When to bit up !?

[Lilly-Mayspookatbags]

As the title says really … at what point do you think oh this horse needs a stronger bit?

I find it’s such a taboo thing to have anything other than a snaffle on a horse now. No one believes in bitting up.

One of the last horses I loaned 3 ring Waterford gag and still pulled like a train (big Hanoverian ex hunt horse) Bit was owners choice.

1st horse I owned snaffle for everything and anything. Never needed anything more even xc and hunting (Big chunky ISH)

2nd horse I’ve owned is ex racer. Currently snaffle mouthed but flicks into race horse mode occasionally in canter (only in the school at the moment). At that point one rein stop is required otherwise looses her head and no way to regain control as she’ll jump anything.

Rode a young girls 13hh pony. My god did it pull my arms out. Snaffle mouthed but 0 respect for the bit in it’s mouth. Yet everyone says to keep it snaffle mouthed …

How do you know it’s a training/balance issue that can be worked through vs this horse is just taking the Michael?

Apologies if that has gone slightly rant like!

 

[Wishfilly]

I'd say it's pretty much always a training issue, in the sense it can be worked on with training- but that doesn't necessarily mean that a stronger bit isn't needed in some situations for safety in the meantime!

The thing I would say is e.g. with the 13hh pony, if it's youngish, and you bit up now, and it pulls, and gets into a fight with its rider, then eventually, if you don't address the underlying issue, eventually you'll need to bit up again... and again... and at some point you'll run out of bits (or at least bits I'd personally be comfortable giving a young kid to use).

It's easy for me to say, and harder for someone to do, but what happens if the pony is given nothing to pull against?

 

[AmyMay]

It’s not always a training issue. My horses have always been ridden in snaffles. Hunting, they went in something stronger.

 

[Snow Falcon]

Popped my sons 13hh into a jointed kimblewick after she realised that she was stronger than him. Worked a treat. The curb chain went missing one day-oh she knew!!!

 

[Lilly-Mayspookatbags]

I'd say it's pretty much always a training issue, in the sense it can be worked on with training- but that doesn't necessarily mean that a stronger bit isn't needed in some situations for safety in the meantime!

The thing I would say is e.g. with the 13hh pony, if it's youngish, and you bit up now, and it pulls, and gets into a fight with its rider, then eventually, if you don't address the underlying issue, eventually you'll need to bit up again... and again... and at some point you'll run out of bits (or at least bits I'd personally be comfortable giving a young kid to use).

It's easy for me to say, and harder for someone to do, but what happens if the pony is given nothing to pull against?

Said 13hh pony runs regardless of anything to pull against. Obviously lots of other factors to it. But naturally a very fizzy pony.

 

[Wishfilly]

Said 13hh pony runs regardless of anything to pull against. Obviously lots of other factors to it. But naturally a very fizzy pony.

My experience with those types is that a constant pull will just wind them up more- long term I'd be looking at trying to teach the pony to respond to weight/seat aids to slow up, and use lots of half halts rather than taking a proper pull. But like I say, I appreciate it's easier for me to say that than for a child to necessarily do it- and also it can be easier for an adult to get a pony to respond to those sorts of aids than a very lightweight child!

But if you bit the pony up, and it doesn't really work, or only works short term, where do you go from there?

 

[Spotherisk]

I found a change in the type of bit made a difference. French link snaffle to three ring gag - cob reared (in trot, the bit was not right for him), but a port mouth pelham made him light in the hand and easier to collect. Over our 26 years together we went from sweet iron French link (bore down on it), hanging snaffle French link (still a bit heavy in the hand), port mouth pelham (cob said finally I have tongue relief), and ended up in a hackamore.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

It’s not always a training issue. My horses have always been ridden in snaffles. Hunting, they went in something stronger.

I’ve always done this too, hunting or fast work change to a stronger bit.

My mare is in a snaffle 90% of the time but a fast hack with a few other horses, funrides or anything exciting I change to a universal bit.

 

[blitznbobs]

Snaffles for schooling , doubles for the show ring and what ever is needed hunting . I don’t ‘bit up’ for anything other than daft rules (showing and in the past higher level dressage) and extremely fast / exciting work where breaks can be an issue. Horses ‘pulling’ in an arena environment is a training issue for me

 

[LilMyPony]

i don’t know. My pony is in a Wilkie, she doesn’t seem to need the extra brakes (except when hunting) but I tried a few milder bits and she positively hated them.

