When is a Dealer, not a Dealer

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BigRed

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I am trying to buy a new horse. I would prefer to buy from a private owner, who has owned the horse for a while. I keep phoning up adverts which are supposed to be private sellers and all I get are people who are really dealing, but on a small scale, or are selling on behalf of a client - to me that still means they are a dealer, but they are trying to wriggle out of their legal responsibilities.

Aaarghhh - why can't people tell the truth.
 
I am not a dealer... My OH breeds jumpers, and him and his dads business is to sell them once produced to a cirtain level. So I would not class them as dealers either... But many would... I went to buy a horse for myself once with father in law so he could check it out too, it was just for me to plod about on and jump some amature classes on, I loved it, really wanted it and on the way home from viewing it called the owner and offered her the full asking price and wanted to book a vetting...She then told me ' In no way on god's earth will I let you buy my horse... ( father in law ) is a dealer and you just want to re-sell it for a huge profit!!!!! ' I was so annoyed, she knew who we were when we called and arranged to look at the horse, and it was for me to have as one of my 'pet' horses. Nothing to do with the business. It's so annoying!!

I am also selling a horse for a very good friend at the moment, she works full time and has 2 kids ( 1 of which is autistic and requirres alot of her time ) and just doesn't have the time to deal with the phone calls... Would you then class me as a dealer? I am simply doing a favour for a friend....

xx
 
Your husband and father in law are most definately dealers, you breed horses and sell them, it is your business. You are also dealing because you are selling a horse for a friend. There is nothing wrong with this - just tell the truth.
 
tracey01 said:
Your husband and father in law are most definately dealers, you breed horses and sell them, it is your business. You are also dealing because you are selling a horse for a friend. There is nothing wrong with this - just tell the truth.
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How is it then that they are not classes as breeders...We do not sell anything that has not been bred at home ( other than maybe 2 or 3 a year that are taken in part exchange ) ...

As for me... I am a private owner doing a favour for a friend, the horse is not at my house, I am meerly taking the phone calls and arranging appointments. I am recieving NO MONEY for doing this...
 
I have a livery yard, I have 4 horses of my own, I have never sold one of my own horses and there are 10 horses on livery. I have a friends horse here to sell because her marriage has broken down. I am not a dealer. But would I appear to be a dealer if you rang me as I am selling on behalf of my friend?
 
no Bosworth id say not,

I think the law is you need to sell 6 horses in a year not four.. but saying all this about dealers, ive just restarted a business (lack of own yard put a dapner on things for a year)
yes i have sales liveries but for example my mare ive had for 12 months and she is now for sale.. im not always trying to make a quick buck. ove the winter i will buy a couple of youngsters to play with then sell in the spring. my high turnaround again is the sales liveries.

at the end of the day though... im still a dealer of horses arnt I??
 
Bosworth if you explained the situation I cannot imagine people would think you were a dealer. I must add that I have bought some great horses from dealers over the years.
 
To me, yes you would appear to be dealing. You own a small livery yard and you have been sent a horse to sell. So you in fact, dealing. It might not be something you do often, but in this case it is clearly what you are doing.
 
For me a dealer is someone who BUYS and SELLS horses as a business. A breeder is someone who BREEDS and SELLS horses as a business. Someone selling one horse on behalf of a friend was no intention of making a profit is not a dealer, they are just an intermediatory.
 
I suppose you could class me as a dealer, I buy and sell a few, although they do spend a considerable amount of time with me beforehand (more than 6 months)...
With the cheaper ones, my adverts appear as private, the reason is simple - majority of cheap/free advertising websites become considerably more expensive if you tick the 'trade' box. If you ring or e-mail me, I make it absolutely plain obvious that I bought the horse to sell and do it in the course of business.
 
Absolutely wrong - I am not a dealer, I am a private seller simply selling on behalf of a friend who has no facilities to keep her horse or show it to a potential buyer. It is one horse, I have not sold another horse. My yard is at my own private house. the livery yard is just that - a livery yard, not a dealing yard. Yes horses have been sold from here - private horses sold by their own private owners - not by me. My business rates for the yard are classified as livery yard. My insurance classes me as a livery yard. When the horse sells the contract will be between my friend and the purchaser - not me - I am just going to be the intermediary.
 
Silverspring said:
For me a dealer is someone who BUYS and SELLS horses as a business. A breeder is someone who BREEDS and SELLS horses as a business. Someone selling one horse on behalf of a friend was no intention of making a profit is not a dealer, they are just an intermediatory.
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My point exactly... Thank you, People are so quick to judge. Not ALL dealers are dodgy ( yes some are dreadful but not all ) As a dealer, you would be buying the horse and selling it relitivley quickly, as a breeder you have owned the horse from the second it was born and know everything about it! Obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but it does make me cross when people judge so quickly. IMO private sellers are 50% of the time more bloody dodgy about selling horses, after all, there is quite often no comeback with them.

xx
 
EgerdenFarmStud said:
My point exactly... Thank you, People are so quick to judge. Not ALL dealers are dodgy ( yes some are dreadful but not all ) As a dealer, you would be buying the horse and selling it relitivley quickly, as a breeder you have owned the horse from the second it was born and know everything about it! Obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but it does make me cross when people judge so quickly. IMO private sellers are 50% of the time more bloody dodgy about selling horses, after all, there is quite often no comeback with them.

xx
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im not saying your a dealer but as you do trade in horse are you not governed by the same trading laws as actual dealers?
 
