter is! Gridwork is almost hiding the issue as the ground lines and placing poles set her up so I can stop messing about with the canter and just ride to the fence, which is the whole point of it but need to translate it across to a course of fences now?

I _think_ some of your issue comes feeling a bit out of control particularly as skylla needs you to be very tactful - I suspect shes not especially forgiving either.
I'd keep heights low until you're properly happy over them - so low and wide if your issue is more oxers.
You know you can jump the height so its not that that is the issue.
I know you've said before you like grid work so make oxers part of your grids, stick them on related distances etc as well, I find if I'm riding a related I can focus on the striding rather than the jump.
As you say, it doesn't look awful at all.
One other tip I can offer - I try not to get close to a fence til I'm on board. They look smaller from higher up ? I get in my own head far too much if I actually see them close to on the floor

She's sharp so I guess not too forgiving, though she is simple to ride on the whole, just have to give her time to process and stay in balance.

I know wide fences are the thing I hate, so definitely plan to jump a lot of low wide ones! Gridwork is funny as I think it's almost made me believe we are more confident/ able that actually we are, without all the ground poles acting as our stabilizers the wheels fall off a bit . I've put lots of oxers in grids thinking it was helping my confidence, apparently not lol, but we will keep working on it!

Last bit is an issue when it's me building the fences .

 

[milliepops]

grids are really useful to set you up on a metered stride that can't change because the jumping will fall apart... can you set yourself up a simple confidence boosting and canter-regulating grid and then ride from that directly into a short course? it would mean you set off with the correct feel and then if you can maintain it the rest should come easier?

 

[HufflyPuffly]

grids are really useful to set you up on a metered stride that can't change because the jumping will fall apart... can you set yourself up a simple confidence boosting and canter-regulating grid and then ride from that directly into a short course? it would mean you set off with the correct feel and then if you can maintain it the rest should come easier?

Oh I like this idea!

Will give it a go for sure, she gets a little zoomy after fences but to be honest I think I need to let her ride more forward just in balance and with jump in the canter, can't practice that forward canter without actually riding it forward can I lol.

 

[Roxylola]

I'd try more related distances same principle as grid work but with less "help" maybe

 

[ihatework]

No her canter is her weakest gait for sure and we either have small and bouncy or big and flat, the middle ground is what I'm trying to work on so that makes sense that until the canter is easier the jumps will feel as difficult as the canter is! Gridwork is almost hiding the issue as the ground lines and placing poles set her up so I can stop messing about with the canter and just ride to the fence, which is the whole point of it but need to translate it across to a course of fences now?



She's sharp so I guess not too forgiving, though she is simple to ride on the whole, just have to give her time to process and stay in balance.

I know wide fences are the thing I hate, so definitely plan to jump a lot of low wide ones! Gridwork is funny as I think it's almost made me believe we are more confident/ able that actually we are, without all the ground poles acting as our stabilizers the wheels fall off a bit . I've put lots of oxers in grids thinking it was helping my confidence, apparently not lol, but we will keep working on it!

Last bit is an issue when it's me building the fences .

She looks like she would benefit a lot from the clock exercise that my young horse does a lot. 20m circle with poles a 12, 3, 6, 9 o’clock. Then build up one fence and eventually 2.

Try to avoid getting into a fight and allow the poles and the turning to do the work for you.

 

[milliepops]

Oh I like this idea!

Will give it a go for sure, she gets a little zoomy after fences but to be honest I think I need to let her ride more forward just in balance and with jump in the canter, can't practice that forward canter without actually riding it forward can I lol.

yeah. the biggest lightbulb moment I had was learning to ride forward to a fence instead of holding to it - obviously there's a limit and just riding ever more forwards isn't the right way either but that really helped me to stop getting into the over-correcting habit and do more longer-term small and non-disruptive adjustments instead of firing or hooking into fences at the last minute!

clock exercise is a good one, I think anything where you take the concept of what gridwork gives you and put it into a different or bigger space is a good idea because it will bridge the gap between the regimentation of a grid and the freeform nature of jumping courses.

 

[Dasher66]

Excitement and fear are the same emotion with different perspectives, ie positive and negative. Just rebrand your feelings. You wouldnt do it if you were really scared - would you?