 

[Red-1]

Mine are both great in a snaffle but I have no hesitation in bitting up for a specific reason. For example, Rigs can be a little bullish out hacking if he has a hesitant rider. I prefer the hesitant rider have a kimblewick so they are assured of him being polite.

BH is in a snaffle, bit I have used a pelham and kimblewick at times. When learning XC, he would sometimes load his shoulders and run on. I am older and small and prefer to be able to sit back and be effective if he is on his shoulders running downhill. It was a temporary thing, he was soon back in a snaffle as the lesson was learned. That said, since my husband died at the end of July, we haven't been XC schooling at all, and it may well be that a pelham features again while we refresh the etiquette regarding XC running.

TBH, we also used a kimblewick for SJ training. It again kept him off his shoulders so he could steer better and be more balanced. It is a shortcut. It worked. He now goes well in a snaffle SJ.

When we did a hunt ride, he was in a pelham. No regrets, when 40 off horses were cantering in front of him, the pelham helped me to establish that he listens to mummy, rather than simply run wild in the herd.

I would say though that it needs a rider with an educated hand, who doesn't keep a pull on the bridle, as well as the horse educating to understand the curb effect. I would only use on a horse who already understands how to find the release of pressure. I use a few times where there is no stress until I am sure that rider and horse know what they are doing.

 

[Rowreach]

Depends what you mean by a "snaffle", which could be any number of combinations of cheeks/mouthpieces/materials with multiple effects, and that's before you look at mouth and tongue conformation, level of training, ability of the rider.

If it's just a case of being able to stop, I'd rather someone used a bit that enables them to do that with a lighter hand than be hauling on a "snaffle".

It's also worth remembering that a lot of snaffles are not kind bits at all.

 

[HelenBack]

I think it should be a case of what suits the horse rather than the idea that a snaffle is always best. My young-ish ex-racer is still building up his strength and learning to work correctly. I tried to keep him in a snaffle because it seemed the right thing to do. Tried a few and he was okay in some but awful in others and he did tend to set against my hands. He has a very sensitive mouth and did get sores on more than one occasion.

Tried a universal thinking it would just be faster work and he prefers it on the bottom ring for everything, is clearly much more comfortable in his mouth, lighter in my hand and works in a better shape all round. If we decide to compete in dressage / ODEs then I know I'll have to find a snaffle to suit and I'm hoping as he gets stronger and learns to carry himself more that will be easier. For now though I'm just carrying on with what he's told me he prefers and I'll cross the snaffle bridge when I come to it. As said above definitely better to use this and have a lighter hand than be hauling on his mouth in a snaffle all the time.

 

[CobsaGooden]

I’ve started riding a friends pony who has started to get too strong for the kids (young teens). It’s definitely a training issue as the kids love to canter around and so pony now thinks this is their only speed.

She was in a single jointed d ring snaffle and she had zero respect for it. She hacked lovely but strong when upping the gears. I’ve switched it to a double jointed Wilkie which immediately had an effect and have done lots of schooling in the walk and trot with millions of transitions and halts. Not yet hacked her has weather hasn’t been in my favour but the pony is going so much better and the kids are back on this weekend so we’ll see what happens I guess! I’ve offered to give them a lesson but they don’t need it apparently and they are under strict instructions to not canter!

 

[paddy555]

I'd say it's pretty much always a training issue, in the sense it can be worked on with training- but that doesn't necessarily mean that a stronger bit isn't needed in some situations for safety in the meantime!

The thing I would say is e.g. with the 13hh pony, if it's youngish, and you bit up now, and it pulls, and gets into a fight with its rider, then eventually, if you don't address the underlying issue, eventually you'll need to bit up again... and again... and at some point you'll run out of bits (or at least bits I'd personally be comfortable giving a young kid to use).

It's easy for me to say, and harder for someone to do, but what happens if the pony is given nothing to pull against?

I agree. When I was in this situation with a 15hh cob he simply wouldn't stop with a bit (snaffle) it was due to poor training before I met him, fear of men. He wasn't taking the Mick he just either didn't understand or had no respect for the bit. He was ridden on open common with others so had to stop.
Everyone told me to bit up. As I had zero idea of anything I removed the bridle and put reins on a head collar. And he stopped. I moved onto an English Hack. as I wasn't allowed to take rides out on him in a headcollar. He still stopped.
When I rode alone I just rode, out on the common, with a rope around his neck.
I had stopped giving him anything to pull against and he stopped resisting and started to listen.
I don't think it is a case of biting up or biting down but of finding what works for a particular horse both in headgear and the circumstances in which it is ridden . That might be a lot easier for an adult than for kids who just want to charge.