Off topic slightly but these are the sort of set-ups (Egerdon, Martlin etc) I prefer when looking for horses. Generally these sellers know their horses inside out, are more experienced than the average private home and are not usually purely looking for the biggest profit - in my experience they are more focused on finding the right horse/rider combination than some mainstream dealers. I would not be put off from trying out any of the horses mentioned in the thread - these people are being honest about what they are selling and why they are selling!

Saying that, my current horse is from a large showjumping dealers.
 
EgerdenFarmStud said:
IMO private sellers are 50% of the time more bloody dodgy about selling horses, after all, there is quite often no comeback with them.
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I couldn't agree more, I prefer to go to dealers or breeders for my horses, the private market is a minefield. I feel dealer has become a dirty word but I'm not sure why, yes there are some bad ones but there are some bloody good ones too. A good dealer would never risk their reputation by selling a horse that was not fit for purpose or not suitable for the rider. A lot of these people take enjoyment in finding you a horse that you can have fun on, they aren't all just out to make a quick buck. Breeders are the same some bad but many are good, I just don't understand the negative attitude towards these business people.
 
If a person sells 4-6 horses a year, is that person classed as a dealer? Does it affect the rates of the yard (which the person uses but does not own)?
 
The '4 - 6 horses a year makes a dealer' thing is actually not the case and is a bit of a myth. It CAN be used as a guide but other factors are also required to prove or disprove whether a person is trading.
 
I have not read the entire thread but it is something that comes up regularly. Please, please, please, be assured that there is no specific number of sales that make you a dealer or not. It is all fact/case sensitive. You could for instance set yourself up in business as a horse dealer and that alone will make you a dealer and subject to the laws relating to dealers i.e. commercial sales and Sale of Goods Act. Even if you only sell one horse that is enough. On the other hand, you could be a mother of six children who all outgrow their ponies at once and you want to sell all six. This would not make you a dealer. You are a private individual with a number of ponies to offload all at the same time. There are guidelines which a court looks at in determining as a preliminary issue whether or not a person is a trade/commercial seller/dealer and depending on how the court decides it will then go on to apply the relevant law. And yes, I am a solicitor, 20 years qualified and yes, I do horse cases.
 
Cariad may want to add to this but you can also get the situation where you are acting as agent for the seller and that again brings with it responsibilities and liabilities. Don't know enough to say when you legally become an agent if you are selling for a friend as opposed to a dealer selling on behalf of a client.

I didn't meet the owners of any of my horses - they were all at yards where the yard owner showed them to me and in four cases negotiated through the yard owner. Only for the last horse did I negotiate with the owner themself but still didn't meet her at the time.
 
The law of agency is very complex. Couldn't possibly go into all the ins and outs here, except to say that once again it is usually fact/case sensitive. At the one end you could have, for instance a genuine principal/agent set-up, where someone sells on behalf of another and money changes hands for that purpose, i.e. a percentage of the sale price for instance. At the other, you could have been held up in traffic and asked your mother just to get the horse out to show someone until you get there when you'll take over. This is unlikely to be a principal/agent scenario. These are only hypothetical examples, mind and you never know in reality what a judge is going to find, which is why it's often best to keep away from courts if you can!

The best thing in any circumstances is to keep it simple. One seller, one buyer. A price. Paid in cash, banker's draft or by cheque, horse doesn't leave yard till cheque fully cleared. You should see some of the complexities - payment by lump sum of £500.00, plus my trailer, then I'll pay you weekly £20.00 a month for the next 10 months, then when I sell my yearling I'll pay you the balance from that as long as I get enough for it etc, etc. Nightmare.
 
No. Doesn't work like that but too complex to explain in detail here. Best I can say is that if you set yourself up in business buying and selling horses you take proper advice from a suitably experienced solicitor (not me, I don't do that sort of work, but my colleagues do). If your own yard is a business, then yes, you will probably need to pay business rates, but if you are doing it from a livery yard then your livery yard may already be paying those as a livery business but have no idea you're trading on the side, which is a separate issue and one you're probably not allowed to do. Livery yards need to have very clear contracts with their liveries, which a lot don't and causes no end of problems. If I had a pound for every time I've asked the question "What does your livery contract say?" to be met with the response "We don't have one" I could have retired by now. There are some yards which exist which allow a certain number of boxes to an individual to run a sales business, but each needs to be very clear as to the extent of their responsibilities and duties in writing.
 
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