 

[HufflyPuffly]

I'd try more related distances same principle as grid work but with less "help" maybe

Will give it a go, I can't really ask organizers to put placing poles our for me can I .

She looks like she would benefit a lot from the clock exercise that my young horse does a lot. 20m circle with poles a 12, 3, 6, 9 o’clock. Then build up one fence and eventually 2.

Try to avoid getting into a fight and allow the poles and the turning to do the work for you.

We've done this one too, and she did get the idea but we did have to start with pole on the floor, have a 'discussion' about not p*ssing off and then put them up as small fences. I think I need to just carry on as we are maybe? We also did a nice exercise with angled bounces, instead of doing the bounces we jumped one, circled round and then jumped the next, that was a good exercise for her too as the turn rebalanced her without me needing to over correct.

Excitement and fear are the same emotion with different perspectives, ie positive and negative. Just rebrand your feelings. You wouldnt do it if you were really scared - would you?

haha love this! Can give it a go, I respond well to positive visualization so this could work.

 

[ihatework]

The thing is about the ‘discussion’ is that you get the exercise to do the work for you. So if she is trying to piss off, semi let her, just keep her turning and buggering up the poles until she cottons on for herself. It’ll feel and look horrid, but ultimately the penny needs to drop and you can’t force that.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

The thing is about the ‘discussion’ is that you get the exercise to do the work for you. So if she is trying to piss off, semi let her, just keep her turning and buggering up the poles until she cottons on for herself. It’ll feel and look horrid, but ultimately the penny needs to drop and you can’t force that.

We've tried this approach and it didn't go well, she gets faster and faster and then very upset at hitting poles... I can try again with her now she knows more, after we have the discussion on not bogging off I can leave her to it far more, but that initial bit of speed control is needed maybe this is our root issue?

 

[Roxylola]

With the clock face, your arena looks pretty big, can you circle out after a pole so she doesn't knob off? So you're on say a 20m circle over poles to the left but doing a 10m right after each pole? Or make your circle bigger, so you're able to ride forwards rather than having to get the brakes on.
A lot of horses (in my experience) use knobbing off as a bit of an evasion and a way of making you ride the front end rather than keeping your leg on and making them step up.
I'm no expert, and I think you do a pretty good job with her as she's not straightforward at all, but while you don't want to be bogging round like a hooligan shes also got to accept your leg

 

[milliepops]

If she can't learn to back herself off for her own self preservation then you have to get super good at riding the canter to the right spot all the time, and the way I see it, the quickest way to do that is to learn to ride the same length stride everywhere you go, so not holding in the corners but riding around smoothly in the same rhythm and pace. same on straight lines, not letting her make it get longer but maintaining the same quality of canter everywhere.

and then you can do the same over poles, you do the stride regulation and she does the footwork. and then the same should hold true to fences, with the added benefit of it gets a lot easier to see a stride when you are approaching at an even rate than when you are going a bit faster, a bit slower etc.

It is very boring solution but I think the root of this is submission and flatwork based appreciate that's not what anyone wants at the start of the eventing season.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

With the clock face, your arena looks pretty big, can you circle out after a pole so she doesn't knob off? So you're on say a 20m circle over poles to the left but doing a 10m right after each pole? Or make your circle bigger, so you're able to ride forwards rather than having to get the brakes on.
A lot of horses (in my experience) use knobbing off as a bit of an evasion and a way of making you ride the front end rather than keeping your leg on and making them step up.
I'm no expert, and I think you do a pretty good job with her as she's not straightforward at all, but while you don't want to be bogging round like a hooligan shes also got to accept your leg

Aww but she really really wants to just knob about being a hooligan .

Arena is 50x30m so plently big enough, I like the circling away after each pole, as I think making the circle bigger might encourage more knobbing off?

100% an evasion to avoid working her bum, she's very weak behind so it's hard for her.