 

[irishdraft]

I had a livery who was extremely proud of the fact she hunted in a snaffle & a cavesson noseband, trouble is she seemed to miss the fact she constantly hauled on said animals mouth so he ended up with no mouth and consequently nearly killed her. I think you bit for what you are doing, I did actually have a horse I hunted in a snaffle but I also had one who needed a Waterford gag so its not a failure or training issue using a stronger bit in certain situations.

 

[rabatsa]

I rather like to use a pelham with double reins. With a lot of cobs it is far kinder than a snaffle. However I was brought up with double reins and how to use them.

 

[Annagain]

I totally agree it's a training issue 95% of the time but there are circumstances where all the training goes out of the window and you need to be safe. Archie was in a hanging cheek mullen mouth snaffle 95% of the time but if he was doing something exciting (beach rides, fun rides, xc and hunting), adrenalin would take over and nobody stood a chance of holding him in that. He was well schooled, would move and stop off the leg and seat most of the time but when he got over-excited, his brain would just switch to run mode and that's all he wanted to do. We couldn't replicate the situation in a training environment so couldn't school it out of him and we had to be safe so bitting up was the only option. We tried so many and eventually settled on a waterford 3 ring gag with two reins. He was much happier in that than several supposedly less harsh bits and most of the time I'd ride him on the top rein, only picking up the emergency handbrake when I needed it. A light hold on that was enough for him to be a pussy cat, it was far better than hauling on other pretty strong bits.

 

[Cortez]

Ah, the ol' "snaffle good/curb bad" dichotomy. Truth is that any bit you are having to haul on is not good. Far better to not to have to pull on a so-called stronger bit than to abuse the horse's mouth (and horsemanship in general) whilst believing you are being "kind". The snaffle is supposed to be a starter bit for young horses which are then educated to the higher echelons through the double bridle, but I realise that many people will not aspire to such giddy heights and just want to be safe and in control.

 

[Squeak]

Mine are both great in a snaffle but I have no hesitation in bitting up for a specific reason. For example, Rigs can be a little bullish out hacking if he has a hesitant rider. I prefer the hesitant rider have a kimblewick so they are assured of him being polite.

BH is in a snaffle, bit I have used a pelham and kimblewick at times. When learning XC, he would sometimes load his shoulders and run on. I am older and small and prefer to be able to sit back and be effective if he is on his shoulders running downhill. It was a temporary thing, he was soon back in a snaffle as the lesson was learned. That said, since my husband died at the end of July, we haven't been XC schooling at all, and it may well be that a pelham features again while we refresh the etiquette regarding XC running.

TBH, we also used a kimblewick for SJ training. It again kept him off his shoulders so he could steer better and be more balanced. It is a shortcut. It worked. He now goes well in a snaffle SJ.

When we did a hunt ride, he was in a pelham. No regrets, when 40 off horses were cantering in front of him, the pelham helped me to establish that he listens to mummy, rather than simply run wild in the herd.

I would say though that it needs a rider with an educated hand, who doesn't keep a pull on the bridle, as well as the horse educating to understand the curb effect. I would only use on a horse who already understands how to find the release of pressure. I use a few times where there is no stress until I am sure that rider and horse know what they are doing.

This pretty much, if used as a training tool they can have their time and place. Ideally everything should be fixed with schooling but it's not always practical or possible or the kindest way.

I think a really good independent bit fitter is invaluable if you're wanting to change bits as it can help to make sure you've looked at all avenues and nosebands etc too and use the bit that's right for the horse and the situation. I had a horse I spent ages schooling and I wish now looking back I'd had a bit fitter out and tried something different to help us to get to where we needed to.

 

[IrishMilo]

I haven't read all the replies but the 'it's a training issue' mentality a lot of people have really irks. It might be a training issue. It might just be that the horse is slightly too full of itself and needs reminding of some ridden manners... I don't care what the issue is - if I can't pull the horse up, that's a safety problem for the both of us, and I will absolutely put a stronger bit in to rectify that. There is nothing worse than riding a horse in a snaffle and you have zero leverage, your arms are being pulled out your shoulders and the horse gets a sore mouth from constant pressure.