If she can't learn to back herself off for her own self preservation then you have to get super good at riding the canter to the right spot all the time, and the way I see it, the quickest way to do that is to learn to ride the same length stride everywhere you go, so not holding in the corners but riding around smoothly in the same rhythm and pace. same on straight lines, not letting her make it get longer but maintaining the same quality of canter everywhere.

and then you can do the same over poles, you do the stride regulation and she does the footwork. and then the same should hold true to fences, with the added benefit of it gets a lot easier to see a stride when you are approaching at an even rate than when you are going a bit faster, a bit slower etc.

It is very boring solution but I think the root of this is submission and flatwork based appreciate that's not what anyone wants at the start of the eventing season.

Makes total sense! We've been working hard at the canter but still not nailed that consistent bigger canter, we can do small and consistent but the bigger canter goes a bit yeehaa still. At least I know what we're working on should help, we've got a bit more time for bootcamp.

 

[TheMule]

Use a pole or cavaletti 3 strides out (so pole and then 2 strides then the fence) from the oxers to put you in a pattern when course jumping. I find it bridges the gap between coursework and gridwork

 

[Lanky Loll]

With regards to when do they stop looking big - usually when you're ready to move up a level

With your mare being a little rude, I'd be trying the jump and stop exercise. So single fence in the arena, jump it, land and stop in a straightline within 3 strides - it won't happen the first time. Turn round straight back over the fence and stop. Until they're bored and listening. It doesn't have to be done in a heavy handed way as some do it, I usually aim for before the end of the school the first time, then closer to the jump each time after that. It gets you sitting up quicker and they start to back off more as they're waiting for the woah.

 

[LEC]

Your canter is under powered on turns and you are then coming to a fence on a canter you shouldn't be coming to. It means your rhythm will always be off and as such your eye and brain will always be screaming at you because its not consistent, and you will never get better (confident) until it is consistent.

You need to put much more discipline into your riding. You are doing no favours to yourself coming off those awful turns. You could have circled and then come to the fence. You could have pulled her up and put her through transitions making sure she is staying round.

Personally if I am struggling with the canter I set up 3 cavalletti on 20yds. If I am not coming down to both in 4 strides I know my canter isn't correct. Its easy in a 20 x 40m to kill the canter. I find it hard and have to think forwards all the time riding in one when jumping.

I think you need to practice with poles on the ground first coming with a decent canter. Have the cavalletti exercise I mentioned set up to test your canter hasn't altered. You need to be confident in your eye and in the canter but without worrying you will mess it up.

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Use a pole or cavaletti 3 strides out (so pole and then 2 strides then the fence) from the oxers to put you in a pattern when course jumping. I find it bridges the gap between coursework and gridwork

Yes normally I put a pole out to keep our striding, I was trying without to see where we would be in a comp sort of setting, badly was the answer lol, but poles will be put back in!

With regards to when do they stop looking big - usually when you're ready to move up a level

With your mare being a little rude, I'd be trying the jump and stop exercise. So single fence in the arena, jump it, land and stop in a straightline within 3 strides - it won't happen the first time. Turn round straight back over the fence and stop. Until they're bored and listening. It doesn't have to be done in a heavy handed way as some do it, I usually aim for before the end of the school the first time, then closer to the jump each time after that. It gets you sitting up quicker and they start to back off more as they're waiting for the woah.

Haha, I'm destined to stay at 60cm for ever, I manage to make everything else seem big apparently!

We've done this exercise until the cows come home, she will settle but her go to is always wanting to zoom off...

Your canter is under powered on turns and you are then coming to a fence on a canter you shouldn't be coming to. It means your rhythm will always be off and as such your eye and brain will always be screaming at you because its not consistent, and you will never get better (confident) until it is consistent.

You need to put much more discipline into your riding. You are doing no favours to yourself coming off those awful turns. You could have circled and then come to the fence. You could have pulled her up and put her through transitions making sure she is staying round.

Personally if I am struggling with the canter I set up 3 cavalletti on 20yds. If I am not coming down to both in 4 strides I know my canter isn't correct. Its easy in a 20 x 40m to kill the canter. I find it hard and have to think forwards all the time riding in one when jumping.

I think you need to practice with poles on the ground first coming with a decent canter. Have the cavalletti exercise I mentioned set up to test your canter hasn't altered. You need to be confident in your eye and in the canter but without worrying you will mess it up.

I really hope you don't teach, there are ways of saying things without deliberately being hurtful...

 

[LEC]

I am just straight about stuff. Its up to you if you want to improve or not. You clearly do, or you wouldn't post this publicly, instead you would ask trusted friends/trainer and do it privately.

I don't think I have been hurtful. You can ignore my advice or it might strike a spark of resonance on something you could easily change and improve. After all you have no idea if I have been round Badminton or if I cannot rise to the trot yet.

 

[Bernster]

Are you me?! Although you’re not cos I’m still pootling about at 60/70 and can’t seem to get beyond that. Am now reconciled to it (for now!).

Big gappy fences freak me out so open oxers are just ? Am finding the above v useful as I have similar fears due to messing with the canter and not quite making the transition from grids and placing poles to a normal course. We do the former well, it keeps my flappy legs and arms in check, but I still fluff up the latter.

 

[TPO]

Easy to say when it's not directed at me but IMO Lec wasnt being deliberately hurtful and was getting directly to the point while possibly saving your neck/life.

Not an eventer and just an opinion on a forum that you are free to ignore but IMO you have to take this horse back to the very basics. A horse that isnt accepting of the leg(/"too much leg") and where there appears to be no ride ability isnt one I'd focus on jumping never mind over fixed fences. Even more so based on your response to poles exercises not going well at all.

By training the walk and having the horse in front of the leg and in the hand etc etc through every gait poles you'll then find poles and jumping much easier. You'll have adjustability and rideability in all gaits, but specifically canter, and by having that you'll be safe over fences.

It is literally like worrying about jumping when you (generic) haven't learnt to walk.

I'd find a good trainer and go back to basics with the scales of training. The more solid your foundation the easier subsequent steps are. Confidence comes from good experiences and from a lot of your posts it reads (my perception and could be very wrong) as though there is a vein of nervousness/fear and *my* perception is that there are blocks missing from your foundations. If they were solid then things like that pole exercise wouldnt escalate and go as badly as you described.

 

[Birker2020]

Many years ago when I used to compete BS or BSJA as it was know then, I was totally shell shocked a the height of the fences, they all looked much bigger and more solid than the unaffiliated efforts I'd jumped previously. I can remember thinking they were HUGE. Yet my horse would jump so much better the higher they were.

I used to find that it was useful for my confidence to book course hire at the local riding club although most of the posh or brightly coloured fences were substituted with poor flimsier fences and poles.

Way back they used to always do an unaffiliated class first thing before the British Novice which was always smaller and quite useful. I used to use it as a warm up for British Novice and then used to use BN as a warm up for Discovery when I was comfortable with the height of BN. They even used to offer a return of the entry fee if you were the first one in the clear round as people used to faff about warming up or drinking coffee and the judge and course builder were anxious to start the 'real' classes for the day
This is us doing a clear round before the first class of the day.

 

[Fluffypiglet]

I watched your video without any intention of commenting as I'm very far from an expert. However, to my mind it looks like she's making life more difficult for you then it should be. I used to do some jumping and knew it wasn't great but wasn't sure why. Have lessons with an actual SJ (and generally excellent horseman) and he took us right back to poles on the ground and we jumped nothing for ages. We can now jump a heady heights of 80/90 but often do smaller. We had to a)teach horse to really understand leg pressure and b) help him realize that he has to take some responsibility for getting over a pole safely! 18mths on having had weekly lessons, i have a horse who, whilst still prone to very hot moments actually calms down when I give him a 'leg cuddle' (love it!)
He is now very very adjustable in his canter (which is what is possibly missing for you?) so I'm completely in control even if he's having a moment and we both know what we need to do. Leg cuddles work if he's being a dick out hacking too ?.

It was a very long and boring process and there were times when I was confused about why we couldn't progress more quickly but it was about teaching horse to accept my aids much as teaching me about how to approach a jump.

Anyway, as noted I'm in no position to give advice but that's my experience with my grey fruit loop - take from it whatever you want!!

 

[Michen]

Interesting, I didn't think the lines were that bad but I haven't properly jumped for over 18 months and can't jump for toffee

She does remind me a little of Boggle in the sense of being weak behind and attempting to use speed to compromise for it, but I don't feel Bog "fights" me the way she is with you and he tends to stay in a fairly nice rythm even if the canter sometimes isn't as good as it could be. He jumps much better over bigger fences (not with me as I can't jump anything big) as he actually has to think a bit more about what he's doing and not be so arrogant.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I feel your pain!