 

[Cortez]

I haven't read all the replies but the 'it's a training issue' mentality a lot of people have really irks. It might be a training issue. It might just be that the horse is slightly too full of itself and needs reminding of some ridden manners... I don't care what the issue is - if I can't pull the horse up, that's a safety problem for the both of us, and I will absolutely put a stronger bit in to rectify that. There is nothing worse than riding a horse in a snaffle and you have zero leverage, your arms are being pulled out your shoulders and the horse gets a sore mouth from constant pressure.

Whilst completely agreeing with using the bit that works, it really is a training issue. It's just that a lot of people are neither willing nor capable of doing the necessary work.

 

[eahotson]

Ah, the ol' "snaffle good/curb bad" dichotomy. Truth is that any bit you are having to haul on is not good. Far better to not to have to pull on a so-called stronger bit than to abuse the horse's mouth (and horsemanship in general) whilst believing you are being "kind". The snaffle is supposed to be a starter bit for young horses which are then educated to the higher echelons through the double bridle, but I realise that many people will not aspire to such giddy heights and just want to be safe and in control.

Well said.

 

[Irish Sally]

I start and ride all my horses in a snaffle. If we're going hunting I'd always put them in something stronger for the first few days. Then i can decide if they need it.I'd also sometimes ride in a stronger bit at home to teach the odd horse to stop better. I'd always go back to a snaffle though.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

If I jump Lottie in a snaffle she fights me and I have to have much harder hands. If I jump her in a pelham she stays soft and so do I. I'd like eventually to get softness in the snaffle, but till then I'll stick with the pelham.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

When I bought the Draft mare, she had a French link snaffle on a too small bridle. I put her into a bigger bridle which helped but then swapped to a NS Universal with 2 reins and a curb strap. She was a big, strong girl who had run away with her previous, novice owner but had done RDA prior to that. She went very well in the Universal and knew that if she tried to ignore my aids, I would pick up the curb rein, so she stopped trying to ignore me.

 

[Cortez]

This cultural weld to the snaffle is a peculiarly UK thing, everywhere else it's regarded as a basic, indistinct, blunt instrument that is really only for baby horses, a bit like training wheels on a bike. The idea of threatening a horse with a pelham I find rather strange. I have actually never had a horse that preferred to be ridden in a snaffle, but I realise that what I did with my horses is not the norm here (displays of historical riding and film work, competitive dressage before that). It's a shame that more people don't know the refinements available in feel, ability to communicate and to aid the horse's balance when not having to haul on the reins like anchor ropes.

 

[eahotson]

This cultural weld to the snaffle is a peculiarly UK thing, everywhere else it's regarded as a basic, indistinct, blunt instrument that is really only for baby horses, a bit like training wheels on a bike. The idea of threatening a horse with a pelham I find rather strange. I have actually never had a horse that preferred to be ridden in a snaffle, but I realise that what I did with my horses is not the norm here (displays of historical riding and film work, competitive dressage before that). It's a shame that more people don't know the refinements available in feel, ability to communicate and to aid the horse's balance when not having to haul on the reins like anchor ropes.

I do know in western riding horses are started bitless then the snaffle and ultimately a curb.This though is only possible when rider and horse are sufficiently educated and the curb is used very lightly.It is refined riding and schooling Few of us though will get to that stage

 

[LEC]

As with everything it’s nuanced. Rider experience, horse, issue, training level etc. I have had 4/5yo I have put Pelham’s to help with a schooling issue and then gone back to a snaffle. I have horses who need to change bits for different jobs, I have other horses who do same thing in same snaffle. Hunting, I prefer not to have my arms pulled out. Xc I try and train them to stay in as little as possible.
Need to decide what changing the bit will bring to the party and whether it will improve things or more training will. Also depends on job and end result needed as no point having a horse go well in a Pelham longer term if you want to do Prelim/N dressage.

 

[oldie48]

It's not the bit in the mouth, it's the hands holding the reins. I know a hunting "lady" who loves to put people down by saying if you can't hunt in a snaffle you shouldn't be out. What a load of patronising hogwash! You need to be safe. I've got friends who are competing at a decent level and they use the bit most suitable for the horse and what they are doing. Snaffle for dressage (or a DB), and sometimes something a lot stronger for XC or possibly SJ. Yes great if your horse goes well in every situation in one bit, saves a load of money and inconvenience but really sensible to use something that the horse respects and keeps both of you safe.