A few comments to add to some very good advice above. I did the clock exercise with Toby and it was a car crash. I felt very deflated but then my lovely RI talked me through what happened. Basically he hit a fence and went to pieces and for him, figuring it out eventually by tripping over, was not a good idea. He is too sensitive. So he got upset and started rushing and stopped thinking and just got worse and worse. I also tried the stop after fences to address the rushing which just got in the way of rhythm. Not saying don't try that, just that did not work for us!

However in my next lesson we did an adapted clock face. 3 canter poles on a circle at A and C then a fence at B and E. Our arena is 50m long so A and C were quite a way away from E and B to give us room for this. We would do the poles to establish the rhythm then pop the fence then the poles to re-establish the rhythm. Then eventually came inside the poles to jump just at B and E on a 20m cicrle which he did well once it had been set up for success.

That is why a good instructor on the ground is a godsend - they can read the horse and choose the right exercise. Stoppping after fences was a good exercise for Amner but not Toby.

As for heights of fences, they grow and shrink dramatically with groqing and shrinling confidence. And confidence will come with having good form, rhythm and balance at lower heights. My rule of thumb is to keep fences low enough so that I can ride them well, (as well as my ability allows anyway) then lock in that feeling and ride bigger fences exactly the same way. Once you start using 'fear' behaviours like gripping, tipping forward, chucking the reins away, hanging on etc then the jumps will feel horrid and look bigger again.

Good luck x

 

[Rowreach]

Canter canter canter. I’d be setting up a course of poles on the ground between wings and working on a consistent canter from start to finish. When I had that I’d progress to raised poles etc etc. If I lost the canter I’d go back a step. I wouldn’t worry about proper jumping until the canter was properly nailed.

Like others, it’s a flatwork issue at base, but you can keep your flatwork jump related.

 

[sportsmansB]

It honestly is the quality of the canter and not the height of the fences.
I gave my horse a jump for the first time in ages this morning, and from the beginning we had 'the canter' - met every fence perfectly, smooth turns, perfect distances, and finished over about 1.10 which for me is massive but for once I didn't even yap when it went up as I felt today like I could have jumped the moon.
It is absolutely no coincidence that we have spent the last 3-4 weeks with me pretty much riding on my own, so I won't jump for safety reasons, but I will do flatwork and cavaletti. You need to be able to vary your canter on the flat (jumping canter is about half way between small canter and a good forward medium for us) and practice practice practice over cavaletti and poles on the ground until you get your eye in. I don't know how you could see a stride if your canter rhythm varies massively, it would just end up a mess of chip in / fire them at it.
Try not to think about changing anything for the height of the fences, ride the 70cm as though they are 1.10 - you need that better canter all the time so it becomes the only one.

 

[Birker2020]

grids are really useful to set you up on a metered stride that can't change because the jumping will fall apart... can you set yourself up a simple confidence boosting and canter-regulating grid and then ride from that directly into a short course? it would mean you set off with the correct feel and then if you can maintain it the rest should come easier?

I used to love grid work, it was my favourite. I used to be on a yard where no one would appear until an hour after I'd arrived so I had plenty of time to groom, tack up, build a grid and warm up before anyone else even came through the gate. Then I used to pop them twice in both directions and call it a day.

Our menage was huge so I used to be able to build a couple of bounces to start and then a one and two non jumping stride distance. I used to set them all up and just jump them and not introduce new fences each time to the existing ones, but my horse was very experienced in grid work so it didn't really matter. I used to set them about 2ft 9 to 3ft 3 with the bounces smaller efforts and I used to make the distances a bit shorter to encourage shoulders.

Grid work is really good fun, it's good for giving confidence to both horse and rider, and you can alter distances according to how experienced your horse is. It also increases suppleness and makes you both more balanced. It can make a lazy horse more forward thinking and encourage a horse who jumps too fast to slow down as you can make distances shorter so the horse slows down as it is coming deeper at the fences.